Addressing Imposter Syndrome

Full Transcript

Jaime Hunt: [00:00:00] Hi. I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make. I suffer from imposter syndrome. Despite having worked in higher education for 18 years, being award-winning and having a great career, I still sometimes feel like I'm bluffing my way through this whole thing, and I know I'm not alone. That's why I'm really excited about today's guest.

We're gonna be talking about imposter syndrome and how to defeat it.

Welcome to Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo, the podcast design for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jaime Hunt, and I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration with Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. [00:01:00] With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education marketing.

After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by using the hashtag higher ed cmo. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at @jaime Hunt imc. That's J A I M E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to connect.

Today I'm really excited to have Tracy Playle, who is the CEO of Pickle Jar Communications on the show to talk about imposter syndrome. Hi 

Tracy Playle: Tracy. Hi. It's nice to be here. Thanks for having me. It's 

Jaime Hunt: so great to have you on the show. I, this topic came up when I was first talking about topics for confessions of a higher ed cmo, and it seemed to really resonate with.

My followers on Twitter. Um, a lot of [00:02:00] people suffering from imposter syndrome, so, um, definitely wanna have some chat about that today. But first, can you tell me a little bit about your career journey? . 

Tracy Playle: Yeah, I'd be happy to. Um, so I've worked in higher ed for about 20 years now. Um, in fact, coming up for 20 years in about the next month or so.

Um, I guess I should celebrate that in some way. , uh, haven't decided yet how it, how yet. So, um, I started my, my career, um, as a failed PhD student. I actually started a PhD at the university that I ended up. I was working part-time in the communications office at the University of Warwick, and I decided that I was enjoying the work in university communications a lot more than I was enjoying my PhD.

Mm. So, um, I quit my research and decided that I would work in university coms instead. And so I spent the first kind of six, seven years of my career working in-house in a university and then, you know, doing various things across various communications, marketing, web, digital, social type roles, lots of broadcast PR type stuff as well.[00:03:00] 

And then in 2007, um, I decided to, Hop over into the consultancy side of things. I saw a real niche around that time, especially around social media consultancy in the sector, which in 2007 was basically everyone asking me how they could stop people talking about 'em online. Um, and it's changed somewhat since.

But from there it's kind of evolved much bro, much more broadly into content strategy. And now as the team at PICU are, we do a lot of content strategy and experience design work for the higher education sector. I'm also the founder of content ed, which is a community a. For people that work in content professions, content careers in the education sector.

And then a few years ago, following some personal experience, which I'm, I'm happy to say more about, um, if, if you wanna go there. But, um, I ended up, uh, deciding that I would, uh, complement my content strategy work and my leadership within my own company with. . Um, as well, I had had a couple of years of working with a coach and realized that it was changing everything [00:04:00] for me.

Mm. Um, in the way that I saw myself, the way that I thought about the world, but also in how I was leading and doing my work. And so, um, I spent a year. Uh, hopping back and forth across the, the Atlantic between the UK and New York training to, to become an ontological coach. Um, so I also have a private coaching practice as well alongside my consultancy work, which is how I end up digging into, you know, talking a lot to people about things like em, imposter syndrome.

And it is probably the number one conversation, the number one topic that I have in my work. Really? Yeah. I dunno if it's because people just see me as a, you know, as a, I've somehow carved this niche for myself in working in this space in imposter syndrome, or whether it's just because it's so, so pertinent in, uh, higher education, but also in the content strategy profession as well.

Um, that I think I probably do see a lot of it in those. Professions, industry sectors and also, you know, talk about it quite a lot. So I think there's become quite a lot of interest. But number one thing that people come to my [00:05:00] coaching practice around is, um, experience of imposter syndrome, wanting more kind of sense of purpose and um, and having the confidence to actually own their own kind of sense of purpose and, and being able to move with that and do something.

Jaime Hunt: That is really interesting and, and I guess it jives with the reaction when I first tweeted about this and how many people raised their hand and said, I have this issue. But for those who maybe don't know what imposter syndrome is, or they might have like the quote unquote symptoms of imposter syndrome, but haven't assigned a name to it, how do you define what imposter syndrome is?

Tracy Playle: Yeah, I mean, there are a few different definitions around it and the, the most common one that you'll see is, is that people have an experience of feeling like they're a fraud or that they don't belong, um, you know, literally that they feel like they are an imposter in a particular situation. Um, my own definition is a little bit kind of broader than, than that, um, because I think it does show up in different ways that doesn't always feel like a sense of feeling like a fraud or an imposter.

For me, I often relate to it [00:06:00] as being a state of mind where people don't believe that they are. Um, so really it's a conversation about enoughness and it's often a conversation about. How we perceive other people to be viewing us as well. And it, I think it's really worth saying as well when we're talking about imposter syndrome, you know, the word syndrome gives it quite a lot of weight and gravitas.

Like it's, it's not actually like a diagnosed syndrome, you know, it's not mm-hmm. really considered to be, um, you know, something that we would diagnose someone with like, like depression or anxiety or anything like that. But it is a very, very real experience, um, for a lot of people. And, and it really is just a form.

Of not feeling confident in the space that we're in, um, and not feeling that we are either ready to be there or that we actually belong there. Yeah, and it shows up in lots of different ways, particularly in meetings. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, I mean, particularly with people that are coming through their career and coming through their ranks and they have exposure to, to being in meetings with people who might be in more senior roles, um, you know, higher up the hierarchy, this perception of [00:07:00] like needing to perform or needing to show up a particular way will enter their space.

And, and then the kind of, you know, the, the nerves, the lack of confidence will creep in that they feel like they're not, they're not ready, that they get the fear of failure and like creeping or, um, all of those kind of things could, could show up. Um, and one of the, one of the, the, kind of the, the symptoms is, I think you just labeled it just now, Jamie, is, um, the fear of being found out.

Um, and that will often show up when someone feels like they're in a, a situation where they feel like they're being exposed or put on the spotlight in some way. So, you know, having to contribute to a meeting that they don't normally attend, speaking at conference or given a presentation to colleagues or things like that where it feels like we are put under the spotlight a little.

And that therefore there is, that, that risk or that danger of exposure, um, to be able to be questioned and therefore to be able to be found out as, you know, not knowing enough, not, um, not being prepared enough or whatever the, the variant of the individuals imposter syndrome might be showing up as being.

Jaime Hunt: Are there [00:08:00] certain types of people or demographics or professions where imposter syndrome is more likely to. 

Tracy Playle: This is kind of a yes and a no. I see it in people that you wouldn't necessarily expect to see it in. Um, and that's partly because in the work that I do as a coach, you know, I'm often very, I'm often privy to very confidential conversations with people.

So people will open up to me about their experience of it in a way where they won't necessarily speak up publicly, um, about it. So I think there is a lot of experience of it that people don't talk. And therefore there are a lot of people that we wouldn't necessarily expect would have it or experience it that do have.

Um, that said, there are definitely some, some patterns, um, around it. So some of the, the, the groups, if you will, that I, I see it showing up in one of them is people who are traditionally excluded, groups who are actually having to make the steps and the moves to actually belong in a situation that historically we would not have belonged in.

So women persons of color. People from a socioeconomic background that may not have [00:09:00] belonged. You know, I'm a, I'm a first generation person in my family, the first person in my family to go to university. So for me, a lot of it showed up from a kind of a social capital perspective of I didn't belong. So there's definitely the kind of the, the, the people who are led to believe that they don't belong by, by external factors and historical and ancestral factors that, that go on, that have always kind of had this voice of telling them that they don't belong or that they're not enough in a particular situ.

So that's definitely one, one group that I see that, um, occur quite a lot in, um, the other group that I see it a lot in, and this is why I think we see such a prevalence of it in higher education, um, is amongst high achievers. Mm. Uh, so, um, um, my, my personal belief, this is not based on any data, it's just kind of like the, the trends and the patterns that I see with the people that I work with is, It's less that high achievers end up getting imposter syndrome and more that it's the fact that we have probably, or always had a degree of imposter syndrome that lead us to become high achievers.

[00:10:00] Oh. So there's a kind of like a, you know, a cause and effect thing at play there that I think is, is happening. And I have a, I have like a secret theory that again, is just, it's a hypotheses, It's not based on any, any data. But I have a secret theory that a lot of academics have imposter syndrome. Um, and that the reason that they pursue academia, the reason that they, you know, climb that academic ladder of gathering more and more academic credentials and titles and, and everything that we can is actually a response to a degree of imposter syndrome and feeling like we have to prove ourselves.

Um, and when you actually start to notice some of the behaviors that you see in amongst faculty and amongst some of the, you know, people working in academia, you can actually see some of the, kind of the drivers and the signs of it, um, at play, even though they don't always talk about it openly. Um, so high achievers, uh, traditionally ex excluded groups, um, are probably the, the, the two areas that I.

Most people, um, experiencing it from, And then the, the, the third group really are people who have had some [00:11:00] kind of experience, um, probably in their childhood, um, that has, uh, told them that they're not enough. Mm. Um, or that they're not good enough. And, you know, speaking to my own experience of this, I mean, my, my dad most, you know, amazing dad in the world love him to bits, but he is, oh my God, he's perfectionism is.

Unbearable. And you know, when you grow up with a perfectionist parent, you are kind of, you're constantly exposed to that. Well, it's never gonna be quite good enough. And it's inevitable that you kind of extrapolate that to mean will I, therefore not good enough. And I've had to do a lot of work unpacking that in both coaching and therapy over the, the years to, to get some degree of resolution, um, around that.

Jaime Hunt: Hey all. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I wanna take a moment to thank my friends at Mind Power who are making season two of this Unify podcast. Possible Mind Power is a full service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly 30 years of needle [00:12:00] moving, provoking research, fueled creative, and.

Mind Power is woman founded and owned. W B E N C certified nationally recognized and serves the social sector, higher education, healthcare, non-profits, and more. The MINDPOWER team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experienced creators from market research to brand campaigns, to recruitment to fundraising.

The agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way. You can learn more about their work in the world by heading on over to Mind Power Inc. That's M I n D P O W E R I N c.com. And be sure to tell the crew that Jamie sent you their way. I have this like tightness in my chest as you're talking.

Cuz I feel like you, we may have the same father is what it sounds like . Um, but that, that, um, you know, bringing home a all a report card and being told well the classes weren't [00:13:00] hard enough or, um, whatever. Having that impact, my perception of myself and my ability at work, you know, 35 years later is just.

Kind of mind blowing. 

Tracy Playle: I, I know that I am very much not alone with it. And, you know, really a lot of this stuff of anything that we are speaking about is often a therapy based conversation. And I need to like, really out myself. I'm not a therapist, so I don't tend to go there with the healing side of the work around it, but most people have some degree of awareness as to where it probably has come from, um, in themselves.

And for most people, it will have been formed from something that happened in childhood. And of course our, our parents will. To, to show for that. And, you know, imposter syndrome, the term itself has only really been around since, you know, the kind of 1970s. So I was born in 1980. So really, you know, I'm kind of in that first generation that has actually really had it in our vocabulary, um, as mature adults to actually really grapple with it and understand it.

So I think, you know, it's fair to say that we can't really expect our parents' [00:14:00] generation to, to necessarily understand it as a concept or to recognize. What's, what's there with it, and most of them probably have a degree of it. My dad is probably a perfectionist because of something that happened in his childhood, you know, that said to him, You need to be perfect at everything you do.

So it's that this horrible kind of chain and knock on effect that we have, you know, through the different, the different generations that just perpetuate it. 

Jaime Hunt: Yeah, I, I often say that some of my trauma is caused by the fact that my grandpa fought in World War II and saw his friends killed in World War ii, and that that shaped how he parented and that shaped how my dad parented, and if I had kids, would shape how I parented.

And it's amazing how something like that just kind of snowballs really. Success of 

Tracy Playle: generations, we carry it in our bodies. We, you know, even if we are not actually aware of the situation ourselves or been exposed to those particular situations, I think we do actually carry it in our bodies and the experiences that we've had and the interactions that we've had with those people.

And we don't often do that [00:15:00] level of deconstructing to, to actually really understand what's going on there. 

Jaime Hunt: It's fascinating. So is there a career stage that you see this more in people or is it just across the gamut from. Early career entry level to presidents. 

Tracy Playle: The people that hire me kind of privately as a coach tend to be a little bit further into their career, largely because that's where the budget's going, but I definitely do see it a lot earlier stage.

I think at the earlier stage it's often. It can very, very easily be written off or dismissed as just being, that's how you should be early in your career. So I think we tend not necessarily to put it in the spotlight quite so much or to to work with it or to manage it or to, to seek ways of supporting those people to overcome it.

If anything, we might normal. It's normal that you're gonna feel scared going into your, your first meeting with the president of the university or whoever it might be. Um, and actually it doesn't have to be that way. So I think at the [00:16:00] earliest stages it's probably there, but it's more dismissed as a kind of just a lack of confidence and a lack of experience, rather than it actually being more about something that has probably carried free with them for much of their life.

I then think we kind of, what I see is we almost can get to like a, like a pivot point with it. For some of us, we've managed the symptoms of it well enough that we then get just enough confidence to actually vocalize that we have it and that we experience it. Um, And then it starts to look like we are kind of, um, healed from it.

If you were probably not, we probably just have coping mechanisms for it, right? Or we are just aware of it or we notice it. Um, but there is like this tipping point around actually having the confidence to kind of come out and say, Hey, I, I experience imposter syndrome. And that's been one of the beautiful things that I've noticed really over.

Um, the last few years, but, um, but definitely probably the last decade of my career is people actually talking about it more. Um, and, and [00:17:00] recognizing that it is very much a shared experience and what you were speaking to Jamie about when, you know, you tweeted about it and you suddenly got a lot of response.

Right. It doesn't surprise me at all because, um, there is a lot of, uh, A community and common understanding being built around it at the moment. And that's kind of a beautiful thing cuz that also gives us an access point. Even though it's coming from a slightly disempowered place, it does give us an access point to connect, to explore, to develop relationship around different points of being vulnerable with one another and to build community from, from that kind of place.

And it's a much more heart based place, which I think is really, really important. When we actually. In an industry, in a profession sector that is very head based a lot of the time, 

Jaime Hunt: are there ways that leaders might inadvertently, I don't know, further a feeling of imposter syndrome? Are there things that we should be coaching our teams, um, and our employees that might help them either not develop it [00:18:00] or address it earlier in their career, develop coping mechanisms earlier in their career?

Tracy Playle: It's a really fine line to tread with it, and we have to be a little bit careful, especially when we have experiences of it ourselves that we don't project our own experience of it onto other people. Um, and that's the thing I think to get mindful about. And so for, for me, the, the trick with being a leader that is working with people, um, that you might notice seem to be experiencing this or, you know, showing some signs in it, even if they're not articulating.

um, is to get curious about what's going on with them rather than to, to assume, um, and to project our own experience of it on them. And so I will often, you know, once I've kind of developed that safe space to have those kind of conversations with people, the thing that I'm often curious about is, What is the, the belief that they have about themselves that has this occur for them?

So generally it's like, um, we all have these like fears that we have about ourselves. None of them are true. They're all kind of these little sort of [00:19:00] micro lies that we've built up across our whole life. But they're things that we, we hold and we carry. And then we develop behaviors, coping mechanisms, if you will, that kind of shroud him.

And those coping mechanisms and those behaviors are often the first sign that someone that you will notice as a leader that someone has, um, a degree of imposter syndrome coming on. So some of the things to watch out for are, um, and they're really varied, so this is why, to get curious about it. You're gonna notice in some people that they get very, They won't speak up in meetings, they won't have their voice heard.

Um, other people, your notes that they diminish themselves. So they might say something brilliant, but they'll immediately caveat it afterwards with, you know, Hey, I'm saying this great idea, but here's 20 reasons why it wasn't a good idea. Or, you know, or, but don't listen to me. Or, That's just a silly thing.

Or, or they prefix what they're gonna say with, with something like, Um, the other, the other sign of it that I see a reasonable amount of is proven people that display lot of proven behaviors that they feel like they've gotta prove how intelligent they are, prove how great they are. Um, and they might like really, really [00:20:00] over reg it, um, as well.

Um, and the other sign of it that I see a lot of is what I call condition stacking. So condition stacking is a state of, um, I will be ready. Um, I will be confident when I have done 20 different training courses on this thing, I will be able to deliver that presentation when I've spent a hundred hours drawing over my slide deck.

You know, that kind, those kind of behaviors are often a sign of someone experiencing some kind of it. So the thing to notice is what the, what the behavior is that you're seeing. Um, and then to, you know, to to, in a very kind of, um, Loving and supportive way reflect that back to the person and get curious, Hey, what's that about?

I noticed that you, you are displaying some behaviors that, that feel like you feel you need to prove yourself to me. Like, what's that about? What you, what, what do you might be afraid of? And, and after a while they'll start to dig in that, into that. My, my own versions of it that the fears that I have about myself, which aren't true, but I explain, I display a lot of behaviors, may even be doing one of it right [00:21:00] now, is I have a fear that I'm.

Um, I have a fear that I'm lazy. I have a fear that I'm weak. I have a fear that I'm not lovable, like all of these kind of things. And we don't often put them on loud speaker, but what we do do is let our like internal bully kind of play that broken record over and over without ever really listening to what the words are saying.

Um, so when we are coaching and support, People in our teams or in our organizations around this. The trick really is to, to actually put it on loud speaker, um, and then to interrogate just how that thing, that fear that we have about ourselves just is not true. Um, and then when we realize that all of the behaviors that we are displaying that are the symptoms of imposter syndrome, um, are essentially founded based on a lie, then we can actually start to unpick and unpack them and choose a different way of.

Jaime Hunt: That is absolutely fascinating. Like the, the things that you shared about the different ways that it [00:22:00] manifests, um, the proving yourself thing. I have led people that have that tendency to do that and it can be a way that colleagues sort of feel like, Oh, he's such a know-it-all, or, Oh, he's always gotta talk about how great he is or whatever.

And, and I really wanna highlight. Like, you don't have to prove yourself to me conversation as being something that, um, not only benefits the person in terms of their perception of themselves, but also benefits them in their relationship with their colleagues. 

Tracy Playle: Absolutely. And like, you know, I, I see the way that you, you talk on online, on Twitter about the way that you, you think about your own leadership, and I know that you, you are one of the people out there that's really a, you know, waving the flag for being very empowering, um, as a leader.

And, you know, there are a few people in our sector that I think are doing a, a fabulous job of this. And the fact that you even run this podcast is a sign of it. Right. But, but for me, there's some really, there's some fundamental like, uh, planks that we need to lay with our teams that. We as a [00:23:00] sector and actually just in leadership as a whole, um, are not really used to lay in.

And there's a couple that I lay that tend to surprise people when they first hear me say it, and I'm not sure they really actually believe me when I, when I say it. So I then have to, you know, I have to prove, prove it to you. Imagine in a way. Um, and that those are two like basic principles when people join my company, um, or, or when they become a coaching client or, um, you know, when they become a consultancy client, the two principles are.

one is that I choose to love them. Hmm. I actually don't believe that love is something that needs to be earned or one, I actually believe that love is something that we have the choice to be able to give, um, to people. And love isn't actually a concept that we talk a lot about in the workplace because we are kind of like, Oh no, that's just for outside of work.

That's for my friends and family, but I don't actually believe that's true. So, First thing, when people join my company, I make it clear to them I love you and I've got you. So that's just a given. And I think sometimes that will just lay a bit more of a sense of, uh, psychological safety in the space. And the other is that I already [00:24:00] believe that you're brilliant.

Mm. Um, I'm not in this conversation. Um, because you need to prove to me that you're brilliant, like I already would believe. Now. Now that's the one where the imposter syndrome really creeps in because if they've got imposter syndrome, they are sat there telling themselves, Oh, but I'm not brilliant and Tracy thinks I am and that she's gonna find me out later on.

So that's still gonna run, but I still think it's on us as leaders to, to actually reflect, you know, to say out loud, um, I believe you're brilliant. I think we play this really kind of toxic game in the workplace. Waiting to be validated by someone and that we've got a bit of a social kind of perception that it's not okay to ask for validation or acknowledgement.

Um, so what happens is people kind of wait for it and the leader might not necessarily realize that someone's waiting for it, and then that person. Makes it mean that they are not any good at what they do because the leader has not given them the, the validation or the pat on the back that they need or whatever it might be.

So, so another thing that I'm really trying to normalize in the work that [00:25:00] I do is people actually asking for the validation and the acknowledgement that they need. Um, and for it to be okay to, to say to someone, Hey, I need some acknowledgement right now. Um, cuz there is always something that we can.

Always, I think, but we don't always realize that someone needs it, because especially people with imposter syndrome, they keep it really quiet that they need that. Yeah. 

Jaime Hunt: That is, uh, when, when you talked about that, I'm reminded of a time, one of my, um, team members at Miami, um, we had a sort of a, a coaching conversation.

Some behaviors needed to shift and change, but there were things about the person. It's, you know, 90% of what they were doing was great. And I really wanted to, um, stress that. Um, and this person at the end of the coaching conversation said, um, I, I, words of affirmation are my love language. So as you see improvements, can you let me know that you're seeing them?

And I thought that that was a so brave to do that. Um, and [00:26:00] so, so helpful to me, um, as a leader to understand this is what. Uh, this person, it's, it's that, um, that being told and reminded that I value this person and that this person brings great skill and that this person is making big improvements in the area they needed to improve in and all of that.

And that took a lot of bravery, I think. Do you feel like that's like kind of something when you coach people, are they a little anxious about asking for 

Tracy Playle: that? I think, you know, I think your reflection that it takes bravery for someone to say it, but I think also as a leader, it takes a lot of bravery to hear it.

You know, it's very easy for us to think we're a leader, therefore we know what we are doing. Um, therefore we know how things should be or how things should be done. And, and I, you know, I've had to have all kinds of breakthroughs in myself around this cuz like, yeah, I've kind of. Trod through life sort of thinking, you know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't need validation.

Like that's just needy if you need someone to validate you. And, and actually what I've realized is one of the reasons why I'm probably so triggered by people asking for validation is [00:27:00] because I'm actually really terrible asking for it myself, , when I need it. Right. So, um, so I think the thing to be aware of is like where we as leaders actually have our own edges around this stuff.

Like what are the things that people. Ask or in need of us that they are actually being very brave to ask, ask those things of us, how do we respond to it? Like we can look in our bodies or in our kind of, you know, the words or whatever we, however we react, and to get curious about ourselves. Like what is that?

Because we might be finding a new edge or a new growth area or in our own leadership. So I think that that bravery that you are speaking about is, um, it's like a. Right. It's kind of dancing with in the moment of them, them taking a step into them being brave, but you also being able to take that step into your own.

Being brave to actually listen and hear and adjust and adapt to what somebody else needs that might not actually be the same as, um, your own needs or the needs that you see in the rest of the team. And then having to normalize that for the rest of the team as well. It's okay for people [00:28:00] to, to their love language, to be completely different to the next.

Jaime Hunt: Yeah. I, I had shared when I transitioned, um, with the person who's an interim, um, the feedback that this person really. Needs external validation has asked for that. Um, so be aware of that, um, so that, um, she can, you know, continue that, that for him, which I think is really, really important. And I'm just sitting here struck by how most leaders don't get a training and how to be a, a good, empathetic and compassionate leader.

But I'm also struck by the idea and, and something happened yesterday and I feel really vulnerable sharing it on the podcast, but I'm going to anyway, um, I'm going to try to do it without crying Still listeners, I apologize if I do, but yesterday I was made aware that four sentences in an oped I wrote were completely plagiarized from another source and what had happened.

I, a year and a half ago, more than a year and a half [00:29:00] ago, I had created a bunch of notes about a topic. A bunch of them were just my free flowing slots, and some were copy pasted from something. But when I went back to them a year and a half later, I did not remember at all that I had copy pasted any of it.

I thought it was all just my free flowing notes. And so, um, when I was made aware, I was mortified, horrified. And, and beat myself up really bad all day yesterday. It was an inadvertent mistake. It was absolutely not intentional. I tried to be overboard with crediting and citing sources when, when I have that opportunity, but, um, I was beating myself up so hard over that and it sort of fed into like, Look, you are a fraud.

Like, look at you. You have to steal other people's words in order to be successful and to write something good. And my husband said, How would you treat a staff, one of your staff, if they made the same mistake? Why are you treating yourself so differently from that? And I think that that's. Know, that's [00:30:00] that sort of, I feel imposturous, I feel like a fraud.

I feel like people should stop listening to this podcast. I'm, I'm struggling with even recording today because of that feeling, and I just, I, I want other people to kind of hear what my husband's great advice was about, um, treating yourself with empathy and compassion when you feel in this sort of space and, and where you're feeling sort of vulnerable and.

Like, you miss the mark. Mistakes happen. People make mistakes, but for me, from the way I was raised, no, they don't. What are your thoughts on that, Tracy? 

Tracy Playle: The one thing that I, I really just wanna check in right now is that, I mean, firstly to, to acknowledge you and thank you for sharing and, and opening up about that.

Um, and I get it, like I've, I've made messes all, all over my career. I thank goodness that I've made messes, right? They're brilliant, they're beautiful little, wonderful messes, but really just, just to check in, like what do you need around it right now? I honestly, 

Jaime Hunt: I feel like. I need to hear, uh, from the [00:31:00] world or some, you know, something that, you know, you, you made a mistake and the world's not gonna end because of it.

Um, and you, because you were in a rush and you, you know, copy pasted from old notes, um, doesn't mean that you're a fraud, but. I don't know how to get there on my own, you know, like I, I feel a little better today than I did yesterday, but I'm, I'm feeling very, yesterday I just wanted to post on Twitter like y'all, I'm, I'm just done.

I'm, I'm a fraud and y'all shouldn't be paying any attention to me. Um, and I'm not sure how to get past that, to be honest. 

Tracy Playle: I mean, I, I would, um, I would explore it from, there are a few different perspectives of it. I mean, you know, one of the things to, to really be aware of is that we will quite often try and pass over our feelings and emotional responses to things quite quickly.

Um, so is to move on because they feel uncomfortable, right? If it was horrible to, to be telling yourself that you are a fraud, or you might sit without. For a little bit longer and just allow yourself to feel the feels or [00:32:00] to, to, to get angry or to be sad, or to cry or, you know, whatever you need around it.

And just to recognize that that is just part of your humanity. Um, and that my assertion is that it's the breadth of your humanity that makes you such a valuable member of this community. Um, and that's, that's all. Um, that's the sadness, That's the anger, that's the grief, that's the brilliance, that's the celebration, That's the, the happiness, the joy.

It's the whole thing. None of it is more valuable or less valuable than the next thing I would offer you just to, to hold that space for yourself and to ask for whatever you need in it. Um, you may actually find that there are a hell of a lot of people in your community where you, I'm sure. That, that are gonna tell you that you know, that what your internal bully's up to right now is kind of just making stories up.

In my style of coaching, we have these things called survival mechanisms and they're, they're a way of like labeling those predictable behaviors Mm. Um, that we have. And one of mine is called Virginia Wolf in sheep's clothing. Um, cuz [00:33:00] she's a, a very powerful storyteller that will tell me why I'm a terrible person and she'll make up the most amazing stories in the world to persuade me that I am just the worst person in the.

But there's another side to that coin of Virginia War, uh, Virginia Wolf in sheep's clothing. And that's that. She's a brilliant storyteller. Mm. And that's also why I'm a great content strategist and a great leader and a great public speaker and all of those things, right? So, so you might also take a look at what are the things about what your internal bully is up to that is also says something beautiful about you.

Um, my assertion is that it speaks to your compassion, The fact that you care deeply about this, the fact that you were diligent enough to sit there and take all of these wonderful notes and. You know, ultimately, like, you know, the construct of the human languages that we are all at any, any given time, we are all just taking these little bricks that are words and reconstructing them and just assembling them in a different way and doing something with them.

That's all we are actually up to the whole time. And that's all you did in that situation. It's just a few of those bricks we're already formed together [00:34:00] and it was like, you know, you're building a Lego toy and you just took a chunk that were already filmed, but that's. I promise no one, no one died.

Jaime Hunt: That's my, my husband was just like, Oh my gosh. when I was, you know, in, you know, crying, like, I can't believe this, you know, He's like, Nobody died. They fixed it. They, they took the, the article, they credited the source. Like, it, it's, you're okay. But yeah, it, it didn't help the imposter syndrome at all. 

Tracy Playle: But, but I do have, um, an actual activity and a, and a tool that I can kind of, you know, very likely talk through right now that I, that I do use a lot of people and I use it a lot myself, and it's such a simple tool that I'm at a stage now where I can just kind of use it in my head.

I don't even have to like write it down or speak it out loud. Um, and I do have to acknowledge this comes from the, the company that I trained with called Accomplishment Coaching. Um, so I'm not gonna like give the full details of it, but basically the, the, the tool is to take you through. You just get really present to the upset, um, around the thing.

Just get really, really present and allow all of the [00:35:00] feels and all of the emotions to show up and just let them be there for as long as you need them to me. And then you take a look at what are the facts that actually happened in, in this situation, and just the facts, and you report on them as though you are a Pulitzer winning journalist.

Like reporting on something with, you know, with the utmost integrity that you can only report on the facts and only. and you just distinguish that. And I, I typically find when I do this, the moment that you just let down to the actual facts, separate from all the emotions, the feelings, the things that you are making, it mean, you actually release a lot of the energy that that thing is holding on you.

And then from there where you wanna do it, where you wanna undos and take that energy that you have before, put it somewhere else. And the place to put it is around what is the highest and best thing I am actually committed to. Um, and it might, you know, it might be like I, my highest and best is that I'm committed to the exchange of knowledge or to sharing ideas or to amplifying the voice of other people, [00:36:00] um, or to whatever it might be.

My, my highest and best is Al always comes back to my, um, I have a purpose word. My purpose word is play. Um, so it's, and I find that I can always reenter myself back in that what am I really committed to in life? I'm really committed to being playful and being curious. Those two things. And then from. Okay, I'm gonna put the energy, take the energy away from the upset, gonna put it into the thing that I'm actually committed to now, what action do I want to take?

That's in alignment with my commitment, not an action that's in alignment with the, the story that you are telling yourself to beat yourself up with. Hmm. Um, I don't know. Do you see anything for yourself in that 

Jaime Hunt: framework? Yeah, that's, I think that's, That is really smart. Just the idea of the facts and I almost feel like I need to just like write, type up what the facts are.

This is what happened, this is how I reacted to it. This is what I'm gonna do to make sure it doesn't happen again, which I've processed, but I think. For me, I'm one of [00:37:00] those people that needs to hand write things to really have them solidify. And so I think that that's what I will do after we're, we're done here.

But this kind of segues me into another question, which is like, it feels like, quote unquote, healing from imposter syndrome is not a linear path that you're, you're gonna go in loops and circles, and has that been your observation? 

Tracy Playle: My observation and my personal experience, of it as well. And I mean, and I'll speak more about the personal experience to start with.

Like there are areas in my life where I have great coping mechanisms around it, and I feel good about it. Generally. I can relate to it as like a kind of, it's a little bit like that annoying friend, you know, that they're kind of, they're just a little bit annoying, but you love them and actually you kind of, you get a lot out of them being in your life.

So that's kind of, but the real way that I tend to, to relate to imposter syndrome and survival mechanism. and disempowering behaviors like this, it's like they're a pack of naughty puppies. Mm-hmm. , like, they're actually quite [00:38:00] cute and alluring, and we actually get, we are drawn to them, but when you, you look away for just a second and they're around the corner, kind of, you know, chewing the, chewing the co or, or you are remote control or whatever it might be, you know, they're, they're up to no good behind your back.

But the thing to recognize is that there's something, There's something about being in the state of believing that we're an imposter, that we keep coming back to. It's addictive, it's attractive, and it's somehow, actually, although this mounts up might sound counterintuitive, it makes us feel safe that it's almost safer to believe that we are not good enough than it is to actually believe that we are enough.

Part of the, the process is around like recognizing that, so not trying to, The thing that I will often encourage people to do is not try to remove the imposter syndrome cuz then what we are doing is we're making ourselves wrong for the fact that we even experience it. And if we get trapped into that narrative of, I am wrong to experience imposter syndrome, it actually plays back in and feeds back into that same.

Um, again, which is basically [00:39:00] that the narrative is, I'm not enough, I'm not good enough, um, I'm broken. Um, so what we need to do is we need to recognize and start to love on those parts and pieces of ourselves. So professionally, I'm really good at loving on my, my imposter syndrome. Now I just have a, I've just reframed the narrative.

Like it's, it's the part of me that wants to learn more. Mm-hmm. . Um, it's the part of me that wants to advance in a, a profession. , it's the part of me that's actually curious about what other people in the room might be thinking. Um, I just need to remember to tune that curiosity to it being about what they might be thinking about the topic that we're talking about and not what they're thinking about me.

I, I think 

Jaime Hunt: what I'm hearing you say there is it's imposter syndrome isn't just your professional, professional life necessarily, but also that you can be in different phases of understanding how to sort of cope with it. At the same time, a across different parts of your life. 

Tracy Playle: It's kind of fascinating to actually look at different parts of your life because that's gonna give you the access to, well, how comes it's, How comes it's okay over [00:40:00] there?

What is it? What are about the circumstances of that part of my life that actually make this manageable and make it be a comfortable experience for me, or a experience that I feel I can be with? And what is it about that experience over there that might be making this feel really disempower? Um, and debilitating for me and what can I learn from the experience that actually feels quite empowered right now and, and apply to that other area in my life.

So I feel like we almost need to look outside of the, the professional conversation. Um, cuz that's often the one that we do have it in. It's almost like it's okay to talk about in Posta syndrome professionally, but we tend not to speak about it. Quite say much from personal perspectives, but, um, when I work with my coaching clients actually, and we do the kind of the segue conversation, you know, where else does it show up?

Um, one of the areas that that is often quite fascinating to interrogate with people is, um, friendships. Hmm. Um, around how they show up with their friendship groups. Um, and it, it will show up quite a lot for some people in, in those spaces, Um, or it will not show up at [00:41:00] all. Um, and figuring out for them, you know, where they are, um, with their relationship to it in, in those relationships is, is really interesting to unpick sometimes when we wanna create a breakthrough for ourselves.

The idea of creating a breakthrough in the workplace feels like it's a very high gradient place in which to and a very. Uh, high exposure place in which to make that breakthrough. So sometimes when we are looking at other areas in our lives, we're actually looking at areas where we might be able to make like lower gradient kind of, um, like almost like training kind of runs mm-hmm.

to be able to build up to the thing. So I had a client recently who, in their professional life was just really noticing that they weren't able to ask for their needs to. Um, in anything but the idea of asking their clients to be meeting their needs was like they, they were not gonna go there and do that.

Um, but one of the areas that we, we recognized on pictures, another area in their life where they weren't getting their needs met was around, um, asking their family for them to be able to eat what they wanted to be for dinner. Like every night they were not eating what they wanted to be, even though they were doing all the [00:42:00] cooking.

Oh my God. So that was the area that we would create practices and exercises around, like having them start to ask for their needs to be met in terms of, Hey, I wanna have pizza. Um, and then once they start to build up the practice of doing it there, then we can start to build up the practice in other areas of their lives.

Is 

Jaime Hunt: this something that if you're dealing with this sort of asking for what you need, I mean, how do you build the confidence to be able to do that with your supervisor or with another colleague or, you know, how, what, what advice do you give people for getting to the point of feeling comfortable doing that?

Tracy Playle: It's such a great question and I actually, um, this is where the, the leadership dance kind of comes into play again, that we were speaking about. There's, there's something around the terminology that gets used that, that skews this for people slightly and the terminology that I think we trip over and we get confused around the differences between, um, what we need, um, needing help and asking for support.

[00:43:00] Mm. And those are D three different. And in the workplace, there's a bit of a tendency for people to say things like, How can I help you? Mm-hmm. , which you said from a really heartfelt place, full of compassion, full of all the best intentions in the world. But if you are on the receiving end of that, um, and you are in a imposter syndrome, me kind of swirl, how you might receive that is, Oh, you think I need help?

Oh, you therefore think I can't cope, or I can't, I'm not capable, or I haven't got this. So it can actually be a disempowering conversation. This is why there needs to be that breakdown on, on both sides. The, the, the question that I find is the, the, the, probably the more effective one is what do you need?

Mm-hmm. rather than how can I help you? Or how can I support you? So I, I realize that's not entirely asking your question cuz you are asking like, how do I, how do I express my needs when actually I'm kind of saying, well actually you need someone to ask you what you need. Yeah. Um, but you, you know, you might actually go in, into that conversation.

Frame it that way. Um, hey, I've iden simplified some things that I. [00:44:00] And I, I noticed that I'm making this mean a million things about me, and I can frame it that way. Like, oh, I've, I've, I noticed that I need a day off. And I noticed that I'm really, really worried boss person, um, opposite the table. That, that you are gonna think that I'm weak, that you're gonna think I'm prophetic, that you're gonna think I'm incapable.

Um, and maybe actually being really open and vulnerable about bringing that into the conversation so that they're actually fully aware of what actually is going on over the other side, um, of, of the table. Perhaps something. 

Jaime Hunt: Yeah, I, I usually try to frame when I'm talking to my team and try to frame it as, is there something you need that I'm not providing to you, um, to kind of say it's okay to tell me that I'm not hitting the mark with you.

Um, because I think that there's a certain level of responsibility that leaders have to be the one that says that, cuz it's it. As a person who also reports to someone, um, you know, it's, it, it's hard sometimes [00:45:00] to say I'm not, It feels like you're telling the person that they're not doing their job well, which maybe that that's not the case.

It's just they aren't aware of a need that you have. And so making yourself more vulnerable as a leader, I think helps and, and gets people into a different head space to be more vulnerable than back. 

Tracy Playle: And we have to be the clearing for that. So we, we have to start by revealing what our needs are. Um, cuz if we don't talk about our needs, then we are not creating a safe space for them to be able to talk about their needs.

You know, it's a little bit like being able to put your health and wellbeing first. I mean, like, I spent years being, being that boss who would. You know, throw out all the lines about how everyone should be healthy and protect their time and take proper leave and not work stupid hours and that kind of stuff, but all the mean.

In the meantime, I was working 90 hour weeks and it wasn't until I actually stopped doing that, that my team were able to then follow. And it's exactly the same in talking about our needs. So, You know, this is classic Brene Brown stuff, right? Really we have to show up as being vulnerable. Yeah. Um, before we can create that safe space [00:46:00] for them.

And you showing up in this podcast and talking about the, you know, the, the piece that you wrote and your, your fears about plagiarism and all that kind of stuff is modeling Exactly that. Thing. So we, we need to make those messes. We, we need to be able to do that stuff and we need to make our messes in the open, in front of our teams so that they actually feel that they can do the same.

And then engage in a conversation with us about like, and how are we, how do we wanna clean this up? Yeah. 

Jaime Hunt: So is part of overcoming imposter syndrome understanding where your strengths and weaknesses are and you. Is that, does that play into the conversation at all? Knowing like, I'm really good at this, but this is an area where I need more help with, but that the fact that I need help in that area doesn't mean I'm not good at the rest of it.

Yeah. . 

Tracy Playle: Yeah. And I would, I would try and, um, and I'm, I'm saying this from a really sort of elevated position because of the conversation we are in. And I'm not saying for a second that I would do this every day, but I would try not to use the word weakness. Mm. It's a language of being [00:47:00] less than. Um, I tend to look at it as being like the things that we are reliable for and not reliable for.

Um, And you know, I, I know that for me, I mean, in, in the coaching work that I do, we, we give, um, I do an exercise that gives people what we call their essence name. It's basically a five word, uh, description of who they are when they show up, there's their most brilliant version of themselves. And so, um, my essence name is, um, I'm Zeal, I'm leader, I'm integrity, I'm connection, and I'm mef.

So, I know that I'm pretty reliable for showing up as those things. There are definitely things that I am not very reliable for showing up with. Um, Grace, uh, is one of them, like humility, sometimes , like ease and flow and those kind of states of being like, I'm not really always reliable for them. So those are the ones that I might need to put a little bit more intention into thinking about them.

Are they weaknesses that I don't show up that way? They're just part of my humanity. Yeah, they're just part of their, what I refer to as the beautiful ridiculousness of human [00:48:00] beings. I know it's a cliche, but we'd all be boring if we were the same, so, mm-hmm. . So why label them as weaknesses? 

Jaime Hunt: We're all like our fingerprints.

We're all different, and that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't bring your best version of yourself to things or improve on things that you want to improve. 

Tracy Playle: There was a really cool, um, this was actually from when I was doing my my coach training program a few years ago. There was a really cool activity that we did, and this was, this is not something I do with my coach clients, but it's something that we did in as coaches training, um, to take a look at.

Uh, almost like states of being that you are very, very reliable for being, but they never show up together. Hmm. Um, one of them typically is very head based and one of them is often very heart based. Um, and mine, and it was, you know, very much reflected to me by my, my coaching colleagues. Um, mine is determined as being genius and delight.

So you will either get like the delightful version of me show up, or you'll get the kind of the intellectual sort of wisdom side of me show up. But those two things don't often show up together. So a [00:49:00] breakthrough for me as a leader is to, is to reconcile those two things and be able to have them in the space together.

And there are many, many times in my career where I can definitely see that one has shown up and not the other. So the delight might show up of me being like, really nice. To people and being a yes person or a people pleasing. And then when I'm doing that, I just feel completely disempowered or the genius and I, I have a slight discomfort with labeling it that way.

But the, the more kind of, you know, intellectual part of me definitely shows up if I'm giving people feedback on a piece of work where. Oh my God, I can be awful. I can be so brutal because I just like in, in service of efficiency, I'll just go like this, this, this, this, and this, and these's changing and I don't dwell on the things that are wonderful and beautiful and incredible and I have to like really, really think about that and really lean in to bring in the delight into.

Giving feedback to people cuz otherwise I can just be cutting and it's, you know, I, I recognize that it's not a nice experience for the person on the other side of it, but it's [00:50:00] taken me years of, of work to, to recognize that that's how I can be and to, to, to be, to have an access point to try and change something about it.

I 

Jaime Hunt: have loved every minute of this conversation. It's been so helpful. Um, but before we kind of wrap up, what it would be the number one tip that you would give a listener, um, who's struggling with imposter 

Tracy Playle: syndrome? There's a really great book. It's a by a lady called Nancy Levin and the book's called Worthy, Um, the book actually is pitched as sounding like it's about financial.

So you open this book thinking you're gonna, you're gonna read about how to make your money, ma your money sorted and get rich and all of that kind of stuff. Um, but in this book, there's just a line that just says, you know, it talks about a lot how we, we feel like we need to prove our worth. And there's a line that just reframes it all.

It just says, you are worthy just because you were born. Wow. Um, and I come back to that so often and I [00:51:00] think these are the areas for us to practice with our imposter. It's around walking into a room and saying, I'm worthy just because I'm here and I play with that. That sounds very heavy, like I've played with it.

I've got one client who now has a practice where every time they say something in a meeting in their head, after they say the thing in their head, they then go, That was brilliant. Hmm. Um, just to like validate, give themselves the validation. Yeah. Just to like, Cause they, they're busy kind of unpacking and beating themselves up just to go.

That was brilliant. And the other practice they took on that's been really working for them is to walk into a room and just believe that everybody in that room loves them already. Mm. Um, so those are the kind of things just to the, the wisdom that I would hopefully impart is that, you know, whatever the thing is that you want to actually practice believing that it's already.

Your worthiness, your brilliance, um, your enoughness, um, all of all of it. The love that it's all actually there, the confidence. Um, [00:52:00] we actually just can, um, and do just need to choose to believe that it's there. 

Jaime Hunt: That is so beautiful. That is just, that hits me here. So I, I really appreciate you sharing that.

Um, for people who wanna, um, maybe work with you in the future or have a conversation with you, where can people find 

Tracy Playle: you? I'm all over the place. So I'm, I use Twitter a lot. So I'm at Tracy Plow on Twitter, so T rra, C Y P L A Y L E. The consultancy company that works in higher ed is Pickle Jar Communications.

We also have the content ed, uh, which is the, the conference and the training programs around it. Um, a personal website, uh, which is also the coaching. Most of the coaching work, although I do do some of that free Pickle jar, is tracy plow.com. I also run something called Utterly Content as well, which is, A non-education sector thing for content professionals.

So lots and lots of places for people to, to connect with me and I, I love hearing from people and welcoming people into things, and I run all kinds of, [00:53:00] you know, Conference talks and try and do a lot of like blogging and uh, run some free workshops and things like that for people. Cuz I always wanna make sure there's an access point for everyone to be able to, to get involved in this work.

Um, and whenever I run group coaching programs, I always make sure there's a scholarship place available as well. So, um, so just also to iterate if people want to connect with me or work with me in a way it doesn't always have to be a paid way to get there. There is always ways to be able to access this work without it needing to be a transac.

Jaime Hunt: You could, for example, start a podcast, um, and ha you know, get two seasons of it in and then, you know, have her be a guest on your show and get some like free coaching while you, while you're recording . That was my strategy. It was, I plotted this out like a year ago. I. I, I've been following Tracy for a long time and with actually a personal, uh, social media account that I had, um, before the current one that I have, and there's a lot of wisdom that she shares and she's just a fun follow.

So I hope that if nothing else, that you'll follow her there, and I hope that you will follow me and [00:54:00] that you will reach out if you have any questions. My, uh, social or on Twitter is Jamie Hunt imc. That's j a i m e h u n. Im c and can also find me on LinkedIn. I hope you'll use the hashtag higher ed CMO to spark some conversation around this episode.

Um, and I am looking forward to your reactions. What did you learn? What, what are you gonna take away from this? So, thank you so much, Tracy. It has been absolutely a privilege to talk with you about this. I hope that we talk again in the future. For the listeners, uh, let's go bust some silos. And I'm gonna add to this, remember, you 

Tracy Playle: are worthy.

Zach Busekrus: Hey all, Zach here from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO with Jaime Hunt. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leading a rating and a review [00:55:00] of this show on Apple Podcasts.

Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional. But Enrollify is far more than just a podcast network.

Enrollify is where Higher Ed comes to learn new marketing skills, discover new products and services, and find their next job. We're a growing learning community of 4,000 members and we love to welcome you into the fold. You can access our free blog, articles, newsletters, e-courses, and more, or purchase our master course on how to market a university with Terry flannery at enrollify.org.

We look forward to meeting you soon and welcoming you into the community. Again, you can subscribe for free at enrollify.org.