Transitioning Your Career Outside of Academia

Full Transcript

Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO 12

Jaime Hunt: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make, and I'm gonna be a little vulnerable here for a second. In June of 2022, I was feeling incredibly burned out and actually considered leaving higher education. I've known a lot of friends and colleagues across the country that have done that very thing.

And that's why I'm really excited this week to talk to Jody Phelps, she was a higher ed CMO and she has left for a different industry. And she's gonna share both the pros and cons of that as well as how to package yourself. If you've decided that it's time for you to make a transition.

Welcome to confessions of a higher ed CMO, the podcast design for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jamie hunt. And I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and [00:01:00] inspiration with confessions of a higher ed CMO. I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive, into the challenges and joys.

We all face in higher education marketing. After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by using the hashtag higher ed CMO. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at, at Jamie hunt IMC. That's J a I M E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to connect.

So, hi, Jody, welcome to the podcast. 

Jodi Phelps: Hey, Jamie. Great to be here. So 

Jaime Hunt: Jodi is the marketing and communications director for the city of Fayetteville, North Carolina, but we go way back because she joined, um, UNC Pembroke in pembro, North Carolina, uh, around the time that I started at [00:02:00] Winston-Salem state, also in North Carolina.

So we got to know each other through working in the UNC system. And Jody, can you tell us a little bit about. Career journey before you've worked in higher ed and now where you are today? 

Jodi Phelps: Yeah, happy to. So I started my career with my very first job outta college. In higher education. And I worked a couple stints in student affairs and alumni relations loved it, loved them, all loved higher ed, but decided to move into the nonprofit sector for a while.

So I spent a decade or so working in nonprofit management association management and working with social service and anti property programs, which was really incredibly rewarding work of course, but eventually. Started in that course of that work, realizing that the solution to a lot of what we were addressing and what we were dealing with.

Um, and, and what we were trying to build programs around supporting was access to education. And so I started to feel that pull of higher ed come [00:03:00] back, um, and started to look for a way out, um, or, you know, the next path forward, I guess, in, in your career. um, and I, I did a couple stints, uh, even after that as chief operating officer for nonprofit management company and community action program.

Um, and as higher ed always does it eventually will reel you write back in. And about that time, UNC Pembroke was looking for their chief communications and marketing officer, and I just knew that it was the perfect place for me. The second I stepped on campus. It just felt right. Um, and it felt like there was a place that I could have a tremendous impact.

Um, and, and so that's what I did for about six years before transitioning out of higher ed yet again and into local government. 

Jaime Hunt: So Jody, you were at UNC Pembroke at the same time. I was, for the most part, we, we overlapped pretty, pretty, uh, uniformly there, but when we were there, we were there during the start of [00:04:00] COVID and through much of the pandemic together, I have to ask you in your current job, are you having to do as much with COVID and monkeypox and all of those types of communications that we got so much expertise doing?

Yeah, 

Jodi Phelps: not nearly enough. I think, um, luckily for me that when I was shifted out of higher, The height of the COVID pandemic was really starting to ebb. So, um, I think most organizations, particularly here in local government, we had hit that stride and hit that cadence. And it was really operationalized at that point.

And in the last, I guess I've been here seven months, eight months now. Um, we've actually started to come out of some of those COVID precautions. So I'm getting the backside of that communication effort, which, uh, I have to tell you, Jamie is much more enjoyable than. The front end that we dealt with, uh, you know, the start of COVID where you get two days, um, effectively to, to shift.

Thousands of classes and move thousands of students online. That was not a very fun week for any [00:05:00] of us. I don't think. Um, but we, we are starting to give people the happy news, you know, of you can rescinding mask orders and, and reducing some of those restrictions, which, uh, much, much more enjoyable on this side.

So I guess the back end of it, we'll see where monkey packs takes us and all of the other things that lie ahead, who knows , but I feel like in higher, As much as we dealt with in our time when we worked together as peers and colleagues, uh, we, we learned to, to, to ebb and flow with it and, uh, figure it out as it comes.

So we're prepared for just about anything after that adventure. So when I decided to leave higher ed first, let me say that I absolutely loved my time at U N C P and I, and I love higher ed too, that, that doesn't go away. Right. I feel like it gets in your blood in some ways. And you, you will always carry that with you.

Um, but I, I didn't dece. I didn't decide to, to leave higher ed because I didn't like it anymore. For me, it was [00:06:00] really a personal decision, a family decision. Um, I was largely spending a lot of time on the road and hour, two hours a day, just in travel time to get to campus. And, um, you know, I missed that time with my family.

And so life's circumstances come your way and, and they push you and they tell you, you have to. You have to make this choice for the important things in your life that you only get one family and we can't get that time back. So I made that choice to do that was a really tough call. And, and on the outside, on the other side, looking back now, this is something I certainly wouldn't have admitted at the time, but I feel safe in doing that six, seven months down the road that in our.

During COVID we talked a lot about graduate's resiliency and, you know, they suffered or, or, you know, suffered through COVID. They went online, they were bouncing around in, on our campus in particular. We had two major hurricanes that [00:07:00] flooded campus. One of them stranded, a bunch of students on campus, um, kind of hit us by.

but those students that graduated in the last couple of years, they went through all of that. We talked a lot about their resilience and persistence, but one of the things we never really talked about was our. Resilience and persistence and how, how the people like you and I were working 12, 14 hours a day.

We , we were largely behind the scenes. We never turned off. We were always looking for what's next and really that's exhausting. And so I think, you know, looking back, I had gotten to that point too, where I was just, just really tired. Um, and, and. Now I'm safe on the other side that I can say that, but I encourage everyone out there to really take care of your staff and think about that and make sure you're acknowledging, um, their burnout.

And what they're going through and their experiences and take care of them too. Luckily for me, I had some experience outside of higher [00:08:00] ed to lean on when I decided it was time to, to go. And that was really valuable. Um, but I think even if you've only been in higher education in your career, It's important for folks like us, for marketers communications professionals, to understand that we have really transferable portable skills.

It's something that we can do in any industry. Right? Messaging is messaging. Strategy is strategy. The tactics are largely similar. You might be chasing down a different audience, but you, and you certainly do have some different vernacular and different process and things to learn. When you go to another.

But those skills are transferable to any industry, whether it's nonprofit, whether it's corporate America, education, local government, state, government, whatever. And I think, you know, leaning into that for me, I had to lean lean into those skills. I pulled a little bit from my previous experience, but I looked at all the things I did do at U N C P and in crisis communications.

Right. [00:09:00] Such broad exposure on a college campus because it is like a little city, right? They're they are their own self-contained units. Um, and so I was able to, for me, it was a great jump into local government, but I was able to lean into some of those crisis communications experience and really look at.

Um, the areas in which I built solutions and brand building and kind of creating some strategy around that. And I think that made me successful in being able to market myself and package myself to another industry. And I think it's just important that you, you take what you have in your bag of gifts and your skill sets and demonstrate that you're not typecast, even if you've only worked in one industry that, that we come out and say, and.

I can do this because I've got this experience. I know I might have only done it in higher ed, but it's the same skill set that is, you know, here in higher ed that works in this industry too. [00:10:00] I think that's really important to own, own those skills and own who you are and, and trust that you know how to do it.

And I would think 

Jaime Hunt: marketing and communications people could apply the same perspectives and knowledge to packaging their own resumes, you know, how to market so you can market yourself. Hopefully. So, Jody, what are the big differences that you see between. The role that you're in now and working in higher ed, 

Jodi Phelps: the biggest difference is the thousand pound gorilla of enrollment and making a class isn't on the shoulders anymore.

Um, and there's a little part of me that kind of misses that, that hunt, right? The strategy and the putting together and, and making a class every year. There's like a rush that you get as part of what we did, um, and really, really sort of what we loved. But I think, you know, what I've realized on the other side, and this is, this is big.

Is. The, the stakes that we put on ourselves in higher ed were so high and sometimes I think maybe artificially high and that might come [00:11:00] from such having such defined audiences. We knew exactly who our audience was when we were doing the work. We did students, alumni, faculty, staff, you know, parents, all of those different audiences, but they're very broad and trying to craft message.

to really reach every single one of them is very, very hard. So we raised the pressure on ourselves in a way that I'm not so sure we really needed to. And I think sometimes taking a step back. Um, and just looking at, you know, I have, on this side, I look at in local government in particular, my audience is literally everyone.

There is no way to define that an entire city and that persona because it is such a unique and diverse and beautifully wonderful, wonderful city, um, that that's very different from higher ed, putting that pressure on ourselves for perfection and higher ed. Really, I think in some. Turned the dial up on the [00:12:00] stress level.

You know, I remember in one particular instance, um, on my campus, We spent hours laboring over every single word, in a message that we were gonna send out to our constituents and understanding that it was a sensitive topic for a lot of people. It needed to be perfect. And I cannot, I cannot under sell the amount of hours that we spent working on every single word.

And we sent it out. We were happy with it. Everybody's like, yeah, we got this. We nailed this one. As it turns out. Out of the 500 or so words in there, one word, just one that, uh, you know, one small group of people really felt, felt, you know, deeply that that was not the right word. Um, so the whole message failed in that, in that instance, I'm not sure that the whole message failed for every audience, but we pulled that on ourselves as a failure.

Right. And I think in a lot of cases in [00:13:00] higher. we didn't take a step back to say this was successful for this group of people, or this was successful, you know, in, in these ways. Oh yeah. Like we do in other industries or like we do on the other side and there's just this crazy pressure to, to get it right.

For literally everyone that I think you don't have in a lot of other places. 

Jaime Hunt: Hey, all. I hope you're enjoying this episode of confessions of a higher ed CMO. I wanna take just a quick moment to thank my friends at Nector who made this new enrolled podcast possible. Nectar brings affordable communications infrastructure to college campuses.

It's like slack, but for the higher ed student experience. Hector integrates seamlessly with all major LMSs, making it easy for instructors and administrators to build emergent learning communities in all of their classes and groups without the extra work, their focus is on boosting student engagement and reducing instructor stress by building a learning community in every classroom by leveraging familiar technologies [00:14:00] like instant messaging channels, Nector prepares students for the remote yet collaborative work environment of the future.

You can learn more about their platform by heading on over to. That's N E C T I R dot I O. And be sure to tell the team that Jamie sent you their way, Jody. Now that you're kind of shared with us a little bit about the differences and similar. Is the grass greener outside of higher ed or is it just different?

I 

Jodi Phelps: think, um, and I, and I might step in it here a little bit, so I'm sorry to anybody who gets offended by this, but, you know, I think there's a culture in higher ed that really needs to shift and change and look at the campus culture, uh, and really created an equitable and inclusive culture. We talked a lot earlier at the top.

Staff burnout. And you know, a lot of the time the staff on a campus were the ones who were there in the frontline throughout the entire pandemic. Those folks are the most important people to keep the campus running. You know, I [00:15:00] love the faculty and you can't have an institution, an academic institution without faculty, but you also have to realize you can't have it without the staff too.

And you've got to create a place and a culture on a campus that values and uplifts those people. and make sure that they feel like they're invested in every single student's success. Doesn't matter what you do, whether you are on the marketing team, whether you are in financial aid, whether you are cleaning the cafeteria or fixing a computer.

Every single person's role has to be seen as equally important in that process because a campus doesn't run without all those parts and pieces, and we've gotta be willing to give each other a little bit of grace, right. So, um, it's not, nobody's perfect, but giving that grace lets you come to the table and have conversations at a, and you know, as well as probably all of our marketing colleagues, we have been told from time to time on various campuses, that what we do isn't really that.

[00:16:00] Right. It's it's not it doesn't, it's not what, it's not the importance of the institution, but I think we have to acknowledge that it is, and now is the time as we head into the looming enrollment cliff, that what we did on what we do on those campuses can be the difference maker and driving that strategy to move forward and grow an institution and make it sustainable for the future.

It has to rely on marketing strategy because if you're not positioning your university correctly, you're not gonna be successful down the road. So I think the president really has, or the chancellor really has to lead that, um, that effort to put value behind the role of marketing, put value behind the staff that do that work and do.

The work, you know, I was very fortunate that I had a non-traditional chancellor who from day one understood the importance of what we did from brand positioning to marketing. And he was really supportive and, and I don't think I would've been successful [00:17:00] there if I didn't have that support behind me.

And quite frankly, his trust in me to say, I know you can do this and I'm gonna stay outta your lane and let you do it right. And get it, just get it done. I think that was. Really critical. The other thing I think presidents and chancellors can do along those lines is if your CMO is not at the table, if they are not sitting there in the cabinet or the senior leadership discussions, they need to be time now because I, I said it again.

I'll say it again. Your marketing strategy will be the difference maker. Moving forward. There is fierce competition out there and quite frankly, there is not enough traditional age. To go around to all the institutions. So you're gonna have to get creative and thoughtful and innovative about it. And your marketer, your chief marketer, in particular, aside from perhaps your, you know, recruitment folks, ambitions folks.

They are closest to your audiences. And if they're not in the conversation and at the table to [00:18:00] talk about what's next and how do we get there and how do we shape and define that you're gonna miss the boat. And that's gonna be a really critical, really critical step for that. And I think, you know, we talked a little bit about the portability of skills.

You're absolutely right. It and marketing. You know, presidents and chancellors look out for those folks, wrap them up, love on them, make them feel valued because you know, just like me, I. Can take that anywhere and you can take those skills anywhere and they are, um, you know, we talked, we've talked in the past about how higher ed and marketing, it's still sort of in that evolutionary phase.

And a lot of places, it doesn't have a seat at the management table yet. It's sort of been undervalued as. Importance. And I think the salaries also have gone along with that in an undervalued situation, you're starting to see it folks. There's real fierce competition for those people. And, and you're starting to see that come up.

And I really do think that you're gonna start to see a lot of [00:19:00] fierce competition for CMOs, um, in the future. And some folks in the corporate world reaching down and realizing that's a valuable place where we can recruit from. 

Jaime Hunt: Yeah, absolutely. I, I. Presidents and chancellors should definitely be, uh, nervous about that in CMOs, a little, um, bit more conscious of the fact that we need to advocate for our teams to get what they need, both in resources and just general support, um, and making sure too, your CFOs need to understand it in order to fund things and to understand when you come with a $2 million budget, ask for advertis.

That why that is necessary and to understand that it is possible to measure the ROI of that ask and how can we sort of demonstrate our value, but having that conversation at that table at the C-suite table, I think is really, really important that everybody there supports and understands that, and 

Jodi Phelps: not just the presidents and chancellors your colleagues, you know, if you're on the cabinet, you're sitting on the cabinet, they have to listen to you too and, and have that [00:20:00] respect and collegiality and.

That working relationship is so important. Otherwise, you know, it doesn't doesn't necessarily 

Jaime Hunt: work. No. And you still kind of have that, um, mentality on campuses occasionally where faculty feel like, um, marketers are administrative bloat or we're sort of unnecessary or, or we're paid too much. And all of that and trying to prove to.

Trying trying to prove that you have value to those folks. It can be exhausting, but it's also exhausting to be like in a circular firing squad. Like we're all trying to do the same thing, but we're pointing fingers at everybody else for where the problem is or where the issues are. When really, in my opinion, the issue is the, the shrinking investment from the states, um, in higher education, but we're pointing fingers at each other in this sort of ridiculous divisive.

Jodi Phelps: That's right. And it goes back to, to the leadership, creating a culture of equity and inclusion, real equity and inclusion for all individuals on that [00:21:00] campus, faculty, staff, anyone you've gotta be able to come to the table and everybody's gotta understand that their role is important. Right. You know, I've certainly been in those firing squads before and had to withstand the questions of why.

That's not important. It's not smiling people on a brochure. It's just not important. Right. But it is so critical to ensuring that the institution continues to run and that we make a class every year. Right. What happens if you take the marketing team away? What, what then? Where, where is your campus left then?

I think that's the really important question that folks need to be, you know, acknowledging and asking and, and answering is what if I weren't here? Where would we. So Jody, 

Jaime Hunt: what advice would you have for someone who's looking to make the transition out of higher ed? 

Jodi Phelps: So I think I, if you think about it, make sure that you're really doing the research and thinking about, make sure it's right for you.

Make sure it's the right fit. Uh, if you've never been outside of higher ed [00:22:00] do do a lot of due diligence research. Look at all the different industries. I know for me personally, if I had gone into corporate America, I probably would've been swallowed up. Right. and I don't think, uh, my personality would've been happy, not being able to make a difference in, in something or someone's life.

So you've gotta really look in, in, on what you want, what your career goal goals are, what you've accomplished and where the right fit is for you. I, I always find it so tough when people take a job just to take a. Right. Mm-hmm , you know, particularly where we are in our careers. We've gotta take a job that's right.

For us. It's gonna get us to the next phase or give us that challenge that we're craving or, um, you know, push us down the road and, and make it right. Whether it's personally or professionally, and that's. So critically important. Um, if you've never been outside of higher ed, the world on this side can be a culture shock.

So you are warned, just be prepared for that. , um, take your time to know [00:23:00] what you're stepping into, and if you're really ready to roll right on out of campus, then trust your skills. Marketers are marketers, you know exactly what to do. You know, you're driving the message to a different. Perhaps or a different persona or different product, maybe it's a service, but really fundamentally the work we do is the work we do and those skills and tactics, while they adjust a little bit based on the industry, they don't fundamentally change how we do them.

Messaging is messaging strategy is strategy, you know, digital advertising and digital marketing. Doesn't change a whole lot. The audience might change, but the tactics and how you implement those things, certainly. So, um, you know, go back to the, having transferable skills and really leaning into. and knowing, um, what you're capable of and, and where you wanna go.

And I think, you know, for folks in higher ed, if you've spent a lot of time in higher ed I'd advocate that, you know, a nonprofit [00:24:00] or a local government, or even a state government agency is probably a really good transitionary step. Um, again, it goes back to a. Campus operates like a little city. And so a lot of the same things you have your own police department, food restaurants, rules, policies, all of those things that, um, it's like a little, uh, it is a really easy transition for me because I'm applying what I did there in just a larger scale, um, for a much wider audience here.

Okay. 

Jaime Hunt: and I wanna plus one on the, doing your due diligence thing, you, you really need the organization that you're going to, to have values that align with yours, because I think burnout isn't so much about ours worked as it is about work that that feeds your soul or not. And so I think jumping ship ne for, let's say you're offered, you know, twice as much to go, but it's, you know, selling something that you don't.

Good about or in an industry that you actually don't support or working for [00:25:00] leadership that doesn't have the same values that you maybe have around diversity and inclusion or, or other things like that. You know, that that can be a real recipe for a disaster. So I definitely wanna, plus one what Jody is saying about doing your due diligence on it.

I think I have a friend who, um, worked for a tobacco company and he said it just got to the point where he was looking in the mirror and like, I. Keep doing this. Um, I can't, he, he was selling, um, Joe camel. Um, and he's like, this is so obviously trying to recruit kids to smoke. So, um, what am I doing with my life?

Um, and that just wore him down. Like he said, he started gaining weight. He started like. not taking care of his health and, and you, you really have to do that to diligence. That's great advice from 

Jodi Phelps: Jody. Yeah. I think it's so important. You know, your leadership is, is critical and having that one-on-one relationship and that trust with your leader, um, or the, and the people that you work for in your team.[00:26:00] 

That's how you're successful. It just doesn't work without that and ask the questions. Don't be afraid to dig in and really try to get to know people and know what you're stepping into. It's really easy to, to, um, you know, tour somebody around and put on the smiles and have all these wonderful things in these interview questions.

But I promise you, when you're looking at jobs out there, they're likely doing off reference checks on you or calling around you absolutely should do the same too. Call around, find people who maybe have worked there or know of the organization and find out what the culture's like and what the organization's like.

And it'll, I promise you you'll be happy or. 

Jaime Hunt: I have to, to laugh at that because, um, once the person giving me the tour guide or the tour at ODU, which is where I am headed now, um, they found out I like turtles. So they deliberately took me to multiple locations where there were turtles to show me the turtles.

And I was like, it's like, they want me to work here. I'm gonna take this job just for the turtles. But I did do [00:27:00] a, a really, um, Thorough reference check on, on the president, because I just wanted to be sure that I was going for the right reasons and not just the turtles. Um, so Jodi, if people have questions or they wanna connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that.

Jodi Phelps: Sure. You can find me on LinkedIn at Jodi w Phelps, J O D I w P H E L P S. And if anybody wants to hear about our softball volleyball travels, you can find me on Facebook too. At Jody Weber felt was happy to. 

Jaime Hunt: That's awesome. And like always, um, I hope that this just continues this discussion, um, on Twitter.

After this episode airs, I would love to hear from you use the hashtag higher ed CMO. Um, please feel free to follow me, reach out to me. DM me. My Twitter handle is Jamie hunt. I M C that's J A I M E H U N T I M C.com I would love to hear your thoughts on whether you've considered leaving higher ed or, um, what you think you or [00:28:00] others can do to try to keep people from leaving higher ed.

Um, so I hope to see you in that conversation soon. Um, otherwise have a wonderful rest of your day and let's go bust some silos.

Jodi Phelps: Hey, y'all Zach here from enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of confessions of a higher ed CMO with Jamie hunt. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leaving a rating and a review of this show on apple podcasts.

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