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Podcasts Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO Episode 17
Recruiting Non-Traditional Students
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Full Transcript
Jaime Hunt: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make. I am incredibly frustrated by the way that higher education does not prioritize recruiting non-traditional or post-traditional students. I am really excited to be bringing on the show today, Seth Hodel, who's gonna be talking to us about the importance and the ways we can recruit post-traditional students.
Welcome to Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo, the podcast design for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jamie Hunt, and I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration with Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest [00:01:00] for a deep dive into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education marketing.
After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by using the hashtag higher ed cmo. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at at Jamie Hunt imc. That's J A I M E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to connect.
So I'm super excited today to be talking to Seth Odel, who is the CEO of Canna Home Agency. Welcome to the show, Seth.
Seth Odell: James for having you. We really, uh, looking forward to the
Jaime Hunt: conversation. I've been following your, the development of Canna Home over the past about a year. Right. And it has been really exciting to see.
Can you tell us a little bit about your story?
Seth Odell: Yeah, happy to. So, uh, I've been in the education space for over 15 years. I [00:02:00] worked at ucla, uh, Southern New Hampshire University. So I went from traditional to kind of non-traditional, post traditional, uh, and then I was, uh, at GM at Helix Education and then Vice Chancellor at National University System.
But last, uh, couple years, uh, November, so next month is two years. I launched Canna Home, uh, which is a new education marketing agency. Uh, we're a full service. Uh, primarily serving institutions that, that kind of cross over between traditional and non-traditional, so campus students and adult and online.
Uh, and started with just myself in a bedroom during Covid. Uh, and last week we onboarded our 20th full-time employee, which has been wild. And so we've been growing like crazy and just been very, um, grateful for the response. A lot of institutions are looking for, you know, performance marketing support, so we provide, um, paid media management.
We have six full-time media buyers buy-in ads, uh, five full-time. Uh, web services team and so kind of, you know, just doing our best to partner with institutions that are primarily looking to drive enrollment. That's really kind of our sweet spot is more on like the performance driving side, uh, and uh, just trying to keep [00:03:00] up with everything that's been coming in.
It's been a really crazy
Jaime Hunt: and less That is awesome in two years to grow to 20 employees. That is amazing. Is that, That feels atypical.
Seth Odell: Uh, yeah, it, it is definitely, um, not what I expected. Even when I started, I wasn't sure if it was gonna be just me, um, doing the consulting. Uh, there was, I thought launching during COVID would've been not ideal timing, but I think in hindsight I sort of launched like right when everyone was moving from defense to offense and starting to realize that, okay, like we need to figure out how to address the enrollment challenges that we might have experienced, um, during the pandemic.
And so, um, it has definitely not been growth. We've pursued, we've only ever done three RFPs in two years. We, we, we don't reply. It's. Folks texting and calling and reaching out and so, you know, we'll see if that dries up and I have to hit the conference circuit next year maybe. But so far, uh, it's more been like a hold onto the wheel and, uh, feels like we're going downhill.
Uh, and just trying
Jaime Hunt: to keep up. That is tremendous. And you mentioned, uh, a couple weeks ago that you had [00:04:00] something like 300 applicants for one of your roles. That is amazing.
Seth Odell: Yeah, we're actually averaging over 500. We had 800 for our last job opening. Um, we're, so, we're a fully remote company, uh, a hundred percent.
Uh, and I've just been really trying, you know, uh, one, I'm a real, like, big pro-labor person. Personally, I grew up in a very like, you know, liberal, labor friendly family. Uh, but also like, I think it's time for employers to kinda see where the market's going. So we're a hundred percent remote, We're a hundred percent asynchronous.
So staff can set their own hours and work whenever they want. Uh, and we offer, we cover a hundred percent of all benefits. So health, uh, dental vision for employee, spouses dependence, uh, large match on a 401k. We were one of the first companies in ca. To start paying student loans on behalf of our employees, uh, prior to, um, Biden's announcement.
Um, so we were actually, I think like the third in San Diego, uh, county to offer that. And so, um, just trying to, to be a future focused employer and, um, gratefully or thankfully rather, that's, [00:05:00] that's been really well received. And so folks seem eager and I thought no one would want to come join like a, a new company that doesn't totally know where it's going or what it's doing.
And, and I've like learned that's actually the opposite. People are like weirdly attracted to the kind of momentum and chaos. Uh, I think, uh, try to escape some monotony maybe on their side. And so,
Jaime Hunt: uh, I've been very grateful. I'm happy response. Always great to see wonderful people have wonderful success.
And I think it speaks to your character and the kind of company that you're trying to run, that you have had this, this wonderful, absolutely amazing growth in such a short period of time. Awesome. So excellent. I appreciate one the things that you just mentioned is that you're really focused on, well, maybe focus isn't the right word, but you're really working with folks on, um, What you have referred to in the past is post-traditional students.
How do you define post-traditional ?
Seth Odell: Traditionally, folks have called it non-traditional, and uh, we looked at the market, uh, sort of as traditional high school age [00:06:00] students that progress to college, your 18 to 22 year olds living on campus. Uh, and when I first came up in the industry, so I joined Southern New Hampshire in 2011.
They're now the largest nonprofit in the. Uh, but the time only had 7,000 students. And so even then we talked more about non-traditional, which meant typically folks that were over the age of 24, 25, um, they were studying part-time and or working part-time, um, juggling work and family. And so, uh, they had alternative kind of obstacles and that is very much a significant part of the market, much larger when people realize I have kind of just sort of just over time evolved and I'm sure I picked it up from somebody smarter.
Uh, to talking more about post-traditional, uh, because I don't think the lines of traditional, non-traditional are as clear anymore. There's actually a great article just at inside higher ed this week about how much younger online students are getting. Uh, we even saw that in 2014 and 15, uh, the average age of an adult online learner used to be like the mid thirties, and then it's been creeping down towards 30 and it's gonna pretty quickly, I think next year that the average will [00:07:00] be below.
And so we're getting to a place. Even 18 to 22 year olds are choosing to study at an online institution. And so to me those are post-traditional students. Even though they fit within the age demographic of a traditional student, they're looking for an alternative. Educational offering that is not a traditional residential experience.
And so post-traditional to me is, um, it represents both that tradit, that non-traditional definition. A lot of us have thought about adult learners and embraces the reality that even younger students these days are looking for alternative paths. I thought
Jaime Hunt: that inside Higher Ed article was fascinating, like the idea that.
Are looking for a different type of experience than that traditional experience. And I'm curious about whether you think that the pandemic has accelerated that because so many students had a fully online high school experience, or a fully online freshman and sophomore year, things like that. Do you think that has played a role?
Seth Odell: Absolutely. I think so. I was playing a significant role for a few reasons. One, people's [00:08:00] expectations I think, have changed. They've, they've gone online and in some cases have enjoyed it or at least found the trade offs to be acceptable. Um, and so that's been effective for them. Uh, and I think that's definitely been like a piece that it's been forced on.
I think we're also seeing that the folks that were like already leaders have pushed even further forward. So, uh, organizations like Southern New Hampshire or New Mexico State, they're actually offering like fully online programs for athletes. Uh, and, you know, athletes traditionally had some of the lowest completion rates at institutions.
Um, you know, they're traveling significantly, especially if you're D one. Uh, and now the idea that you can not just have one or two online classes, but you could potentially live on campus and study 100% online. That's happening today. Uh, even though it's not being talked about. And to me, that's the reality of like, Where and how does the modality meet or exceed the needs of the student?
Uh, and it's really like nuanced. Um, I do think there's students that have gotten lost in the shuffle, in the pandemic. We saw 20% decline year over year in students progressing to community colleges. Um, you know, I think a lot of them have ended up in the gig economy. They may still be living at home [00:09:00] with their parents, and so they're not looking to now suddenly switch to a resident of experience after a gap year or two.
Um, and so all of these factors combined, I think is just a real app. Um, and I think it reflects that there's a generational shift that has happened within our student population, even if it hasn't happened at the administration level. Uh, when I left UCLA in 2011, uh, I got laughed out of UCLA for leaving to go to a school no one had ever heard of in New Hampshire, uh, because I wanted to work in Lin Education cuz it was sort of looked down upon.
And even when I first started at Southern New Hampshire, you know, multiple people talked to me about like, you're working in online education. What's that? Uh, I feel like that conversations is gone and perhaps the pandemic did play a role there because, uh, when all of the Ivy League schools go a hundred percent online and the research backs up that the outcomes related to online education can, can meet or exceed that of a traditional campus, suddenly a lot of those, like early arguments, sort of start to fade away.
Um, and even if the administration is largely the same as it has been five or 10 years ago, the student population is totally turned [00:10:00] over. I think it's a really significant shift and I think, uh, I think it's only heading in one. Uh, pretty
Jaime Hunt: cool. Yeah. When I started my master's degree, it's a fully online program in 2009, and I remember, Sorry mom, I know you're listening, but I remember my mom being sort of skeptical, like, Oh, it's online.
Like it wasn't the same, but it was an incredibly rigorous program. I mean, the amount of papers and discussion groups and conversations that I had to have, it was, no, it was a different modality, but it was just as rigor. Um, but it let me maintain having a full-time job and, and I think that makes such a big difference for, from an equity and, uh, accessibility perspective.
Seth Odell: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that it's really interesting that, that these days, at the time that you did that, it might have been a reality. I got my master's online as. Um, you know, sometimes people hear about the institution and institution's known for being more online, and so, um, people might equate the degree to the modality.
But that's the other thing that the pandemic's sort of thrown out the [00:11:00] window is like these days you can get a degree from some pretty traditionally what describe as prestigious institutions from a ranking spective that are all online, but doesn't say it anywhere on the, on the diploma. It doesn't say it on your LinkedIn.
There's no way for anybody to really know. Uh, and so there's sort of this ambiguity now that, um, you really. Read the modality out of a degree anymore. And so, uh, it's really the quality of the overall institutions like brand equity and market. Um, because I had the same experience and I'm just so curious if I was getting my master's today, um, if I'd have had those conversations like I did maybe seven or eight years ago when I first started the program.
Jaime Hunt: Hey all. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I wanna take a moment to thank my friends at mindpower who are making season two of this Unify podcast. Possible Mind Power is a full service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly 30 years of needle moving, provoking research, fueled creative and strategy.
Mind Power is woman founded and owned, W B E N C certified [00:12:00] nationally. Re. And serves the social sector, higher education, healthcare, non-profits, and more. The mind power team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experienced creators from market research to brand campaigns, to recruitment to fundraising.
The agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. You can learn more about their work in the world by heading on over to mind power. That's M I N D P O W E R I N c.com. And be sure to tell the crew that Jamie sent you their.
I felt really defensive about it, like working in higher ed at the time and being like, I mean, not wanting people to know who was online, but obviously they had to know cause it was West Virginia University and I was not living in West Virginia at the time. Um, but it was, it's that the shift is really fascinating.
Last week I was, um, visiting with some international students who were talking about they are, The [00:13:00] student I was talking to is taking a fully online course load. Right. But living on campus and having that experience, But she just felt like the modality suited her learning style better.
Seth Odell: Totally. And I think that's, that's super justified.
And for a lot of folks, you know, one of the small nuances of online is, you know, you lose the back row while when you leverage, uh, message board structure, uh, with mandatory. Uh, the idea of, you know, hiding out in class doesn't really work, or the student that's really vocal, sort of hogging the teacher's time, a lot of things fade away.
And so it's certainly not for everybody. Um, but I will say my online master's was significantly harder, uh, than my on campus undergraduate experience. It should be at as a graduate level educational experience, but it still was, even though it was online and on campus. And I, uh, again, I just think that, uh, our, our populations that we are attracting and we're reaching out to.
Look, not even the conversation for them anymore. And yet it's so present, still a conversation for many of us at the institutional level. And I think that's just a sign of, um, like anytime, you know, in leadership, how do [00:14:00] you keep up with a shifting market? And I think a lot of students are doing their best.
Um, I don't wanna say everybody's caught on their heels. There's been a lot of leaders in this space, but certainly, uh, it's evolving, I think, faster on kind of the front lines of the student expectation maybe, than it is internally
Jaime Hunt: for a lot of us. Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited to be at an institution now that has, I, I wanna say they, 6,000 online students and it's largely, uh, bachelor's degrees.
So I had made an assumption that it was gonna be master's degrees, um, before I dug into it a little bit. And we have a lot of students doing fully online bachelor's degrees. I. And we have a large military population, so like 25% of our students are military affiliated. And it just gives them the opportunity to have that asynchronous experience.
Maybe you're stationed somewhere for a year. You can still take your classes and, and do them at what would be four in the morning here, but you're, you're doing a, your normal time, um, abroad.
Seth Odell: Wow. Absolutely. I mean, you, the organization, you're right, is [00:15:00] just such an interesting example too, given the breadth of the, uh, overall traditional student population I think is over 20,000.
And so if you're talking about an organization of significant scale that is also invested in online and nontraditional students, uh, and, and you know, and not knowing the legacy of it, I'm sure it's driven by the desire to serve those who serve, uh, because they've always had unique needs in that population, but it's.
Uh, exciting to see the larger organizations that would in, you'd think theoretically have like more entrenched bureaucracy and move slower, actually move like quite fast and be a leader in this space. Uh, there's a lot I think that, uh, that other folks, especially maybe smaller privates could take as lessons from that if, uh, these large organizations can move so quickly and be so effective.
Definitely shows there's, there's still a lot of room for
Jaime Hunt: folks to step in and serve as we have the conversation in higher education about the enrollment cliff, I think. This post-traditional population as being an audience that we could be attracting to help with enrollment challenges. What are your thoughts on that?
Seth Odell: Uh, so that's definitely the first place, um, that a lot of [00:16:00] folks, uh, think from a revenue perspective and, and, uh, what applied correctly is absolutely true. The demographic cliff on the private side is coming. Uh, we're gonna see less students graduating high school every year for, you know, more or less the next 10.
Uh, and so we're seeing a lot of smaller privates under significant enrollment pressure. 20% of all institutions in the state of Vermont have closed or merged in the past five years, uh, which is unbeliev 20% of the entire state's. Wow. Uh, institutions have just gone away. Um, and they're the front lines statistically for a few reasons on why, uh, the highest colleges per capita, uh, highest price tuition for almost any.
So, but they're the canary in the coal mine. They're not the, the last. And so, um, folks have looked to the non-traditional population, uh, to diversify from a revenue perspective. And I definitely think that that generally speaking makes sense. You know, just at the adult undergraduate level, uh, there's over 40 million adults in the US today that have some form of credit and no credential, meaning that they essentially started college at some point and they didn't finish.
Uh, it doesn't mean that they all want to go back and finish, but a significant portion of them. You know, the data still shows that they, they'd [00:17:00] get a, a large economic lift if they do complete that degree. Uh, and so they need kind of a low cost, flexible transfer friendly solution. That said, the market has really shifted and, um, you know, as demand is declining, supply online is, is way up.
You know, 2,500 of the 4,000 colleges in this country that offer financial aid all have online programs. Uh, and there's over 850 online MBAs. And so we are seeing a real saturation. It's like nobody needs another online mba. Different degrees or even flavors of that with concentration models result like a, a world of strategies folks have used to just absolutely be successful in this space.
But the playbook is evolving pretty quickly. And so even when I started at Southern New Hampshire, um, the marketing was very different back then. It was almost like all you had to do was open up the door and students walked in because there was such a need. Uh, and now, um, the market is flipped and students have a tremendous amount of options and, and I would argue too many options to actually research.
Like there's really no effective. To find the right online institution anymore. Um, you can't go online and [00:18:00] evaluate, you know, every MS in, in data analytics. Uh, you know, there's literally hundreds. And so how do students evaluate? And so that it's gotten complicated. Uh, but as a marketer, I actually love that, cuz to me it means that the challenge we have as a marketing challenge, because there is market demand, there's just too much supply.
But that's definitely the shift. A lot of folks see that shift in. Um, I always caution people don't look at it just to drive alternative revenue cuz it's gonna cost money in the short term. Uh, it costs a lot more to acquire students at the non-traditional side, but, uh, it is a very worthy investment. And I do think the idea of institutions reflecting on who they are and how that may shift is important.
And saying like, what's our population today? And we even have clients now at Canna Homa where we have this conversation about like, you know, are you aware that you are more than 50% non-traditional? Like when we look at your revenue and we look at your student popul. You are majority non-traditional.
And yet when you go to your website or review your emails or walk on campus or talk to people, even just internally, um, you don't censor feel that, uh, because those students are online. And so I think a lot of students are going through that [00:19:00] culturally of, um, even where they're garnering success, figuring out how does that shape or change who they are.
And I think the best folks are the ones who are. Um, this is directionally where we want to go. We're gonna lean into this, um, and, uh, and with it hopefully capture some demand and then also allow maybe our organization to Yeah.
Jaime Hunt: Enter a new chapter. I think, I think listening to what students want is a really important piece of that, because if you're listening to students and they say they want a hybrid experience or they want a fully online experience and you're not providing that, you're missing gonna miss out.
I mean, you're, it's, it's do or die at that point.
Seth Odell: Absolutely. And I think, and that's where I think, listen, we're talking about listen, students, they, they're looking for a lot of other alternatives too. So, you know, we've obviously seen a big decoupling of the degree in growth in boot camps and, and you know, non, uh, credentialed offerings.
Right now, those have been held off because financial aid is by and large only allowed to be applied to traditional degrees. There are some pilot programs where they're allowing it to be applied to boot camps. Uh, if tomorrow they woke up and said, You can apply [00:20:00] federal aid to non-degree. I candidly think a good chunk of our industry would collapse, uh, and it'd be a very, very big change cuz the market is not looking to spend two to four years on a degree.
They're looking for something more expedited. Um, which is also why we're seeing folks move straight into the workforce. So we're seeing a growth in organizations, you know, even down like Starbucks that are offering, you know, fully paid degrees with ASU if you work with them. And uh, you know, there's a lot of conversations on Reddit right now with people saying, Should I go to college or should I go?
And if I can go to work and get someone else to pay for the degree, uh, does that put me in a better place right now? And so it's a lot of shifts in what students are looking for. Um, and, and, and again, a lot of price pressure too. You know, the, the, the days of the eighties and nineties take out a hundred million dollar loans and build up big buildings and jack up tuition to cover it.
Like that's come home to roost. And so, um, I don't see the same building and land grab taking place like it. You know, even just 15 years ago for folks that were trying to build the newest dorms and have the best, you know, sushi chefs in the cafeterias to recruit, that still [00:21:00] exists, uh, certainly in some places, but I think, uh, it's a, it's no more not
Jaime Hunt: a future for a lot of folks.
So how is Yes, exactly. Is marketing to a post-traditional audience different than marketing to say those high school students are looking for that traditional college?
Seth Odell: Ah, that's great question. So there's, there's so many ways, so I'm gonna see how few I could give you and keep it concise. You know, the first I'd say is, um, high school students are working on a fixed timeline while adult students are working on a variable timeline, meaning that, you know, high school students are, are working and it's important.
They're working in unison. So they're working in unison on a fixed time level. Adults are, are working uniquely on their own path in a variable. High school students move through a cycle. They get recruited in a cycle, and they make decisions in the. Uh, that does change a little bit. There's students who do early admission.
There's students who, uh, decide to wait until the summer after they graduate and they end up at a community college or, you know, open access private institution or a public institution close by with, with that has room. But generally speaking, [00:22:00] there is a, a cycle and a path to this and there is sort of a cultural corralling that's taking place, at least within most high schools.
And so those students are sort of, you have a different level of their a. Uh, whether it's college fairs or still doing direct mail or email. Um, and so even though it's difficult to reach them in some areas like paid social, uh, where there's age restrictions, it's quite easy to reach them in others, at least historically when they were all taking tests.
And you could buy the list from the college board, which is harder than ever with more and more test optional institutions. Uh, you know, on the adult side, uh, you're competing with, uh, with inertia. And so, you know, especially, especially at the adult, undergraduate level with credit, which is 40 million, but also at the adult graduate, um, these are folks who have competing prior.
You know, the average adult today sees between 4,000 and 10,000 ads a day. , uh, and I couldn't tell you a single one I saw yesterday. Um, and, and so how do you get in front of someone like that and introduce your offering at the exact right time? You know, the first answer is like, you know, don't create demand capture it, but which means let's go to paid search.
Um, but the problem is everybody's in paid [00:23:00] search and it's gonna cost you 30 bucks to buy a click on the term online mba. Uh, so no one's making any money. People are spending $50,000 to recruit a student into a $20,000 program, losing their shirts, and there's another institution behind and willing to bid.
Uh, and so like there's a real weirdness taking place on like paid search as a, as a bidding platform. Um, that for those that can make it work, it works. Um, but it's very expensive and it's complicated and takes a lot of expertise to do. Um, and then if you're not gonna do that, you kind of gotta interrupt people.
And so, you know, paid social has been a strong player in doing that. Um, you can target folks at the adult level that you can't in high school year. We really can't target 16 to 18 year olds almost at all in any meaningful. Uh, but above 18 you can. And so the recruitment's different. Uh, but the offer has to be different too.
What they're looking for is different. If I had to over, like oversimplify and be a reductionist, I would say that traditional students want experience where adult students want outcome. Uh, and so those are very different things, and especially on the adult side. Um, you know, one of those things is, is risk [00:24:00] aversion and the likelihood that they'll succeed, um, which is, you know, you're not in high school more or.
Within reason. If you're recruiting a high school student and they choose to not go to your institution, they probably chose to go somewhere else. Uh, for an adult student, if you're recruiting them and they chose not to go to your institution, they probably just didn't go back to school. Uh, and, and so you're really up against some different motivations and obstacles in that sense.
And so, um, it's a little more complicated. Uh, it's a little bit more nuanced and it's, it's, you know, unfortunately even more of a numbers. Um, that you just have to kind of reach as many folks as you possibly can and have strong outreach strategies. And so the business has been built heavily on, you know, email and call center models and high outreach and high customer service.
Um, that's historically been the path, um, coupled with a, with a big paid media budget to try to figure out how to get in front of people and interrupt them and, At the right time, make a connection, uh, which is not easy.
Jaime Hunt: But when you were tweeting about this, um, a few weeks ago, you wrote about the four P's of recruiting post-traditional students.
Can you share with the listeners what those are and why they're [00:25:00] important?
Seth Odell: Absolutely. So, uh, like all good things I say, they come from people smarter than me. So this was taught to me by a guy named Steve Ho Downs, who is the ceo. Of Southern New Hampshire University's College of Online and Continuing Education, which is the division I worked for. Uh, and he was talking to me about recruiting adult students cuz it really, this conversation, I was coming from UCLA one, you know, at the time, one of now the most popular university in the country, uh, from an application perspective.
No shortage of interest. Uh, you come to a smaller school, uh, in New England, uh, that folks haven't heard of before. Uh, and it's a little bit of a different conversation. And so he gave me four things and I translated them into the four P's cuz I like alliteration. And I came up as a copywriter and it helps me remember.
So they are program, price, pace, and probability. So program, price, pace, and probability. And what he said is essentially adult students, when they make it to your website, they have four questions. It's, uh, do you have my. How much does it cost? How fast can I finish and then can I, or should I [00:26:00] do it? And so program was really, you know, he said he's a big believer in don't market program specific, um, market, the program portfolio, uh, that like, you know, for the most part, target doesn't market products, right?
You just in your head know what Target has and you choose to go to Target or not. And so, you know, a lot of folks have been successful in doing portfolio strategies. It's very expensive to do program specific. And so we still did some, but he pushed us towards like, Make people think that no matter what, we have the program for them and let them come to the website.
And the website's job is to help figure out if that's true and to match them with the right fit program. Then once they get to that program page, it's really about a pace and price. Um, you know, pace is when a lot of folks leave off, which is speed to completion. It's hard to calculate because it's not just the length of the program, it's the length of the program minus the credits you're able to transfer in.
Uh, and so that will help you figure out, well, can I finish this in six months or 12 months or two years? And folks are very much focused on that finish line and like, how can I. On the price side, you know, we talked a lot about this reality of, you know, okay, how do we, uh, not just talk about [00:27:00] credit? Mm-hmm.
one of the biggest mistakes in higher ed, people talk about cost per credit, which is a meaningless, uh, term to most students. And what they really want is a cost per course. What they really want is a cost per program. And so we can do that math for them and tell them that. Uh, and then the final one was probability.
Um, and that was really a, a can I or should I do at moment? And so people are kind of at this crossroads on the website. They're thinking about it. They don't want to give you information, they don't wanna apply cuz they know as soon as they do, you're gonna hound 'em and then you're not really sure they wanna do this yet.
Uh, and so folks like to sort of sit on the fence and think about things, especially large purchase decisions. This is the second largest purchase decision of someone's life outside of buying a house. And if someone is, is currently a renter, this is gonna be the most expensive thing they've ever done. So understandably they take time to evaluate.
And so, uh, that final one was the lesson he taught me the most, which is like, that's what creative does. Creative can really have a conversation about probability. It can leave people with a feeling and a sense that this institution gets me, this offering fits my lifestyle and I feel more confident with you than with someone else.
And that was really the task he gave us with creative was how do you [00:28:00] convey, um, that, that they have a higher chance of probability here. And not just with facts, but with feelings and get people to connect and get over the hump. So program, price, pace, and prob. Were the four P's that he really, uh, pushed.
And that's been a structure I've carried with me ever since. And it's been kind of a part of all the work I've, and
Jaime Hunt: that's clearly worked for the Southern New Hampshire
Seth Odell: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of very, very smart people at Southern New Hampshire University. Lot of people smarter than me, but they, during my time there, we grew from 7,000 to 7,000 students, and today there are over 165,000 students and I think they'll do over, you know, a billion dollars in tuition revenue this year.
And so extraordinary organization. Moved early when the window was. Uh, and operational acumen, you know, out the wazo, just unbelievably sharp folks from an ops perspective. And so, uh, but it did work and I think, you know, um, my job was the brand creative. So I did the TV commercials. I did 35 commercials while I was there, and, uh, played only a small role, um, but certainly got a chance to.
To hit on someone. [00:29:00] So
Jaime Hunt: my experience has been that a lot of institutions like, oh, we'll spin up online programs, but we're gonna approach the marketing in a very traditional way. And it's always seemed like institutions wanna bury that tuition information. Um, they wanna bar, everything's buried, like it's your, your website.
It shouldn't be a scavenger hunt to find out what a, what your tuition's gonna cost. It shouldn't be a scavenger hunt to find out what programs you have, and yet that seems to be the case. Why are universities doing that? Why are, why are we not more savvy about this?
Seth Odell: That is a great question. Um, so my, my subjective thought would be that I think historically institutions that are primarily traditional have had marketing departments that are primarily service units. And so they are providing marketing at the behest of those that are not marketers and traditional academic administration.
And so, um, you know, an academic administrator [00:30:00] or maybe a program chair, uh, they might be focused on like, how, like a, how can I fit all the program information possible on the webpage? Because I want someone to have all the information possible. Uh, and as a marketer, we might tell them, you know, actually, if you give the less information, it will give them a reason to contact you.
And then once they contact you, you can actually have the conversation. So we do wanna deliver. Like I, I've never met with an academic where I didn't share the desire to convey the information that they wanted. The only difference that we ever had was when we wanted to. And my belief is always that like there's a concept called messaging hierarchy, which is that like, you know what the student wants and needs at the point of pre-awareness, to awareness, to inquiry, to app start to apps that changes and like the conversation we have with them needs to evolve.
And so I wanna talk about all the specifics with them. Um, but if you put that on a website and you put that someone's gonna have to take three math classes, uh, what's gonna happen is they're gonna remember the time. Math was really hard either in high school or perhaps even in college when they started that program and didn't finish.
You know, math is one of the [00:31:00] primary drivers of students that actually drop out for an academic reason. And so you're putting them in a situation. English is the other for writing. We're like, you can overwhelm them. And, and yet if you waited and, and they. Then you can have this conversation of like, Well, did you know that we actually have 24 7 math tutoring?
Did you know that we have a writing center? You don't have to nail this essay. First time we're here. We have resources for you today that maybe didn't exist when you tried before, but we can't have that conversation on the website and, and, and predict every person's area of concern. But an enrollment representative on the phone absolutely can, That's their entire job is to coach through that conversation and try to figure out if there's a right fit there.
And so, um, you know, lean websites are, are far more functional. Homepage's only job with a homepage is to get people to a program. Uh, if I could wave one wand in higher ed, I would do away with every hero video that I've ever seen, ever that loads the site slow, that doesn't do anything for anybody. Um, and we're not quite there yet.
But I will say the institutions that are embracing. We're seeing a significant uptick. I mean, like, you know, it is not [00:32:00] hard for us at Canna Homa to increase our partners conversion rates, easily double digits on the homepage, sometimes triple digits, uh, in the span of like 90 to a hundred days. Uh, just by applying, uh, a lens where we put the prospective student first and we say we're here to address every one of their questions and concerns, but not on the website.
We're here to address the right amount of concerns, to connect them to the rep, to have the right amount of concerns addressed there. And let's let this conversation evolve, uh, rather than overwhelming. Um, you know, there's a reason why at the car lot they let you drive the car before they make you right.
Sit down with finance and read through everything, right? Like, let's build an emotional connection. Let's see ourselves, uh, being successful and having this experience. And then let's talk about the nitty gritty. Like, we're not here to trick anybody to go back to school in a program that's not right for them.
Um, but the reality is when our, when our obstacle is inertia, there's a lot of folks that just need the right support and the right encouragement. Uh, and one of those tools can actually be a website
Jaime Hunt: that says Less love. Love. I love that. Do you remember back in the olden days when I think it was Duke just had a search on their homepage that was their homepages, [00:33:00] just a search.
I kind of love that.
Seth Odell: Yeah. It's a big move. There's also what someone like was jokingly redesigning college pages as if they were Craigslist, and I was like, That's so great. Like that's, that's what they should be. I mean, it's just that, Well, because even then I'll say like, uh, not enough folks are redesigning their websites with performance as the primary motivator.
Like there's, there's so many examples where I see institutions like spend lots of time and money and launch a website, and then it like statistically performs worse. Like it loads slower, it has more. They load it up with all sorts of JavaScript. Like they're, they're doing all sorts of crazy things and they're doing it cuz they're trying to like subjectively appease an internal editorial lens that's totally disconnected from the realities of the market.
Uh, and uh, you know, unless you're the top 1% of institutions that have a brand that can carry that kind of a conversation, you know, the rest of the folks, especially really everyone in the non-traditional space by. Needs to think a little bit more like consumers and reduce friction and make things easier.
Uh, [00:34:00] school should be hard, uh, but going back to school should be. Uh, and everything that's outside of the classroom should be as easy as possible. And for some reason along the way, I think we have the idea of rigor and thought we'd apply it to the entire
Jaime Hunt: process of that. Well, and definitely. Well, I've mentioned earlier in this conversation the equity and access and all of that.
The harder you make it, the more that people who are first generation or you don't have a background in this, they're gonna fall off. They're going to fall through all those. I see those friction points as the cracks that people fall through.
Seth Odell: A hundred percent. And I think that not enough folks look at that.
And I think for institutions moving into the non-traditional space, it's really important to like self reflect on like missionally, how that connects. Um, you know, even during my time at Southern New Hampshire, the organization will be, I can't stress out. , great. That experience was, there was still some rubs with campus about the growth of online.
Uh, and I remember going all the way back to the history books and saying, Hold on, Like, we were founded in 1932 on [00:35:00] the second story of a fruit stand. And there's stories of students carrying handicapped students up the stairs to make sure they could make it to class. Uh, Southern Hampshire was the first institution in the country to offer payment plans.
You could pay by cash by week. And like along the way, it became a traditional campus. Uh, but these, but really when you look back on it, like this was a very different role. And, you know, we have a partner at Canna Home now that's, uh, really strong in the healthcare space and has a, it's a faith-based, uh, institution.
And we had a lot of conversations about, Well, let's go back to your founding, Let's really talk about, you know, what it is that we are being tasked to do. , not in every case, but by and large, you know, the founding with institutions was not to just provide traditional residential campus experiences to 18 to 22 year olds.
It was to address, to address broader, uh, and more significant societal needs that included 18 to 22 year olds, but not exclusively. Uh, and you know, the more we look back on it, the more I think we realized that, uh, , you know, something happened where we all started to worry about how elite we were and rankings and, and ex and we were exclusive and we were, you know, measuring success based [00:36:00] on who we denied, not based on who we educated.
Uh, and there the non-traditional side to this industry is shaking that off and I think it's so welcomed and so awesome. Um, but it still lingers. You know, every time US News puts out a new report, uh, it still hangs there, but there's a lot of great institutions that are doing meaningful work, I think, to, to change that
Jaime Hunt: in the hall, Right.
Have a friend and colleague who is spending, I think she said, $2 million a year toward getting US News and World Report rankings. Up and I just think about 2 million, do $2 million a year, and the number of students that, that could help with scholarships or the amount that you could be spending on support services or all of that just to move up in the rankings.
That is, that is it. And it's just so silly. Yeah,
Seth Odell: it, it is. And, and, and the sad part is that I don't, I've never really fully understood. Like the motivation behind it. Um, I'd like to think it's a marketing one, but as a marketer who has marketed us dues, there's only been a [00:37:00] few rare cases where we found a ranking that really mattered, um, and made any lance of a difference, you know, you know, top one number one value.
Sure. Okay. Like you can top that, uh, ucla, literally number one. Okay, sure, you can tap that. But for everybody else who's like, we're number 17 regional West, it's like literally no one cares. And all you're telling people is that there's 16 schools better. Um, and so if we're not doing it for marketing, like are we just doing it?
You know, and unfortunately, I think it's, it's an internal thing, whether it's board pressure or internal academic aspiration and the desire to, to conflate our own success, to make our own moves in the industry, whatever it is. I'm just so inspired by all the institutions that are taking hard stances against this movement and.
Um, I'm not opposed to rankings, I'm just opposed to the methodology and, you know, if we can do a better job of measuring outputs, not inputs, I'm actually fine with that. And the college scorecards attempted to do that, and there's a lot of flaws in it, but at least it was an attempt to move in that direction.
And, um, so I don't think there's anything wrong with helping, uh, [00:38:00] you know, helping consumers make connections in comparisons. Um, but if the idea is that we're gonna educate less people, so we rank. Uh, that's just not, that's not a great feeling and I, I don't know, can't imagine that.
Jaime Hunt: And trying parts like that get sort of false a apps so that you can deny more students so that that can improve your numbers.
Like what in the world?
Seth Odell: Yeah. Oh, that's so real. That is so real. And, and, and like, it's just, Yeah, there's a lot of games that people play, uh, pushing early, acceptance sooner to apply pressure to students, making them think they have to. Uh, early to get in, uh, and swinging. There's just a lot of, lot of gamesmanship and, uh, you know, the question would be, what if you could educate more and I'll say get, uh, you know, I've been part of institutions that have, that have served 500 students online and literally, you know, when I left new 77,000, um, I'm most proud of the breadth of impact.
And so it's pretty cool when it's like, you know, the more successful we are, the more students. , Um, not just, uh, the [00:39:00] more successful we are, the, the, you know, the number of students is fixed. So I'm a, I'm a big fan of open and mission institutions where it's variable and the better we are as marketers, the more we enroll and the more we're reaching students that otherwise would go nowhere or would go to a competitor where they maybe underserved.
That's, that's definitely the side of the space that,
Jaime Hunt: that, um, yeah. I'm Jens super passionate about access and affordability and making sure that we're serving students who. Maybe wouldn't have had a chance at a higher education, or they're looking for an opportunity to change not just the trajectory of their life, but the trajectory of their family and their communities.
It's just such an important part of being a citizen to have a good education. Just even beyond the, Yeah. Workforce benefits and the benefits to you. Personally, having an educated citizenry is just so, so important. And that means everybody. And whether that's higher education in the sense of a traditional college experience or, you know, the, the programs that you were mentioning that are, you know, boot camps or [00:40:00] whether that's going to school to become a welder or a forklift driver, but having some sort of opportunity to enrich your life through learning, I think is important.
Seth Odell: I totally agree and I, what just inspired me, I would say, I've never said this out loud, so I'll say it here. Uh, I would love to see more of our peers that we know in this industry leave traditional institutions for non-traditional ones, uh, or at least leave a traditional institution for one that's blended across the two.
Um, I just think we have such a, a wealth of talent in our space, and unfortunately a lot of it is leaving, which is a whole separate conversation. And I just think a lot of those folks would be, you know, deeply challenged and. Uh, moving into a non-traditional space that's more performance and data driven.
Uh, like this is a hard space to market in. Like every day I get up and it's like, wow. Like we, we are like, we are like after it. And it's so fun and it's so challenging and it's just very different than my experiences at more traditional elite institutions. Uh, and I'm sure that those experiences exist in some of those, uh, but for folks that are maybe thinking.[00:41:00]
Uh, moving to, to newer pastures, I would just say non-traditional pastures are waiting and those institutions are great and your, your talents could really be applied in a way to
Jaime Hunt: make a money. I have historically worked at access institutions and then briefly was at, um, a. A school that considered itself elite.
And it was sort of at like, I would describe it as kind of like the lower edge of the elite side of things. Like kind of just scrambling to keep grabbing that eliteness and it just wasn't for me like that, that feeling of, um, we're doing this because we want other people to view us. Great was just, it just wasn't a good feeling.
It didn't feel like it was about the students and the mission didn't really align with who I was personally. Um, and so I had a bunch of people say, Why, why would you leave what you had to go to kind of a, a regional campus? I mean, it's large and it's has a, a growing. [00:42:00] Number of programs, and it's like, because they have this entrepreneurial spirit where they're looking at what students want and need and are providing that instead of like, Oh no, you might want this, but we know better than you and we're gonna give you what we think you need.
Which is something that we have been doing for 200 years in the exact same way. Yeah,
Seth Odell: completely. I'll, I'll say, I mean, I'm a, I'm. Color from the side of the line that I'm on, but when I saw where you went, I was geeked out. I'm very familiar, have followed for a long time, and just the breadth of impact is so cool.
Um, I mean, the ability you, you know, uh, percentages stay the same, um, but the numbers get larger. Meaning like, you know, any institution says, Oh, we, we grew 5% year over year. Uh, that's meaningful. One of our partners, we've grown 30% year over year. Um, but when you, when you grow Yeah. In a down market, which is great, uh, when you grow 30% in a down market, you know, when you're talking about, you know, thousands of students on hundreds of students, it's pretty cool to step back and think, you know, we didn't beat our a goal and get an extra 50 students.
Not there's anything wrong. [00:43:00] That's wonderful. Uh, but you know, SNOO got me that taste of like, it's fun to think no, we're impacting thousands of lives. And so like the scale that you get to play at, um, and that we get to play with large fusions is just really fun and adds a whole other level of complexity too, because the types of marketing that you can do just totally open up and change.
Uh, and so it's just, uh, I don't know. I think it's a fun side of the
Jaime Hunt: space. I'm super happy to be at a place that sort of jives with my, my values and, um, I. If you haven't yet listened to the episode, um, where I interviewed Alan Stein, that was life changing. I was sitting and he was talking about how burnout doesn't come from being overworked.
Burnout comes with when your values are in conflict with the values of your leadership or your organization. And I had this moment of, Oh my God, that's why I'm burned out. Hmm. Two weeks later, the president of Old Dominion called me and said, Hey, would you like to come out here and interview? And it was like, [00:44:00] yeah, I was totally primed for it because of that conversation.
Seth Odell: Yeah, I, I used to sleep at the office at Southern New Hampshire. It was really like crazy. I, I'm, I'm down to work, but you're, it's, it's probably more the values thing, which is that like, I don't want to trade family time for work time. Um, I will work as hard as I possibly can within the windows that I.
And I really don't love that I have sacrificed some of those windows in order to get things done. Um, and so I gotta reflect on that. That's kind of deep. That might, um, help me answer a little bit on even what I'm going through, which is like I can push through and keep working hard. I like to work hard, I like to play hard.
Um, but I, maybe I'm not loving some of the trade offs. Confessions
Jaime Hunt: of a hierarchy. Amo changing lives. , that's what, yeah. Really That's like really good. This, this has been such an awesome conversation, Seth. You are awesome to follow on Twitter and I love your newsletter. Every time I read it, I'm like, That is awesome.
That is awesome. So you should, everybody, this thing should sign up for it, but where can people find you?[00:45:00]
Seth Odell: Okay, so, uh, I'm Seth Odel at pretty much everything, so Seth Odel on Twitter and LinkedIn. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I have a newsletter, which if you go to canna home.com, you can get, it's on the bottom of the, of the home page. Uh, the newsletter is like my fun favorite thing. I've loved writing it. I'm like, I just wish I had more time to write more consistently.
I really enjoy it. Twitter's my hot takes and like anybody can send me a requests on LinkedIn. Uh, I love, uh, this industry in this space. I feel like so grateful for everybody I've met, and so I am never one to shy away from a new connection or a new. So like folks can track me down at any of those, Canna home.com or Seth del, wherever, wherever they
Jaime Hunt: recommend.
I'll probably be there following him everywhere and signing up for those newsletters. I think I need to sign up on my ODU email now, but they're, I love how they're just really digestible. They're not big, giant blocks of text. They're just, You can gra, I think you use Bold to kind of guide people through the, the content.
You can tell that you're a, a really good content marketer or. [00:46:00]
Seth Odell: Ah, thanks. I appreciate that. Yeah, try to. Everyone's so busy, so I try to, My argument is always that every newsletter should be able to be read in three minutes or. So it's like just enough time to like have a sip of coffee and think about something.
Yeah. That's awesome.
Jaime Hunt: And then we're out the door again, you know. Well, thank you Seth. For listeners, you can always, uh, joining the conversation about this episode using the hashtag higher ed CMO on both LinkedIn and on Twitter. You can find me on, on both spaces on Twitter. I am Jamie Hunt imc. That's j a i m e.
H U N T I M C and on LinkedIn, I'm Jamie Hunt. I'm always eager to chat. You can pick my brain. Um, just like Seth. I really like connecting with people, so please feel free to reach out. I love hearing from listeners. And, um, in the meantime, let's go out there and bust some silos.
Zach Busekrus: Hey all, Zach here from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO with Jaime Hunt. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and [00:47:00] subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leading a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.
Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and. That are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional, but Enrollify is far more than just the podcast network.
Enrollify is where Higher Ed comes to learn new marketing skills, discover new products and services, and find their next job. We're a growing learning community of 4,000 members and we love to welcome you into the fold. You can access our free blog, articles, newsletters, e-courses, and more, or purchase our master course on how to market a university with Terry Flannery at enrollify.org.
We look forward to meeting you soon and welcoming you into the community. Again, you can subscribe for free at enrollify.org.[00:48:00]About the Episode
The what's what...
Seth Odell was part of the team that took Southern New Hampshire University’s online enrollment from 7,000 to 70,000, which makes him the perfect guest for Jaime to talk to about recruiting non-traditional – or, perhaps more aptly named “post-traditional” – students. As the demographics of the United States change, attracting these students into our programs can help our institutions survive – and thrive – as we approach the demographic cliff.
Takeaways from this episode include:
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Why “post traditional” is a better frame for this audience
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How marketing to this audience differs from recruiting first-time freshmen
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How institutions are approaching this wrong – and how to right those wrongs at your university
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What the selling points are for post-traditional students
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Ways to make it easier for post-traditional students to find the info they need to make a decision
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Ideas for rising above the noise in the marketplace
About Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO
Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO is sponsored by our friends at Mindpower- a full-service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly thirty years of needle-moving, thought-provoking, research-fueled creative and strategy. Mindpower is women-founded and owned, WBENC certified, nationally recognized, and serves the social sector – higher education, healthcare, non-profits, and more. The Mindpower team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experience creators. From market research to brand campaigns to recruitment to fundraising, the agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward.Learn more about Mindpower here!
Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you’ll like other Enrollify shows too!
Our podcast network is growing by the month and we’ve got a plethora of marketing, admissions, and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks all designed to empower you to be a better higher ed professional. Our shows feature a selection of the industry’s best as your hosts. Learn from Mickey Baines, Zach Busekrus, Jeremy Tiers, Corynn Myers, Jaime Gleason and many more.
Learn more aboutThe Enrollify Podcast Network at podcasts.enrollify.org. Our shows help higher ed marketers and admissions professionals find their next big idea — come and find yours!
About the Podcast
Transformation has been a hallmark of Jaime's career. In nearly 20 years working in higher education, she been part of four university rebrandings and five website overhauls. She's been hands-on in the development of an integrated marketing communications model at three institutions. As a result, she has gained extensive expertise in brand strategy, recruitment marketing, internal communications, crisis communications, issues management, online innovation, and media relations. She also has in her portfolio government relations and, for two years, she oversaw a public radio station. She is currently the vice president for university communications and chief marketing officer for Old Dominion University, a 23,000-student public R1 research institution in Coastal Virginia. Prior to her current role, she was the vice president and chief communications and marketing officer for Miami University (the one in not-as-sunny Oxford, Ohio). She also served in marketing and media relations leadership roles at Winston-Salem State University (North Carolina), Radford University (Virginia), the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh, and Northwestern Health Sciences University (Minnesota). Her background also includes more than four years as a print journalist and three years working for nonprofits and in nonprofit consulting. She earned my bachelor's degree in journalism from the University of Minnesota and her master's degree in integrated marketing communications from West Virginia University.
Widely considered one of the industry's leading enrollment marketing experts, Seth brings over 15 years of education marketing experience at some of our sector's top organizations, including Southern New Hampshire University, UCLA, National University System, and more. Today, he is Founder and CEO of Kanahoma, the fastest growing digital marketing agency in higher education.
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Mindpower
Mindpower is a full-service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly thirty years of needle-moving, thought-provoking, research-fueled creative and strategy. Mindpower is women-founded and owned, WBENC certified, nationally recognized, and serves the social sector – higher education, healthcare, non-profits, and more. The Mindpower team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experience creators. From market research to brand campaigns to recruitment to fundraising, the agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. Learn more about the amazing work Mindpower is doing here!
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Host Jaime Hunt engages in candid and insightful conversations with leading minds in the field, exploring not just the nuts and bolts of marketing, but also the diverse and often unexpected challenges and stories that define higher education marketing.
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