Designing Compelling Messages and Narratives

Full Transcript

Jaime Hunt: [00:00:00] Hi. I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make. I actually really enjoy crisis communications and issues management, but sometimes when you're in the middle of a reputational issue, it's easy to forget that storytelling can play an important role in crafting a narrative that resonates with your audience.

That's why I'm so happy to be talking to my guest today. Katie Angstadt from CRA Admired Leadership about how you can use storytelling to craft compelling narratives that help you achieve the objectives of your organization.

Welcome to Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo, the podcast design for Higher Education marketers. I'm your [00:01:00] host, Jamie Hunt, and I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration with Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education.

After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by using the hashtag higher ed cmo. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at at jamie Hunt imc. That's J A I m E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to 

KatieAngstadt: connect.

Jaime Hunt: I'm so happy to be here with Katie Ted, who is a partner at CRA Admired 

KatieAngstadt: Leadership. Hey Katie, how are you? I'm great. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you today. We're gonna 

Jaime Hunt: be talking a little bit about storytelling [00:02:00] and building compelling narratives, and Katie and I worked together when I was at a previous institution, and I probably can't go into details because of the type of work that we're doing with relatively confidential, but Katie is just an absolute expert on strategic communications and leadership communications, so we're so thrilled to have her say.

Katie, do you wanna tell us a little bit about your career and your journey and what you do at cra? Admired Leader. 

KatieAngstadt: Sure. Happy to. Um, well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here. I always love listening to your confessions. So, Sir, Admired Leadership is a relatively small boutique management consulting firm.

I'm, as you mentioned in the strategic communication practice, but really our firm was founded. We've been around for over almost 40 years. And we have an expertise around working with organizations to really elevate them, and this is relatively broad, but elevate them in lots of ways in how we help leaders communicate to their [00:03:00] most important constituencies as we think about inside of an organization.

So often, especially with marketing, you think about how we communi. Outside of an organization, but we often focus on when we're communicating really strategic things that are happening in an organization, whether it's a new strategy that's getting rolled out, a merger, an acquisition, some sort of large scale change.

How do we really help and equip leaders to communicate that effectively to the organization in a way that helps, uh, employees or associate. Really understand and align their behavior to whatever the direction is that the organization is intending to go. Um, and so that's really where I spend a lot of my time.

But we also have, uh, a lot of work that we do related to research and leadership development, and we have a coaching practice. And so a lot of the work that we do, I like to talk about it in a way of how we elevate organizations to be. Not in how they just show up in the work that they do today to day, but like for leaders and how do we help leaders get better inside organizations?

So that's a little bit of a [00:04:00] glimpse of some of the work that we do and how we came to be. That's, that's awesome. 

Jaime Hunt: I have really enjoyed working with Katie and her team. They have been so thoughtful and helpful and always, um, calm, even in the face of some stressful situations. So I always appreciate that about Katie.

Um, recently you did our two day workshop on, um, storytelling and building compelling narratives. 

KatieAngstadt: In that we, 

Jaime Hunt: we kind of talk about how leaders are using storytelling to drive. And achieve organizational outcomes. What makes storytelling so powerful? 

KatieAngstadt: That is a great question. So I think so often inside organizations, what you'll come to find, whether it's in an academic institution or a corporate organization, is when there is a change that is happening, uh, there tends to be.

Here's what typically happens. So a leadership team decides that they wanna make a change and they will communicate that change. And in that moment, there's usually a lot of activity that happens to announce whatever the [00:05:00] change might be and, and there's not a lot of context typically that is shared with the organization around the why.

And so it leaves readers or audiences feeling like, Okay, well, I fundamentally understand it, but I don't really see the connection. And the reason that happens is because leaders have what we call the cursive knowledge, which essentially means that they're involved in hundreds, if not thousands, of conversations from week to week and month to month, where they have all the context around.

Why we're making this decision? How is it working? What does this mean? And so then when they announce something, they actually presume that the audience knows more than they actually do, right? Mm-hmm. . So this curse of knowledge is this cognitive bias, if you will, around how they think about it. And so if we take that idea of communicating a change and say, Well, what's the story we actually wanna tell around this change?

And if you think. Kind of a narrative arc in the most important parts of a story. You have a protagonist and an antagonist and a setting and rising action and climax and resolution. You [00:06:00] have all of these really important parts. If you think about being an, being able to paint that picture and how you tell a story and how you're communicating a change.

You're ultimately giving the organization more context to say, Okay, now I understand, I have the situation, the context, the background, kind of what are the things that led to the decision. And so that's one part of it. So the additional context in a story is really helpful. But as humans, we are storytelling animals, right?

There's even a book. that is related to that. Stories are really sense making tools for people to really understand what is happening, why is it happening, how is it relevant for me? And so instead of saying, let's communicate the change, it's, what's the story we're trying to tell around this change to help people have deeper meaning for why and what it really means for them.

So do you have an example of 

Jaime Hunt: a story that a company might tell or an organization might tell to convey information to an 

KatieAngstadt: internal. So when it comes to organizational storytelling, it's, there's a little bit of a nuance cuz I think so [00:07:00] often everyone has a different frame of context when they hear a story, right?

What's the story or storytelling or a narrative and often w. You know, organizational stories aren't the type of creative storytelling that I think so many of us often think about. So as we think about an example of a story we might tell, what we're looking for is really what is the frame with which of the story we wanna tell.

So, as an example, one of the words that we hear a lot in this, a lot of stories that are happening inside organizations right now is around the word transformation. Hmm. We're telling a story of transformation, meaning we're making these changes because we wanna transform how we do business or how we serve.

Or, or whatever the case might be. And so you hear a lot of stories that are really centered or oriented around transformation. You hear, you hear stories around evolution, how we're developing and evolving and getting stronger and better and faster. You might hear stories also about a transition around how we might be on a journey from going from one place to another.

But there's an, you know, as you think about this idea of a transition or a journey, there's an [00:08:00] end state in mind. So there's, what we've found in our firm, and we've done a lot of research around this, is that there's essentially. Um, ways in which we can tell stories inside an organization. So when we go into an organization, someone says to us, Can you help us tell this story?

When we look at the stories they're telling already, cuz whether we like it or not, if you look across how organizations and institutions communicate, there's a lot of existing stories. What we find is the stories that they're telling are. Um, a lot of the different stories. So instead of saying this is a story of evolution, they're telling a story that's about evolution and transformation and a transition all in one, and it kind of creates confusion.

So a lot of the work that we will do with organizations is to help them really refine and enhance the story so it creates clarity for people rather than, Oftentimes what happens, it can create confusion cuz people are actually left feeling like, Well, what's really happening? Are we transforming? Or is this about getting stronger?

What, what is that? What is it actually that we're doing? Um, so a lot of the work that we do actually is about language and [00:09:00] words and how we use words effectively to create clarity. I just 

Jaime Hunt: heard somebody describe, um, marketing in a way of kind of refining that story. So, Um, the analogy that they used was if you throw 16 ping pong balls at somebody, the odds that they catch one of them are pretty low.

But if you throw one ping pong ball at them, the odds that they catch it would be much higher. Is that sort of the con kind of 

KatieAngstadt: way you thinking about storytelling? Absolutely. A lot of it when we think about storytelling and what we find is the stories that leaders want to tell often are using language and words that are really compelling for.

Mm, but not necessarily what's most compelling for the audience and what they need to hear. And the transformation is a great example. So leaders love this idea of we're transforming. There's something about that word that leaders love and really attached to. But if you look at the research and what, as employees and, and people inside an organization hear that the people who are doing the work day to day frontline working with [00:10:00] students, you know, working in the plants, whatever the case may be, that word doesn't resonate.

They hear that word and it actually triggers responses. layoffs, efficiency. Mm-hmm. , what does this mean for me? And so, you know, it's really about how do we reframe things in a way that is gonna allow people to really hear it and not bounce off of them and not create what we call competing frames. Cuz that's essentially the different stories that you tell can, can create this competition and for what people should be paying attention to.

And so I love what you just described around this ping pong effect, which is, If you pick one frame and you stick with it and you're consistent not with across different leaders and how they tell that story, people are gonna be more inclined to actually one, hear it and two, believe it, right? Because if I hear one leader telling one story and another leader telling a different story, I'm gonna feel a lot less.

Um, I'm gonna to see that leadership team perhaps as not being aligned and credible. And we all know that one of the most important things that a leadership team can do is be consistent in how [00:11:00] they. And how they communicate.

Jaime Hunt: Hey all. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I wanna take a moment to thank my friends at Mind Power who are making season two of this Unify podcast. Possible Mind Power is a full service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly 30 years of needle moving, thought provoking research, fueled creative and strategy.

Line Power is woman founded and owned, W B E N C. Nationally recognize and serves the social sector, higher education, healthcare non-profits, and North The Mindpower team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experienced creators from market research to brand campaigns, to recruitment to fundraising.

The agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. You can learn more about their work in the world by heading on over to Mind Power Inc. That's M I n D P O W E R I N [00:12:00] c.com. And be sure to tell the crew that Jamie sent you their way.

So what kind of advice do you give to leadership teams for having that consistency? If you're working with an organization that maybe has a president and eight or 10 vice presidents, how do you align those people around a 

KatieAngstadt: single frame? , That's a great question. Um, a lot of conversation. So first upfront, we do spend, one of the things that we require, if we are gonna do this type of work is actually, you know, reviewing a lot of the things that already exist within the organization for how they naturally communicate.

What are the words they're using, um, what is showing up consistently. And then when we engage with the leadership team, helping them understand this premise, I mean, this isn't necessarily something that you learn in business school as you're, you know, coming up as a leader, but helping them understand how language works, um, and the importance of being able to pick language and make deliberate decisions and the importance of sticking with it.

[00:13:00] So we actually will share with them, you know, here's different types of language that we can use. What resonates most with you? And then how do we, once we make a decision around what's the story we wanna tell, what's the language we wanna use, how do we equip them to make sure that they can be consistent in how they deliver it, but also make it their own?

Right? This is an, this is not an exercise in creating a script for leaders. This is an exercise in equipping them to be more effective in how they're communicating, not just within their own part of the organization, but across as a. One of the things that I talk 

Jaime Hunt: about when I'm talking to leadership teams is not what are we trying to convey?

What information are we trying to convey? What do we want people to know when they read this, but also what do we want them to feel? And I feel like that, what do we want them to feel? Piece 

KatieAngstadt: is forgotten really easily. 

Jaime Hunt: Is storytelling a tactic or, or a tool that can help achieve that feeling that we're desiring 

KatieAngstadt: our audiences?

Yes, absolutely. There is definitely a part [00:14:00] of, when we think about communicating inside organizations, I think so often, um, it's a first and foremost, we wanna make sure we're communicating the facts right, and we want people to understand the rational part of whatever it is we're trying to convey. But to your point, how do we also get some sort of connect.

Emotionally so people not only understand the rational, um, of why the change is happening, but also that they feel compelled to, to act or do whatever it is le leaders are hoping that they'll do through making those sorts of connections. And that's where the storytelling piece and how we. Maybe talk about how a student, we can use a student as an example of a success story, right?

When you put a face and humanize any part of any story, it's more compelling for people. It's more relational to be able to have that human side of a story, it's challenging. Certainly. I think that's one of the biggest challenges we have inside organizational storytelling today. When we think about strategic narratives is so often, it really is.

You know, this [00:15:00] is the strategy and this is the business and this is the direction we need to go. But how we make that compelling for people who are at every level of the organization across geographies and cultures is something that I think a lot of leaders, um, you know, struggle with, but can do really effectively.

And how we think about how might we fold the customer in, or the student in, or sustainability into the, to the conversation to make it more compelling for people and more real and relat. You used 

Jaime Hunt: it, the word narrative, and that's something we talked about a little bit. Um, in the introduction 

KatieAngstadt: to this podcast, the term 

Jaime Hunt: narrative.

I have had faculty, for example, throw back at me as meaning spin. Mm-hmm. , how do you, how would you respond to someone who said, Well, you're just trying to spin what this story is. . 

KatieAngstadt: Yeah. And spin of course, has such a negative connotation. The, we go into these conversations when we think about narratives and stories.

we all have the opportunity to be able to shape [00:16:00] the story we wanna tell. One of the things that we'll say a lot and is something that anchors and me and is foundational to the work that I do, is we say everything happens inside an organization because of or within a conversation. Hmm. And as leaders, one of their primary responsibilities is to think about what are the conversations we wanna.

What are the conversations that as an organization we need to always be having? And we can think about, You could probably rattle off the top of your head the conversations that organizations have. There's conversations about corporate impact. There's conversations about strategy. There's conversations about financial fitness.

There's all sorts of conversations we can create. One of the things that we talk a lot with leaders about is how are you shaping that? How are you being more thoughtful and strategic and how you're creating the right conversations. And so I. You know this comment around, Well, that's just spin when we think about narratives.

I actually think it's being, I would never advocate for spin. Um, spin to me actually implies it's, there's something that's not true or we're, or we're lying or there's some sort of [00:17:00] something we're masking. Um, I would never go into an organization. We are about being trans transparent as. Possible if the timing is right and, and if that makes sense for the situation.

We work with a lot of organizations that are publicly traded, so we have some obligations where we can't, but when I hear spin, I automatically have a frame of we're not telling the truth or lying. And so when I think about narratives, it's not about telling the truth, it's about shaping the meaning for people.

So it's more compelling in how they hear it and understand it. Hmm. I love that. 

Jaime Hunt: I love that idea. And how does Tone 

KatieAngstadt: play? Tone is always part of the conversation. One of the first things we'll do is. Create narratives or tell stories inside organizations is we always have an ear for tone. And, and obviously language plays a really important part, um, the cadence of how you tell a story.

And so we will have a deliberate conversation around what is, how are we to, back to your point, how are we trying to make people feel? [00:18:00] How, what is it that we want them to believe? And so as we think about what the leaders are telling, You know, we might say, Okay, we need to have an optimistic tone or we need to be, you know, empathetic in this moment.

And so actually asking the question, cuz I think so often people say, Ooh, the tone's off here. And they have a hard time really figuring out, oh, maybe it's too direct. Maybe that language isn't resonating. But if you make those decisions before you put pen to paper or before you go into the big meeting to say like, what is really the tone I'm trying to strike here?

Whatever your answer is, is gonna. helpful in informing the decisions you make around Word choice, how you show up and all sorts of other things. So tone is obviously a really important part. Um, and I find people don't think about tone until they realize it's wrong. Mm-hmm. , right? And so, you know, you know when tone is wrong, but it's hard to say like, it's, it's really easy to point when it's wrong, but when you get it right, you also know it too.

But a lot of people don't think about the tone beforehand. At least that's in my. So [00:19:00] when you're working with a 

Jaime Hunt: leader who maybe has no experience in communications field, um, or maybe they aren't as comfortable with the process that you're talking about, where you're being really deliberate with how you're approaching, crafting a narrative, crafting a story, how do you approach that with someone who's just like, I don't understand what you're saying.

I don't know why this is. 

KatieAngstadt: Yeah, I was just gonna say it, it there's, it depends, right? There might be some leaders who say like, I don't, I don't get it. And I don't understand why it's important, but they're willing to listen and learn. Those are a lot easier than the ones who are like, I've been doing this my whole career and I've been successful and it's got me this far, so we're gonna keep trucking along.

Um, data is important, right? So I think the importance of helping leaders understand that there is research and data around organizations that have high levels. What we call strategic clarity. Mm Uh, make better decisions faster, have more productive workforces, have higher levels of engagement, which as we know in the environment that we all live within [00:20:00] right now, with people leaving organizations and things of that nature, people's ears.

Leader's ears will perk up when we say, Look, you know, at the end of the day, having greater strategic clarity and people really understanding the why and where we're headed and the role they play and helping us get there, and here's how you can do that effectively, and we've done it in other organization, that tends to help them shift when we can show them some data and, and point to founded research around that.

I've been doing this for 15 years, early in my career, it was always an uphill battle, but we, it's really shifted, especially I think coming out of the. Leaders really understand the value of internal communication, um, and, and how important it is and really, and that connection that it has to driving engagement inside organizations.

I 

Jaime Hunt: think that the shift in the number of higher ed CMOs who report directly to the president and sit on the cabinet since the pandemic really highlights. Because suddenly I know when, when the pandemic hit and I was at, [00:21:00] um, a different institution than I'm at today, everybody sort of looked to me like, Hey Jamie, we need to tell people stuff.

it was, that was echoed at, you know, all 4,000 institutions of higher ed around the country, and suddenly the strategic importance of internal communications rose to the forefront, I think, and that led to the elevation of our roles at a lot of. Um, so I think there's definitely, definitely underrated value for internal communication.

KatieAngstadt: Talk about a silver lining, right? Right. The pandemic and its ability to really give CMOs and communication functions, the spotlight and the, the teams that did really well in that, in that really crippling time for a lot of organizations where they were shifting to virtual and, um, so much uncertainty.

There has been so much as I think about my clients, um, what a, what a great silver lining to have to look back on to say, Wow, now the [00:22:00] organization really values us that much more. They know what we can do. We were able to shine, um, which I love. Yeah, that was, It was a 

Jaime Hunt: fantastic, I hate to say this, but it was a fantastic moment for us to show mm-hmm.

What we can do, and I think, I think back, this is, I shouldn't probably confess this, but this is, the name of the podcast is Confessions of a Higher Ed. Let's hear it when I. The first day after we sent everybody home and many of us executives were still coming into the office, I was like skipping to my car.

I was so excited to be able to get in a room and hash out what we wanna tell people and what are we gonna do and how are we gonna convey it to people. And um, I had, um, been in that role for five years and had built a lot of credibility and trust and so people were willing to listen to me. , we need to think about how we want people to feel.

And it was such an exciting time, which sounds terrible because it was also a really terrible time. Sure, yeah. But that idea of being able to play [00:23:00] a role in helping your organization get through a challenging time was really, really rewarding. And I'm sure I'm not the only 

KatieAngstadt: higher ed CMO that feels that way.

Is 

Jaime Hunt: that, does that kind of motivate 

KatieAngstadt: you in the work that you. It does, I think to a certain extent, it also validates the importance of the role that any person inside an organization plays in helping communicate to a large swath of people and, and to create meaning and to have that platform to connect.

Um, but a hundred percent, I mean, I remember. Our firm in particular had really never been busier. Um, you know, that's kind of the, the nature of the work that we do, that when organizations are in down times they turn, they tend to turn to us for help and being able to communicate things. Um, and so I find myself in a situation, uh, obviously covid was an extreme, but, you know, being able to, to be able to help the organization and create [00:24:00] clarity in moments that have really high levels of uncertainty in this.

Sense of anxiety that is challenging, but to, to have leaders listening and really taking heed on the advice and applying it and seeing. Some of the great work that really could be done in showcase despite how dark it was in our world at that moment. Um, letting, letting some of that rise to the top. And I think that's something that I will certainly remember, um, for a long time.

Cuz even the stories when I talk to my colleagues who are CCOs inside organizations and, and what have you, um, just really was a, despite everything that was happening in the world, was a shining moment for the profession. It, it absolutely 

Jaime Hunt: was. Absolutely was. And a. Public health organizations, those communicators were really, you know, to have a cliche doing the Lord's work.

I mean getting, convincing people to mask up, convincing people to social distance, um, to get their vaccinations. All of that is a [00:25:00] very nuanced way of driving behavior, and I think the whole conversation that we're having around narrative and storytelling, I think fits into the most effective of those. . 

KatieAngstadt: I, I agree.

I mean, you can, as a case study to look at, um, you know, going beyond an organization, but how do you actually get the masses to, to do those things, right? We, we hear things, you know, we talk about sticky messages, right? And so like, flattening the curve and, and what are all the ways in which we can have.

Short and easy things that we can say to people to get them to call, to action, to do things, to save their life and protect their neighbors and, and all of those things. Um, there's so many really great examples. I'm sure there's plenty of, you know, what not to do examples, but, but as you think about, you know, I'm, I'm someone who catalogs those sorts of things and files them away as things to reflect on and as inspiration when I'm working inside other organizations on different campaigns and things.

Um, but yeah, I think that's a really great example to your. [00:26:00] Of of things that work well and I'm sure other things that perhaps didn't. 

Jaime Hunt: So in your practice you work with a lot of different clients and so I'm curious about what advice you might have for shifting gears. So you must shift gears 15 times a day.

You're working with this client than this client working on this project. And higher ed CMOs are often doing things like a managing a brand platform. Then I'm going over here and dealing with a crisis situation, or I'm having to craft a narrative about this or that. How do you shift gears as you move between different tasks in your day?

KatieAngstadt: Ooh, that's a good question. Um, I think I've been doing it for so long, so let me think about the mechanics of that a little bit. So some of it is, Having an awareness around the work I like to do. So there is, I think for most people you probably, if you think about the variety of things you do out of the out of the day, you probably can say, You know what, I really love when I can be creative and when I write.

And so there may be some tasks that you have throughout your day that you really are like, [00:27:00] You know what? I should probably spend 30 minutes on this. But then an hour and a half later, you're still doing it cuz you love it. And that's where you wanna spend your energy and your time. And I. So I think some of it is first understanding where, where you get your energy from, but also what depletes your energy.

And I think the things that are hardest and the things that you don't like most, I always try and front load those in, in the earlier part of the day because as you get later in the day, whether you're an early person or a night person or what have you, um, just the level of attention that you can put on things gets smaller.

As the day goes on. So one, so I think the first thing is understanding where you get your energy and where you don't, and figuring out if there's a way to shape your day to be able to organize it as such that you can pull those kind of more strategic things that are harder forward, do that. But I also think the ship, the pivoting can be really hard.

I mean, I think. As I think about any advice I might give someone to do that is if it is something that's of challenge to you, how [00:28:00] can you build in? Sometimes we don't have the luxury of any time cuz we're on the fly and we're on the phone and there's a crisis. Um, you know, even if it's 30 seconds to take some deep breaths, um, even if it's.

You know, if you have your to-do list or your tracking list, if you require a quick shift and your mid thought, there are some people that have a really hard time, like where are you tracking that thought so you don't lose it? And being really deliberate in your process around how you manage those sorts of things.

I think just having a heightened awareness around some of that and a process to support it to allow you to shift faster is helpful. But it, I think a lot of it does come with experience. I, I at least notice it. I work with, there's a lot of folks at our firm that are, you know, kind of fresh out of college and they're the first time.

In a situation where they're literally operating in fifth gear the whole day. And so how do you navigate and shift between, Some of it is time management, some of it is knowing where your energy is, some of it is being really deliberate in how you are observing those shifts and what isn't working. Is it because you can't get out of the last one or you don't get out it effectively?

There's [00:29:00] probably some smaller micro-behaviors that could be really helpful for people, but those are just a few that I think. . You mentioned that 

Jaime Hunt: you work with a lot of people who are early career, 

KatieAngstadt: recent college graduates. 

Jaime Hunt: How do you approach mentoring them around storytelling and narrative 

KatieAngstadt: building? A lot of it is kind of helping them understand, we have our own proprietary research around some of this and.

It is a whole different way of thinking and how you write. Um, for people who have even gone to school for some sort of communications degree or marketing degree, being a storyteller and someone who develops narratives is a coachable skill. Uh, absolutely. And so I think helping them understand, I talked earlier, About kind of the different elements of the narrative arc.

So there's some art and science to storytelling. So at the very least we can help impart some of the science, right? What's the theory behind it? How does it work? And we have a framework and a question inventory that I use with my clients that I will ask a bunch of [00:30:00] questions so that we can get what we need to actually create a narrative.

So I think the more they can understand the science and then having the tools to apply the art, and that comes with time, I think, with anything, you know, writing and, and understanding. Pen something in a particular voice or tone or brand for an organization, um, is something that certainly comes with some experience, but can be learned quickly.

The more, the more you write stories, the better you get. Like anything more reps are better. So for people who join my team who are early career, I have them writing as much as possible. I will give them examples of narratives that aren't done well, and I'll say, Rewrite this, right? Mm-hmm. . So as many reps as possible.

And they don't always like it cuz they're like, Well, I wanna work on the client work that's real. Like the, And I'm like, That's great. Let's get some reps in and practice that and helping them kind of dissect the key parts of it and, and what worked well and what didn't work well, and how might, how they might evolve their writing.

I have 

Jaime Hunt: a good friend who's a novelist, who's, who's um, publishing company. He created his own small publishing company. It's [00:31:00] called 1 million Words. And he talks about how um, in order to be good at something, you have to practice for 10,000 hours. Oh. And that works out to be about a million words before you can even write something That's great.

You have to write a million not great words, um, to get to that point. So I love the idea of practicing, kind of having the training wheels on or the guardrails. To kind of help your mentees or your, um, entry levels kind of gain that skill and experience. Do you give them sort of a formula for what you're looking 

KatieAngstadt: for when you give them this guidance?

Yeah, we do. We have a formula for it and we have, um, like I mentioned like a question inventory that helps. Um, but to go back to your point around the, this idea of 10,000 hours, um, it's about deliberate practice. So we can all do the 10,000 hours, but if we're practicing the 10,000 hours wrong, right, um, it's not gonna lead to the right outcome, right.

Some of it is making sure that they're practicing the right things. And [00:32:00] so there's a part of a, of a, a narrative that has what we call a strategic message in it, and it's kind of the core of the narrative, which ultimately articulates for the project or the function or the team or whatever it might be, kind of the mission, the vision, and the strategy for the organization.

Um, we spend a lot of time getting that right because we often find that that's what organizations get so wrong, not necessarily the mission and the vision. Every organization has. What? What they don't do a great job of doing is being able to articulate this, the strategic direction of the organization.

So mission, why we exist, vision where we hope to go, but then there's not a lot of connecting the dots to say, and here's how we're gonna get there. So a lot of what we tend to focus on and everybody's different. There might be some people who are great at doing this strategic message piece of it, and some people who perhaps may not.

May not be as concise or it may not be as sticky and compelling. Um, so I think what it really comes down to is making sure that you're getting the reps and practicing, but not necessarily the stuff that you're already good at. And that's our tendency as [00:33:00] humans. We like to practice the stuff that we're good at.

Nobody likes to practice the stuff that they're not good at. It doesn't feel good. Um, so really making sure that the reps. Getting feedback. So it's about making sure that not only are you practicing, but how are you getting that feedback? How are we making sure that we're connecting to say what was good?

What would you do differently? What should you dial up? What should you dial down? Um, and really getting those, the, the practice I think is really important. But practicing with feedback, not just practice for practice sake.

Zach Busekrus: Hey, I'll Zach here from Enroll Offi. We founded in RFI with an ambitious goal to be a professional advocate for marketers and admissions professionals throughout their entire career inside and around higher education. We started by launching a podcast and then a newsletter, and then a review site for higher ed vendors, and then an.

And then more podcasts, and then a video series, and then a master course, and eventually a full fledged resource [00:34:00] hub. What United these educational resources was a simple mission to help higher ed marketers and admissions professionals optimize the resources that they do have. To generate the results that they need.

While great content is and always will be at the heart of what makes Enroll offi, well enroll Offi. We realize that if we're serious about accompanying folks like you throughout your entire professional journey, we've gotta do more than just make great content. And that's when the idea of Enroll Five Jobs was Born.

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Jaime Hunt: I think that's such an important point. When I talk about mentoring early career professionals, I talk a lot about you can't really sugar coat feedback. You have to give really [00:36:00] honest feedback. This doesn't mean you have to be, you know, mean about it or anything, but to give feedback that point out, yes, this was the, this is the right direction this, this is why this isn't, and having that sort of why it's.

Sort of tying back to the beginning of this conversation, there's now a narrative around, 

KatieAngstadt: um, the work that you're doing. Yes. I think that's an important point, being able to give feedback and that is something that a lot of people aren't great at and in fact avoid. Whether it's because they don't, they don't wanna be confrontational or they don't wanna have the direct feedback.

But a lot of the leaders I work with when they'll say to me, Gosh, this person just keeps doing this over and over again, and I wish they would stop. And I said, Well, did you give 'em the. Did you tell 'em? Did you tell 'em to stop? And they'll say, Well, I haven't really had that conversation. And it's like, well be, Well, why?

Well, I, you know, I don't wanna hurt their feelings. And it's like, Well, if you frame it in the context of I'm doing this to make you better. Yeah. And that is my job as your leader to elevate you and make sure you're, you're getting better. And it's so interesting to see that kind of flip [00:37:00] switch, if you will, for some leaders to say like, Oh, you're right.

Mm-hmm. . And you know, you don't see that with the more senior leaders, but for early leaders who. really trying to grow talent and build a team, you have to give that feedback and it has to be a natural part of the culture of the team. 

Jaime Hunt: I think the greatest irony of my career has been that the earlier in my career, I was the less receptive to feedback I would like.

Every year that goes by, I crave more and more feedback to hone my skills, hone my talents, and you know, make sure I'm getting better and better at what I do. But earlier in my career I was very defensive. Are you saying, I don't know what I'm doing, I didn't know what I was doing. . That was, that was a fact.

And I could benefit so much from people if I had listened, um, to that feedback. And that's something that I have talked about with my team in the past is this idea of feedback strengthens, strengthens you. And giving feedback is a part. Cuz sometimes people just say, I don't like this. Just, [00:38:00] uh, you know, whatever that vague feedback.

But, um, receiving feedback is, I think, something that we don't talk enough about being receptive to 

KatieAngstadt: it, hearing it, taking it on board. I couldn't agree more. I, I, and I even observed that in, you know, people that I work with. As we think about our firm in cultivating talent, I think, um, the more. Senior you get in your career, the more you do, and maybe this is a generalization, but you and I are maybe sharing this common thread, which is, that's the only way you get better is feedback.

And I ask for feedback from my clients, you know, not all the time, but I'm sure you can remember times where I said like, gimme some feedback. How's it going? Like, what should we do more of or less of? Um, because we've really, you know, even though we're in client services and professional services, you can apply that lens just in your day to day in your craft with whatever you're doing.

You know, always having that, that growth mindset. Yeah. And I talk 

Jaime Hunt: about, you know, defensiveness is not, does not serve you. It doesn't help you be better at what you do and it [00:39:00] doesn't help you be receptive to the kind of commentary that might make you as better professional, make your writing stronger, make your approaches to things better.

I just think, you know, if we can get rid of defensiveness and listen. You know, somebody's just being mean and nasty. You don't even have to get defensive because you know that's about them and not about you. But if they're giving you constructive feedback on your writing or something else that you've worked on, then you can feel like, okay, there's something in this that I can take on board that will make me better for the next 

KatieAngstadt: time I tackle this.

Absolutely. I think there's two dimensions to that. One is how the person hears it and understands it and may interpret it as personal, right? I'm doing something wrong, this is about me. But there are in fact lots of leaders who aren't very good at giving feedback . Um, it really does, to your point, it does really require, um, you know, there's some things that leaders do really well and how they give, how they give feedback that I've observed.

Um, some admired leaders that we. You know, have taken some behaviors away from, [00:40:00] and how they do that in exceptional and masterful ways that people really hear it and understand it and then know what to do with it. Um, but there are a lot of leaders who think they give feedback and have thought they've been really clear, but when in fact it's actually not been very good.

So I think that's why feedback gets a really bad wrap because there's, you know, like communication. There's a receiver and there's somebody who's giving it, and it, it takes, it takes someone who's open to it, but also someone who can deliver it in a way that someone can hear it and make meaning from it and take action.

Are there ways 

Jaime Hunt: that leaders can incorporate the idea of receiving feedback into the process of creating a narrative? Like are there ways that people can ask for, Tell me how this made you feel, or Tell me what your response to this is. Are there mechanisms that can be used to kind of get that kind of feedback cycle?

KatieAngstadt: We a hundred percent build that into our process. Um, I think also because we're coming into an organization as outsiders, lots of time and as much as we can gather data and review documents and be in interviews and ask the [00:41:00] right questions, the intent is we really need it to land with the audience and be compelling.

And so we will build in message testing along the way, and so that before we even say like, Okay, this is final, we will have incorporated very a variety of voices from across the organization at a variety of levels, not just at the level of leadership to ensure that it's what we're conveying is clear and.

Especially for organizations with different cultures and different countries, um, it's really important that you get that right and you can create a universal narrative, but then that's something that can be translated depending on where you are in the organization, um, and, and what's meaning, what's most meaningful in the story or in the narrative to that part of the organization.

So we build that into our process automatically to make sure that we're accounting for the different perspectives and, and the diverse audiences that we need to make. Our, this is resonating with in a higher ed organization. 

Jaime Hunt: What would 

KatieAngstadt: a process like that look [00:42:00] like, do you think? So if we were in a higher ed organization, and I would say we would likely, we would, we always like to start with the leadership team.

Um, and. What the ideal setting is creating a conversation across that group to really allow us to share our perspective and how effective message development and narrative development looks and works and sharing some examples, but also creating a conversation with them. Cuz at the end of the day, it needs to be either story, it's not our story.

And so though we're helping them craft. It is so important that we have their voice reflected and they feel after the process is over that it's theirs and they can make it their own and they can own it and carry the flag forward with it. So it often includes, you know, reviewing background materials, coming to a conversation with the leadership team where we actually can put forward to say, Here's the story we actually think you're telling.

Right. And helping them understand that and, and based on what we know about the university and the direction you're [00:43:00] headed and what's most important, here's the story we actually think you ought to be telling. And we'll actually have kind of a side by side view. Um, and we're, and it's iterative, right?

It's over a couple of sessions that we'll do it and creating the conversation, we expand that conversation over time, um, to give them time to reflect for them, for us to. Drafts and things that they can react to and validate, um, and the message testing and so on and so forth. So from beginning to end the process, you know, ideally could work as quickly as four weeks, but ultimately usually extends far farther on because as we go, what we tend to see is leaders who are like, You know what?

I really wanna make sure that, you know, academic affairs see this because we we're talking about something that's really important to what they do. And so let's bring them into it. And you start to. When we start out, leaders might be like a little bit defensive and like, Oh, do we really need this? And then we we're going through the process and it's really cool to see them lean in, like physically lean in and be like, Well, we really need to like make sure these people are represented and have we really accounted for this view as we think about [00:44:00] institutional advancement or whatever the case may be.

So it's not too dissimilar from how we would run it inside a corporate organization than how we would do it inside a higher ed organiz. . So Katie says that 

Jaime Hunt: it, it usually could be done in four weeks, but it tends to extend what she's not confessing is that it's because it's so addictive to work with Katie

Um, she's such a pleasure to work with and I I've always enjoyed like you're the calmest person in the room and you just have a great way of kind of taking that emotion out of the conversation so that we can have a more, um, productive engagement. 

KatieAngstadt: That is such a nice compliment. Thank you. You're sweet to say that.

I'm actually like a duck. I'm kind of like in my head, paddling really fast underwater, um, but just smooth across the water. But thank you for saying that. You are lovely to work with. I'm, I've just definitely a bright spot in the past year to have had the opportunity to work with you. Well, thank you. 

Jaime Hunt: Um, are there any resources out there for folks who are interested in [00:45:00] exploring this topic further?

Do you have any workshops on the horizon for 

KatieAngstadt: 2023? We are. So, uh, earlier in the session you had mentioned the seminar that we have just done around, uh, Designing compelling messages and narratives. Um, we are in the process of putting together our seminar series for 2023, um, and we hope to have that, uh, ready to publish.

I encourage anyone who would like to learn more to follow cra admired leadership on LinkedIn. We post all sorts of things. Um, , please feel free to follow me and we can certainly connect. Lots of times though, we do the seminars, what we often find is organizations will wanna customize things specifically for their teams or for their university or organization.

But we do do the seminar series because believe me, there are plenty of people out there who may not work for an institution or individual contributor and really just want to be able to invest in their own development in all sorts of ways. So we have seminars on this and a variety of other. Those [00:46:00] would probably be the best resources that I could offer, but there are plenty of resources out there that are around storytelling and narratives.

Um, and we mentioned one at the top, and so would be happy to share some of those if anyone would be interested. , where can people find you? Are 

Jaime Hunt: you on 

KatieAngstadt: LinkedIn, Twitter? I am. I'm not on Twitter, but I am on LinkedIn as Katie ANGs stat. But please reach out if you have any questions and I always love this.

As you can tell. I love talking about this stuff, so when you asked me, I was thrilled to, to be able to do it. Well, 

Jaime Hunt: thank you so much Katie and listeners, you could always reach out to me on Twitter at Jamie j a i m e h u n. I am C. You can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm always happy to talk. My dms are open, and as always, please use the hashtag higher ed CMO to continue this conversation online.

I would love to get your thoughts on crafting narratives, on working on internal communications, on how your [00:47:00] role has changed since Covid, any thoughts that you have. So have a fantastic rest of your day, and let's go bust some silos.

Zach Busekrus: Hey yall, Zach here from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO with Jamie Hunt. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leading a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.

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