More Than Stress - Mental Health of Higher Ed Social Media Managers

Full Transcript

Jaime Hunt: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make. Managing social media is really, really hard, and I think that the difficulty of the role is underestimated by people in leadership. There's a lot of hate that comes at social media managers on a day-to-day basis from all of our constituents, and dealing with that can be really difficult, particularly in times of great.

Like what we just faced with the Covid Pandemic. Our guest today, ally Kenzie, is going to be talking about the research that she's done into the mental health impact of social media management in higher education. I think she's gonna have some great insights, and I hope that those of you who are listening will take heed of the vice she gives on how to address some of these challenges with you or with your staff.[00:01:00] 

Welcome to Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo, the podcast design for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jamie Hunt, and I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration with Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education marketing.

After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by using the hashtag higher ed C M O. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at at Jamie Hunt I m C, that's J A I M E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to connect.

So I'm really happy [00:02:00] to have Allie Kinzie here with me today. She is the director of Social Media at UNC Charlotte. Allie, 

Allie Keunzi: welcome to the. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I have heard your calming voice on the other side, so it's crazy to be here, . Well, I 

Jaime Hunt: am so happy to have you here. Allie is, I'm a huge fan of allie's.

She is just a fantastic leader in social media in higher ed, and I am delighted to be bringing her voice to the podcast. To start, Hallie, can you tell us a little bit about your higher 

Allie Keunzi: ed journey? It hasn't been that long. Actually. All of my professional roles have been in social media, but they have not all been in higher ed.

So I worked in college athletics for a little while doing social, and then I had, um, some experience. Into a nonprofit that funds childhood cancer research. So I dove into higher ed about three years into my career, and I think that background kind of gave me a nice [00:03:00] foundation to have spent time in other industries and to sort of compare higher ed with a critical lens, but also a new perspective.

Diviv and I am a first generation college student, so higher ed has always meant something more to me than some of the other industries that I have had the, the chance to sort of evaluate a role in. And um, I think it just represents progress opportunity. And I think social media is a really cool way to sort of extend that opportunity to others.

And that's what's kept me in higher. 

Jaime Hunt: And I'm so glad that we have someone with your talent in higher ed, and I've been privileged to be part of Allie's research for her master's thesis. You recently completed that and you were looking at work related mental health impacts of higher education's, social media professionals.

How did you become interested in this 

Allie Keunzi: topic? . So, uh, in my first job I was sort of [00:04:00] fresh out of college. I was handed the passwords to a major brand verified social media account, and that was it. No, no instruction, no roadmap, no sort of second set of eyes, and I learned so much from that job. . And one of the things I learned is that I never should have been trusted with that much, um, autonomy right off the bat.

But, um, as I advance in my career, I start to realize that that is actually kind of the norm for people to walk into those roles in that situation, and especially in higher ed, I feel like there's this little bit of like a perfect storm brewing in that the job is typically misunderstood. and because people use social media in their daily lives, they find it kind of hard to understand a job in the space.

And when they do, they see sort of the Wendy's of the world and Netflix and Moon Pie and all these very fun social media accounts. And I think they, they [00:05:00] can think that you post, you know, fun things on the internet all day, which is actually spoiler alert. They also have a strategy and they are not doing that just for fun either.

Social media really is actually just the medium and the job is video and design and photography and copywriting and issues management and customer service. And it's so much more, I think, than people necessarily give it credit for or understand. So, um, I think with that misunderstanding comes a lack of resources and.

It's often sort of assumed that social media is an intern's job or part of someone's job, and it's really a space that never stops moving. So you're, you're there with no resources. Not a lot of people understand what you do, but you're doing it all the time. I always kind of joke from a higher ed perspective that universities are like small cities where you have transportation and housing and dining and recreation and, and really that's, that's a huge undertaking from [00:06:00] a social media perspective.

And in our space issues kind of bubble up to the top on social media first. research has shown that excessive social media use already prompts some poor mental health outcomes, and so higher ed being as complicated as it is, social media being as crazy as it is, I think those two sort of crash into each other and create a pretty concerning mental health outlook for higher ed social media managers.

Back in 

Jaime Hunt: probably 2013, I did a presentation for, um, higher ed experts about what if social media is the crisis. And that was, you know, there's a lot that bubbles to the surface on social media. A lot of times crises begin there. And has that been your experience during your time working in higher 

Allie Keunzi: ed? . Yes.

I feel like there's probably, I could count on one hand something that did not either start there, gain traction there, or end up on social media. And I [00:07:00] think the strategy is different depending on which it, which it is true. So if it, if it does start, that's, that's a. You know, a deployment of resources in a certain way.

Um, if we're tracking it for a long period, that's a whole different sort of strategy. And then if it has to conclude there with a statement or an acknowledgement from a, a leader on social media, that's entirely different. So even in that one example, it's a really nuanced sort of approach. And it can change depending on any number of things.

like you mentioned, it can change on the platform, it can change on the algorithms that are, you know, present there. It's just, uh, the wild West, as we say. Yeah, 

Jaime Hunt: absolutely. So tell me a little bit about the research you did into the mental health impacts of social media in higher education. Who did you survey for?

Allie Keunzi: So there's a professional network called hashtag higher ed Social that serves around 11,000 higher ed social media managers across the country and [00:08:00] internationally. And I felt like that was a really good place to start. And luckily I reached out to Cassandra Sereno, who is the founder of the group, and she was super supportive of this research, um, and was kind enough to sort of promote it there.

So that was a really good foundation of participants and. to be included in the participant pool. You had to of course be a current higher education social media manager, but also social had to represent 50% or more of your work because we do see a lot of people have social as part of their job or you know, they've sort of taken it on informally and it's not in their description.

So we were hoping to sort of get as many purely social media managers as we could, but we know that that's not always possible. in terms of what I asked, I think the questions sort of were intended to understand if higher education, social media managers were experiencing mental health impacts beyond what could be categorized as sort of like a healthy level of [00:09:00] workplace stress.

Because we all have things that stress us out or that, you know, worry us or. Or whatever in our daily lives at work. And then the other piece was to assess overall if their work environment sort of contributed to that level of stress. So this included some foundational questions about their team size and how long they've been in higher ed.

Number of hours spent on social media were a few of them, and then it was more focused on their job environment itself. if they felt like their job was understood heavily by different populations that they work with, how often they felt caught up on their work in general, if they felt like their institution supported mental health or staff mental health more particularly, and then how comfortable they felt sort of utilizing resources on campus or talking to their direct supervisor about their mental health and.

One of the most important pieces is really [00:10:00] asking them foundationally if they had been diagnosed with a mental health disorder before, and then regardless of that, if they experienced any symptoms of some common anxiety and depression related disorders, like generalized anxiety disorder. So that component was to try to illustrate.

Everyone is stressed at work at times, but this is, this is a different environment and this is something we need to look at more from a clinical lens. When I 

Jaime Hunt: think about social media managers and everything that they face on a day-to-day basis, just from a customer service lens, and when people are angry with a brand or something, they sort of lash out on social media and it's real people on the other side of that.

Probably absolutely nothing to do with whatever the person is upset about, but you kind of have to just absorb that hatred all day It seems like. 

Allie Keunzi: Absolutely. And I joke with my team sometimes that I like press send and then wanna close my computer and take a long vacation, . Right, [00:11:00] right. Um, because you are a human on the other side of that and, um, it's hard not to internalize when they're saying you or you guys or you all and you start to like read it as you after a while and it takes some time.

You know, I'm, I'm probably better at it now than I was when I first. in social media, but it, it takes some conditioning on your part to understand that you are a university, you are an entity, and it's not you personally. Um, . I've actually even seen some people be like, I'm really mad at you Ticketmaster, but not your social media person.

And I think those people are rare, but we appreciate them on our side of things too. . 

Jaime Hunt: Absolutely. I remember when I was managing social media, I really wanted to be like, I'm a person. I'm a really nice person. Even if you meet me, you might like me. Um, and, and I was speaking to a class once and there was a student in the class who had.

Throwing a lot of shade at the university on social media, and I [00:12:00] recognized his name. And when I was talking about like building your personal brand, I was like, and if your social media account is full of attacking, uh, other brands on social media, you might not get an internship with my office in the future.

And the dude deleted everything. It was. It was hilarious. He looked terrified. I was like, I'm looking at you buddy. Looking at Buddy . But it's, we're an easy punching bag. Right? Right. 

Allie Keunzi: Absolutely. And you know, I. . I think that there's this, you know, being, this sense of being anonymous on social media that really emboldens people sometimes.

And then when you do sort of pull back the curtain, we do try to address as many concerns as we can and answer as many questions as we can and people will be. or seem very angry as they're tweeting at the university. But then when you direct message them and you're like, hi, I'd love to learn more what your like, what has your experience been?

How can we support you? They start to become really nice and they're like, wow, I never thought you would see that. I never thought you would [00:13:00] respond to this. Thank you so much. And it really is a reminder that I think. , you know, behind the brand there are people, but when you do make that one-on-one connection as much as possible, I think it really helps to sort of reinforce that and reinforce that there is someone looking at these things.

We are gonna respond. And I think that gets lost sometimes in the mix because there's just so much going on on social media that it's really easy to start to, you know, be brand forward instead of person forward. 

Jaime Hunt: Hey all. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I wanna take a moment to thank my friends at mindpower who are making season two of this volfi podcast.

Possible. Mindpower is a full service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly 30 years of needle moving, thought-provoking, research, fueled creative, and. Mindpower is woman founded and owned, W B E N C, certified nationally. [00:14:00] Recognized and serves the social sector, higher education, healthcare, nonprofits, and more.

The MINDPOWER team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experienced creators. From market research to brand campaigns to recruitment to fundraising, the agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. You can learn more about their work in the world by heading on over to Mind Power Inc.

That's m I n D P O W E R I N c.com. And be sure to tell the crew that Jamie sent you their way. So I would love to talk a little bit about your findings. What did your research uncover? 

Allie Keunzi: Sure. So, um, I'm not really sure what I expected. I, I guess I went in with not a lot of expectations and, and what we did learn, I thought was super.

Insightful. So to start, the results indicated that about 50% of participants had previously been diagnosed with [00:15:00] a mental health disorder. And I'm not sure really what I expected, but I think that was more than I anticipated. And. Regardless of that diagnosis, everyone, all of the participants experienced an average of 10 out of 18 of the symptoms of the disorders that were included in the assessment.

So the top symptoms were being easily fatigued and experiencing low energy, feeling keyed up or on edge, um, experiencing irritability and muscle tension and sleep disturbance. So I. that was a wide gamut of symptoms that ex, I think, have an impact on your daily life in a lot of different ways. And it wasn't that these were the top symptoms among a couple of people.

It was like 75% or more of participants had experienced these. And it really put into perspective that this is not something that you just leave with you when you close your [00:16:00] computer. These are. People experiencing real things. And there were a couple of of other things that they didn't feel like their jobs were well understood.

Um, they were not regularly caught up on your work. So if you imagine and put yourself in the shoes of someone experiencing those symptoms, it's just sort of a snowball effect where you're also not getting caught up and nobody understands when you talk to them about what you're doing. So it was not, not.

Jaime Hunt: That's really depressing actually, that that's a huge percentage of people struggling. Did your studies show any reasons why people might be experiencing these sorts of things? 

Allie Keunzi: So we did ask if there was an intervention or action that could impact their mental health in a positive way. And I think that sort of uncovers the reasons that people experience these things in the first place.

And I think what they hope is different is more bandwidth. Um, having time to actually [00:17:00] disconnect from, I guess anything digital. Their phone, their computer. , you know, email. Mm-hmm. , better work-life balance was a huge sticking point. More understanding of their jobs and recognition from leadership. . Many of the qualitative answers in this section were time to actually disconnect, but really, really disconnect.

I think there was a big desire to actually be able to step away and not step away, but be on call or step away, but understand that if you know a crisis were to occur, then you're at work. There was a big sense. No, not only do people not know what I do, but I also hear nothing from those in leadership positions about trying to learn more or acknowledging that this is a 24 7 job, or that we do re receive a lot of negative feedback on social media that we internalize.

Many people were just looking for a good job. Or a I C U and I, [00:18:00] I, I appreciate what you're doing on behalf of our brand. And so I think all of those together, certainly from different angles, can start to wear on a person after a while. Did 

Jaime Hunt: your study reveal whether higher ed social media managers are bringing their concerns to their supervisors?

Allie Keunzi: Yes and no. In general. The results, at least from this study, showed that people weren't sure about talking about their mental health at work, and when asked if they felt comfortable talking to their direct supervisor, the answers were around five out of a scale of 10, where 10 was feeling super comfortable with doing so.

So I'm not sure they're wholly uncomfortable, but they're also not very comfortable and they're floating somewhere in the middle. I'm not sure how I feel about this. And ultimately, about half of the participants had done so already and the other half had not. for the ones that have not, they named stigma and fear of [00:19:00] being perceived differently as the main reasons for not doing so.

And many of them elaborated in, you know, a free response section that they felt like they would receive less work on their plates or, you know, that stigma would be carried forward into future projects. And so, , there's a really pervasive feeling that I'm gonna be treated differently if I do speak about my mental health and if I do reach out to somebody in a work capacity.

For those that had they, the answers were kind of all over the place and their experiences had all been really different with doing so. , you know, I'd like to think that they're all positive. And some of them were, and they were that their supervisor immediately took action of some sort. Um, they felt validated at the least, or were encouraged to sort of prioritize or set boundaries.

And I think those were the best case scenario. And then, The majority of the times that people did reach out to their supervisors, they were somewhere in the middle. So [00:20:00] they said, I felt heard at the time, but no long-term solutions were implemented or I was encouraged to enforce boundaries, but when I actually did, I was sort of criticized for not being a team player or not being engaged enough.

And I think that. Leads to the other end of the spectrum, which is some people just had a really poor experience with talking about these things with their supervisor. . Some said they felt punished, some said they felt dismissed at the time, or they were promised that the issues would be addressed and they never were.

A couple of people actually said that they felt their supervisors were experiencing similar issues and they weren't in a place to support them in, in their journey because they were also having the same things happen to them. So, um, a really interesting sort of mix of. Yes, it went well. No, it didn't go well.

I'm scared to even do it from at least this sample size. I 

Jaime Hunt: wonder how supervisors [00:21:00] can be more receptive or how supervisors can convey that they are willing to. Listen and hear and that like, do you think that supervisors should be asking, actively asking their social media managers and honestly probably everybody on their teams, but asking them how they're doing, like how would you suggest approaching that conversation?

Allie Keunzi: Yeah, I do. And I think because it can be kind of scary. You never wanna be like, so how's your mental health ? Right. Um, be so, you know, casual with it, but I think. It would be easier if they were to spend some time with their social teams and not in a way of like, I'm here to ask you about your mental health and, and where you're at with it.

But I think having lunch with them sometimes or joining them on a shoot if they're going out to a location somewhere for getting content, um, Hanging out in their office and just saying, Hey, can I see what you have going on? Or especially in a time of [00:22:00] crisis where they're reporting on sentiment and volume of conversation and things like that.

I think just trying to be sort of in the driver's seat with them, or I guess in this case, in the passenger seat. Um, Would be a good start because I think it helps to sort of make it less of a scary thing to then see what they do and then say, how does this impact you? And I, I've experienced this with you even for just a short time, and I've seen that you've been online for, you know, these four hours, or I've seen that you answered that email at 10:00 PM and start to use some of those experiences that they have with them to sort of enter into the conversation about mental health.

And then I think from there, just being as authentic as possible and, and just being sort of a listening ear would be a good place to start. Do you think 

Jaime Hunt: that these mental health impacts are causing people to consider changing careers and should that worry supervisors? 

Allie Keunzi: I absolutely think they are. Um, [00:23:00] we've been hearing about this great resignation for a while now, and I don't think this role is spared from that at all.

I think when asked to name one action or intervention that could have the most impact, like we talked about earlier, there was a significant subset of people that said the only intervention would be leaving my job. Mm-hmm. . And to, to have gotten there, I think takes a long road of feeling burnt out or feeling under-resourced or feeling overwhelmed.

And you. People noted that they would need multiple interventions for even a slight increase in their mental health. Um, some indicated that they're leaving higher ed and social media, so it's not one or the other, but I think it's this mix of the two that can be very overwhelming. And then one had just given their notice and saw that the university was hiring two jobs in the [00:24:00] place of their one job.

I think yikes, . I know, I, I think that it's, it's hard to see, um, and it's hard to know that people are experiencing these things and. it should be concerning, I think for higher ed leaders in, I think the main reason why is the level of institutional awareness that these people carry with them all the time is almost frightening.

Um, we, and I say we cuz I, I feel like I earned that badge. . Um, internally sort of, well, we internalize and apply immense levels of feedback to work moving forward. And so we are like this constant circle. , how people feel about the university, how they mistook that thing that I said, how this other thing worked really well and sort of regurgitating that, those learnings in everything we do.

And, um, I think that it, this, it builds this body of knowledge of past [00:25:00] issues and current pain points and winds and pride building things and. That goes away and you start from scratch and it's really hard to build it again and it takes a long time. And then if, if that person is experiencing these same mental health issues at work or because of work, then it's this constant cycle of building these really, really experienced people with your brand and then they leave.

So, I think that institutional knowledge is really hard to come by, and especially if you have someone who you trust to handle sensitive issues on social media or, you know, know when to respond and not to engage is, is something that's really valuable and I think that's at stake here. If, if those people don't feel like they have a place where their mental health is cultivated at.

Jaime Hunt: do you think there's anything unique to higher ed that leads to this being more prevalent or do you think this probably exists across social media managers in 

general? [00:26:00] 

Allie Keunzi: That's a good question. I think there, there are a couple things that are probably for social media managers everywhere, so you just get on.

the platforms because that's where you work. But you see politics and you see bad news, and you see natural disasters and all of that advertising. I think, you know, the list goes on there that all of that starts to weigh on you after a while, and there is not advanced enough of a, a platform where you can get away from it, but still do your job in those spaces.

I think that's probably true of every social media job. And, you know, setting boundaries is really important to try to eliminate a little bit of that, but you can't really totally do it. I think it's more specific to higher ed, just given the nature of universities, like the small city thing that we talked about earlier.

Um, you know, faculty, there's so many different personalities on campus. [00:27:00] There's, there's so much going on that there is not. Corporate equivalent that I can think of. And it's just, it's like you, you can't know what you're getting into unless you're in it. And at that point you're juggling different, you know, divisions or departments or majors or colleges or centers on campus.

And everything's just so dense that I think it really magnifies some of the things that people can experience on social media as. 

Jaime Hunt: when you probably face a little bit of that, what you alluded to earlier where, where folks feel like social media is. as a job is sort of the same as having a social media presence in your personal life.

And then you have that divide, I think between academics and staff where it's like, oh, a, a PhD is what's required to get respect on campus at a lot of institutions. Not every institution, but some. And so when you kind of combine this sort of [00:28:00] scoffing at the role of a social media manager, The scoffing at somebody for maybe not being a PhD or not being an academic.

Those two things combined I think could probably cause some pretty big divides in, um, the respect that you get across the institutions, which is so unfortunate. 

Allie Keunzi: Totally, 100%. And I think another factor is that, at least in my team's experience, we all skew younger. And I think by nature, you know, , some of us are digital natives and we, you know, we kind of grew up with social media, so it's this thing that we've experienced, you know, in our, in our own lives.

But it, it's not very foreign to us because it's just always been around and, um, I think it can be this foreign, what are we doing? Why are we doing this differently? You know, preference towards the more traditional forms of media, because that's also what they have known on campus. If they are, [00:29:00] you know, a little bit more seasoned.

I think there's that and I, I think the, the sort of divide could be shifted in sort of a bridge built between academics and staff or faculty and staff by sort of this understanding that all we want is more eyes on what you are doing. You are the subject matter expert and we respect that. And all we want is for more people to know that about you.

and how do we have that conversation and how do we shift it towards your research is so important. We have this incredibly visible tool to help tell that story and to help bring this to more people. And I think if we approach it like we're on the same team and you know, we want the same things and we want people to come here so they can be a part of the stuff that you're doing, then I think that's an important piece to try to build some understanding between the two.

Jaime Hunt: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there's. you alluded to, like there's young people on your team or [00:30:00] younger people on your team, but I started working in social media as a. On a professional level in 2008, using social media specifically to target journalists, to pitch stories, um, specifically on Twitter.

Um, and that's 15 years ago, right? Like, so there's a lot of people who've been working in social media for a really long time, um, and people who have a depth of expertise. Across a large number of platforms and understanding the shifting algorithms that exist, that, that dictate how your content is presented and what you can share and sort of community guidelines across all of these different platforms.

And then you have all these platforms that are emerging that you kind of have to keep your finger on. And when is it a good time to start investing time and resources into a platform? This is a very sophisticated job that requires some very, um, specialized knowledge and. It sort of, um, surprises me that there are still people who think we should just hand the keys over to, you know, an 18 year [00:31:00] old intern, um, because they have a great, um, Instagram account with, you know, it, it's a level of sophistication that I think is.

Just beyond what most higher ed jobs are in terms of communications, like it's not, it's copywriting, it's graphic design, it's customer service. It's being an ombudsman for your audiences, understanding, um, issues management, all of these things that you talked about earlier. These are sophisticated jobs and I'm not sure that we're paying well enough for them.

I'm not sure that we're tit. Thumb correctly. Nina, I love that your title is, is Social Media Director. How did you get to the point where that, um, was your title? Because not very many institutions have people with that title. 

Allie Keunzi: Absolutely. And I have to just say, I feel so seen by everything that you have said.

So for all the other social managers listening, I hope that you did too. Um, director came about [00:32:00] because I, I feel like I just would not. Being in the room , I just, I just wouldn't allow, like, I'd be like, so what is the social media approach there? What's going on here? And I just constantly feel like it's so important to advocate in the spaces that you have and to sort of like claw at these opportunities to enter social media into the conversation.

Not necessarily myself, but when I first started, they're just, well, I guess specifically when I first started at my current job. , it was a per a one person team, as we see so prevalently and even 50% of my participants said they were still a one person team. Um, and you know, He was doing all he could and everything was as much as he could do.

That was the processes that we had. And so I tried to look at social at that level of like building an infrastructure, building some resources that others could learn from building [00:33:00] processes around social that weren't there before. And I think that's another level of people thinking this is a fun job, but really, especially if you're walking into a situation where you're a team of one.

The work is actually, or what people see on social media is actually just the end of what I do. What I actually do is creating these in-depth processes and coordinating with campus communicators and trying to find the right angle to a story and making sure it's within the character limit and all of these things that are unseen.

And I just kept sort of advocating and kept talking . Um, I think I was manager of social media strategy in there and then, eventually those conversations started to pay off where people started to be like, Hey, there, there is something going on over here, or This does drive recruiting, or this is strategic.

And I think just providing a lot of data of, of showing we are moving the needle and of course we're not, we can't directly say one student enrolled [00:34:00] because of what I did on social media, but it's a huge component of awareness and recruitment that. , you know, providing data and just socializing that data as much as possible allowed our team to grow and allowed people to start investing in us as a resource and understanding more of what we do.

And I think we've grown since 2018. We were a team of one, and now we're about to be a team of five, which wow was also not really something that we saw really prevalently among participants either. I think it was. 75% of teams were two people or less, which is still crazy to think about. 

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Jaime Hunt: So when you think about your [00:36:00] team and, and the group that you lead, how are you managing your mental health and their mental health? What advice do you have for others in that same situation? 

Allie Keunzi: I think that's why I feel very passionately about this because when I go to work every day, I see people in the shoes that I used to be in, and I think I have, I've had leadership before who saw where I was, and I think it's been such a, a journey to get to that point that I really think anytime I can, I try to offer them as much flexibility as possible.

I think that means, Where, you know, appropriate letting them work in a flexible work environment. I think with schedule and location, because their job is 24 7 because they're online all the time, I don't need to see you to see that you're physically doing your work. And, um, I think that's a major piece of it.

I think. Extending Grace [00:37:00] where, you know, at the beginning of our meetings we say, does anybody have anything that they wanna just get off their chest? And it's a invitation to say, I'm not feeling my best today, or I had a bad night, or anything else that I think acknowledges their humanness that they carry to work with them every day.

And they can choose not to say anything at all and just say, yeah, I'm fine. I'm working through some personal things and I may be a little short today, or it's not an invitation to share everything and your deepest, dark, darkest secrets. It's what do you want us to know about how you're coming to work today?

And I think it's the least we can do to acknowledge that as we move forward. Um, so I think it's flexibility. I think it's acknowledging that they are humans and I think it's really open conversation. . I really and truly feel like nothing is more important than our collective mental health. And so if you have something you wanna talk about, if you have something that is bothering you, I think just being [00:38:00] available and asking, what do you need from me, from this conversation?

And do you want me to move something forward? Do you want me to just listen? Do you wanna take some time with this? And I think just really communicating all the time is something that I feel like our team. Really good at and helps to sort of come at things with assuming the best intent possible because we're talking so often that we, we really try to make it a point to say like, I, I believe that you came to this with your best effort, or I believe that you, you did what you could with this situation.

And in terms of advice for other people, um, I would say you're definitely not alone because. There's a whole host of people in the higher ed social group talking about this all the time. But this study found that it didn't matter, you know, how long you had worked in higher ed, what your job level was, how many people were on your team.

None of that correlated with [00:39:00] any sort of like better or worse mental health. So I think, you know, your feelings are valid no matter where you fall in that spectrum. And I guess the second thing would be to. , it takes some time to develop a mental health plan for yourself. Mm-hmm. . And I think that can seem, you know, really dry and not very, you know, fun thing to think about.

But it's also overwhelming for the path forward to be unclear. And when you're mired in all of these, you know, things that go on in your day to day, it's really easy to put off the mental health conversation even with yourself of like, I'll deal with that later. I'll figure that out eventually. But I think being really intentional about a plan.

And, and finding what works for them. So that could be, are you a person who likes to have in-person resources or do you wanna do a digital resource for your mental health? And is that better or, you know, should you consider talking to a professional? And what does that [00:40:00] look like? Would you address your personal mental health or your professional mental health, or do you feel like they're connected with one another?

And then what does your next step in your career journey look like? And that can be a scary one. Um, but I would just. Say that their health and wellness is, is way more important than any job that they have. And if your environment is not conducive to a good mental health outlook for you, then it may not be worth continuing in that job.

And even if they're sort of uncomfortable talking with their supervisor, I think. , I would just encourage them to still continue to advocate for what they need, even if it's not mental health, even if they're not ready for that conversation yet. That's, that's so understandable. And, and I think where a lot of people find themselves, but they can advocate for resources and, and to be in the conversation more, and I think those things are an important step towards good mental health in a professional capacity as.

Jaime Hunt: For the [00:41:00] CMOs or you know, AVP level people who are listening, what advice do you have for us about, um, helping our teams with their mental health? 

Allie Keunzi: Um, do you have like five more hours, ? Um, I think the main thing is investment in your social media teams and. I feel like that is true in every sense of the word investment.

I think it's time, money, energy, you know, everything. I think they've earned it in, in the trenches that they've sort of been in, and I think it's mostly more people. And that was the main thing we saw from the survey too, is. I just need help and I, I want somebody to look at my workload and how many hours there are in a day and make those things match up together because they almost never do.

And you would never have one person managing your entire website or one person managing your entire email strategy and writing every [00:42:00] email. So I think that logic applies here too. And even if not, , you know, specific social media positions. I think there's a lot of ways to sort of stretch your social IQ across your team or with different things that you do invest in.

So team-wide social media training for the people you do have on your teams, if nothing more than to create some bench strength or, you know, options for your team to not be online all the time because somebody else knows what to look out for or what to do. software, like a social media management tool or you know, a, a contract with an external vendor who may have that expertise and.

Creating sort of these opportunities for your social media team to rest or to focus or you know, just to think. A lot of social media is on the fly and you know, Taylor Swift releases a new album. So what is our approach for that? That sort of brings us into that fold and brings us into the conversation.

Those things have to have to happen too, and they have [00:43:00] to have time to do that. So whether there's more people or more bandwidth in other ways, I think. , you'd see a return on your investment pretty quickly. Um, and I think creating a planned schedule of people monitoring or doing social media listening, so it's on a cycle.

So I know maybe my days are Monday and Wednesday, but I know that every other day of the week, that week I can, I can actually close my computer after work and I don't have to be on social media all the time. and you know, considering the expertise or, or people who have social media expertise when you're hiring new jobs, I think there are a lot of different angles that, you know, either together or you know, piecemeal could definitely move the needle for your social media team in a way that would hopefully give them.

Not only some rest, but show that you are investing in them. And I think the second thing is just overall, and this is true for social media teams, but [00:44:00] also other teams on campus, is building this culture of care where they don't have to wonder if you care about their mental health. So I think we all have voices on campus that are advocating for mental health and talking about it and researching it, but bringing them to the forefront a little bit more prominently.

Building mental health messaging into messaging you're already doing. So if the semester's ending or you know, there's a break coming up or you know, it's a particularly stressful time in enrollment, I think acknowledging that mental health is a factor that we're all experiencing is good. And then, um, I think one of the biggest things, and even, you know, some people reported this in the survey is, Their leadership demonstrating care for their own mental health.

So setting that out of office when you're, you know, on vacation and not responding to emails or acknowledging their humanness when they join a meeting of like, you guys, I just got off a weird call. Or like, whatever that may look like. [00:45:00] I think, um, We wanna see that our leaders are doing what they expect us to do and are taking the time and are being careful about their own mental health to show that we have the space to do that too.

And that can be something that just flies under the radar. And then, One person in the survey said, we talk about mental health, but we don't practice it. And we talk about, you know, taking care of ourselves, but then my boss is emailing me at midnight also. So I think that's the biggest thing really is, is modeling that mental health behavior for your teams as well.

I think that's 

Jaime Hunt: super, super important and um, in the interest of transparency. A while ago at a previous institution I had, uh, um, I was experiencing extreme burnout and I had a staff meeting with my team and I. Um, expressed to them that I hoped that they would, you know, if they had any mental health concerns or if [00:46:00] they were struggling in any way.

Please feel free to come, you know, schedule a time to talk with me or talk with their supervisor. If the challenges that you're having are because of the stress that you're experiencing and you're considering leaving higher ed or leaving your job because of that, like, let's have a conversation. What can we do to try to.

Make some shifts and changes in your job. And I, I could see everybody like, yeah, yeah. Okay. And then I said, and, and I'm going to share candidly that I'm experiencing burnout right now. I'm feeling very, very, very burned out, very tired. Um, And I kind of was candid about what, what I was going through and the number of people that came up to me afterwards and said that the fact that I shared that I was also having some struggles made them feel much more comfortable in coming forward with any challenges that they were having.

It was amazing because it wasn't just lip service at that point. It was me saying like, we're all human [00:47:00] beings and we're. Struggling, but it also showed them like, I'm gonna understand what they're saying. If they're saying they're burned out, it's easier for that them to say that to somebody who's saying, I've experienced this too.

And I think another time of, of great vulnerability in my career is, you know, when my father was dying and I was honest with my team about how I was doing and I, I got quite emotional in a meeting and I think everybody on the. Almost to a person, um, came up to me afterwards and felt like they. Felt like they were reporting to a human being because I was human in those moments.

And I'm not saying as a CMO that we should dump all of our problems on our teams at all. I don't think that's a good idea. Um, we're not, um, our staff aren't our therapists. Like, please don't read that into this. But I think showing that we are human, I think makes people understand that or makes people believe.

that [00:48:00] we understand that they are human too. So if you're this sort of S heroish type person, this perfect person or this person who's like, I've got it all together, or whatever, that I think makes it. More challenging for someone to come to you with, with concerns that they have about their mental health.

So I really encourage, um, the leaders, uh, um, who are listening to think about that vulnerability and how you can use it, um, to really make a connection with your team and, and help them to see the possibilities of what could be different, um, if they have a conversation with you. And, and one other thing I, I tip I wanna give that I've tried and I've found to be really effective, As if you do have a small social media team and you know that you're making an announcement that's going to trigger a significant amount of.

For lack of a better word, hate tweets. Um, in response to think about pulling people from your team who don't day-to-day work in [00:49:00] social media to help supplement that person that manages it day to day. Um, we did a lot of cross-training at a previous institution, so everybody had the access. Um, they knew how to, how to interact.

They'd had training and all of that. And, and especially during covid. Covid first started and we were doing things like announcing you're not gonna have a commencement ceremony that broke a lot of people's hearts and people were really upset and hurt. And for one person to manage all of those conversations, it wasn't realistic and it wasn't fair.

And honestly, we actually took her fully off of social for that day. Um, and let the other team members, um, manage the response to those for that initial reaction. Um, because. She had been dealing with all this anger and angst and frustration about Covid leading up to that, to expect her to then deal with the response, um, that people were having about just something.

It's really honestly tragic to have to cancel a commencement ceremony or cancel. Homecoming. [00:50:00] And so making sure that she didn't have to bear the brunt of that all on her own. So I know not everybody has a, a budget where they can have multiple people in, in a social media, media role, but you can ask other people to kind of step in and, and help out and give that person a chance to not be the sole voice.

Those, um, situations. Um, and those are just a couple of the, of things I've tried that I think are effective. But I really, really encourage everybody listening to think about just the challenge of, of being in a space that is. Very full of hatred. Sometimes frustration, anger, but also a space. You know, I see so many people say, I feel so much happier after I've deleted social media off my phone.

Cause I'm not hearing all the bad news of the day. And it's like, well, right. But if that's your job, you don't have a choice. Um, and, and I want people to feel, I want people to come to work and feel supported and, and cared about and [00:51:00] like they're humans. And my friend Kevin McClure at UNC Wilmington, who's just a fantastic human being, talks a lot about creating a caring university.

And that starts with us. And I'm, I'm applauding Allie for, you know, leading from wherever she was in the org chart, do the role, um, in a way that was sane. You can lead from wherever you are. You don't have to have director in your title, you don't have to have vice president anywhere in your title. You can lead from anywhere.

And so, you know, take the opportunity to have a voice and make a difference. And, and I'm just, I'm so proud of Allie. I, I've known Allie for a little while and it's been just so exciting to see her, um, grow and blossom. Um, do you have any other resources, Allie, that you can recommend for listeners on, on these challenges?

Allie Keunzi: You know, I can't say enough about that hashtag higher ed social professional network, and they are really, the conversations that happen in there are truly across the [00:52:00] board, it is mental health, but it's also what social media management platform do you use? Or how do you get your boss to understand not to do something or that we should be doing something?

Or how are you, you know, in the time of covid that you mentioned, how are you all doing a virtual commencement ceremony? I'd love to hear your ideas and. , that group is so wonderful. Um, and I think something that speaks to what you just mentioned is there are not a lot of resources out there for this group right now.

Um, aside from that network. And you could be the one that starts it, you know, you could be the one that rallies the people on your campus or that reaches out to say, Hey, there's this subset of us that have a lot of things in common. Or, you know, maybe it's a community college group or maybe it's, you know, Universities in urban settings or things that, you know, make you guys different or maybe you don't have to be different at all, maybe, or maybe, you know, things can be however, and you guys can still share resources and still [00:53:00] share learnings with one another.

So if it doesn't currently exist on your campus, or if you don't know of one, then I think that's a, a perfect opportunity to start and to, to sort of start those conversations and see where they lead, you know? We are on social media all the time, and we see that all the bad parts, you know, but there also are some good parts, and I follow so many social media thought leaders on social media, and it's actually one of the.

Only, you know, things I use social media for is to follow other social media people. So it's kind of like ironic, but I think connect with those people digitally and, and reach out to the people that you respect in that space and, and start those conversations if you don't feel like you have resources or, or don't know where to start.

And, um, That's actually what I did with Jamie, everyone, so shoot your shot. Because I love her and I loved her work and I was like, Hey, we should be best friends. And, and, and now I'm on a podcast. So , I think be, be sort of brave and reaching out [00:54:00] and. . And I think part of the success of this project was that there were so many supportive people in this community who shared the link or who I reached out directly to, and they were like, thank you for doing this work.

And they participated and shared with their teams. So, um, you have a support system on the other side of this, and whether that's digitally or in person, I think you know, people, people wanna see you succeed and wanna share what they've learned with you. 

I 

Jaime Hunt: think one of the things that I would say to anybody who's listening to this, who, who works in social media or any other part of, of higher ed marketing who's thinking about leaving higher ed marketing or higher ed social media is, I'm not sure there's another.

Feel their industry that has the level of connectivity that we have in higher ed marketing. Um, there is just truly a sense of we're all in this together. I think in higher ed marketing, and I don't imagine that probably like Best Buy and Target, um, social media managers are sharing [00:55:00] ideas, right? Cuz they're in competition with each other or whatever.

but we are, we're all here for each other, I think. And that's what I love about this, this field. And I totally echo allie's Shoot your shot because the answer's no if you don't ask, right? Like, you, you can't, you're not gonna get a yes if you don't ask the questions. So, um, I absolutely love that. Well, Allie, if people have questions, I'm confident that we're gonna see you on the conference circuit, uh, in the next year or two.

But please, um, how can people find you in the meantime? . 

Allie Keunzi: Um, I am such a terrible social media manager because I think there's this expectation that you build your personal brand and for the people who do, I commend you and I applaud you that you do that at work and then you do it in your personal life too.

I am not that advanced yet, but I love LinkedIn and I am on LinkedIn. Um, Allie Kinsey on LinkedIn, A L L I E, which is the only right way to spell, spell Allie, and I'm sorry if you don't. [00:56:00] Kinsey, K U E N Z I. So I would love to connect on LinkedIn or you know, email the good old fashioned email that is off of social media entirely.

My email is ali kinsey ucc.edu and I would love to talk to whoever would like to reach out. And I hope that 

Jaime Hunt: you do, cuz I think Allie has just wonderful insights. And, um, as always, you can find me online on Twitter at Jamie Hunt I m c and like Allie, I have the only correct spelling of Jamie, which is j a i m e h u n t i m C.

You can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm spending a lot more time on LinkedIn, uh, given the current Twitter situation. Um, on both platforms. Please use the hashtag hire ed CMO to continue the conversation. We're on this podcast. I hope to see a lot of people there. And as always, you know, I always had to sign off with like, let's go bust some silos, because we've gotta destroy the things that hold us back from being great.

So thank you so much, Allie. Thank you for listening and have a great rest [00:57:00] of your day everybody.

Zach Busekrus: Hey y'all, Zach Here're from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed C M O with Jaime Hunt. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leading a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.

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