Branding, Brain Drain and Budget, Oh My

Full Transcript

Enrollify - Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO - Ep 2 - Jason Simon

[00:00:00] Jaime Hunt': Hi, I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make. I had no idea how far behind higher ed was on MarTech until I read the 2022 Simpson Scarborough CMO survey, total mind blown reading [00:00:15] that survey. So I hope you enjoyed this episode with our guests, Jason Simon, CEO of Cincin scarf.[00:00:30] 

[00:00:40] Jaime Hunt': Welcome to confessions of a higher ed CMO, the podcast designed for higher education [00:00:45] marketers. I'm your host, Jamie hunt. And I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration with confessions of a higher SGMO. I'm defining a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a [00:01:00] guest for a deep dive, into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education market.

[00:01:06] Jaime Hunt': After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter using the hashtag higher ed theater. I would love to see this become like a book [00:01:15] club, but for a podcast, and be sure to follow me on Twitter at Jamie hunt IMC. That's J a I M E H U N T I M C. For more opportunities to connect[00:01:30] 

[00:01:33] Jaime Hunt': I am here with Jason Simon. Who's the CEO of SimpsonScarborough. And he just shared with me that he has 25 years of experience in higher education. And I am so thrilled to have him here today to talk [00:01:45] to us a little bit about the CMOs survey that Simpson Scarborough did. And does an, is it annually every other year.

[00:01:53] Jaime Hunt': So, Jason, tell me a little bit about when you started doing the survey, like what was the impetus to do [00:02:00] the survey? 

[00:02:01] Jason Simon: Well, I think we started in 2014 was the first time that we did it. And we would constantly get questions from our clients around essentially benchmarking information. You know, how much are other [00:02:15] schools spending on this?

[00:02:16] Jason Simon: And you know, how big is the staff at this school? And you know, are these people do they report to the president, do they report to advancement? Do they report to enrollment? What functions do they have underneath them? [00:02:30] And we could only sort of anecdotally be able to say that based on the clients that we were working with, you know, and had recently.

[00:02:37] Jason Simon: And then one thing I think that we were intuiting is it was changing pretty regularly. And so this was started in [00:02:45] 2014, religious as a way to begin to have some of that benchmark data and serve the industry to give a sense of how things are changing. And and the study is really kind of green and taken a life of its own in terms of like the kinds of questions that we [00:03:00] ask.

[00:03:00] Jason Simon: We're in a continual effort to try to get more and more response. And the more and more responses we get, the better it will be for the industry. But I think even today, You know, we get just tremendous feedback on it. And they're constantly hearing [00:03:15] like, every, it feels like at least once or twice a month, we're getting a request for like, can you give me the budget information for how much people spend for advertising?

[00:03:23] Jason Simon: And can you break it down for schools that look like us because somebody is trying to use it to go make a case for something or [00:03:30] another. 

[00:03:31] Jaime Hunt': So I was struck by the survey that there was this big jump in the number of CMOs who are now serving on cabinet. Why do you think more universities have shifted to including the CML at the cabinet level [00:03:45] discussions?

[00:03:45] Jason Simon: Yeah, I think that is a, it's a great finding and like one of those big things that sort of jumped out and changing from 2019 to 2021, which was when we did the last study collected. It went from less than 50% to, to almost [00:04:00] 65% that report directly to their chancellor or their president.

[00:04:04] Jason Simon: And we also saw really significant growth of the number of those positions that are in cabinet roles. Right. So serve on the cabinet. And those things go hand in hand, but [00:04:15] they also aren't always necessarily the same. So, you know, you may have a CMO or a CCO or an ABP that isn't necessarily on the cabinet, but the number of cabinet the number of people that served on the cabinet jumped from less than [00:04:30] 60% to greater, to almost 75% from 2014 to 2021.

[00:04:35] Jason Simon: And so big gross there. I think that, you know, there, there are a few things. Okay. That are contributing to that. Most certainly it's like kind of the environment that we're in, you [00:04:45] know, and I think that because of things and a constant conversation around things like the demographic cliff, the push for additional revenue, the declines in state funding all the questions around the [00:05:00] value of higher ed that and debt and student loan debt that are out there that are a part of the the sort of the public discourse right now, I think pressure from boards more and more folks, you know, coming from a corporate backgrounds that are sitting [00:05:15] on our boards and are really that really know and understand the value of marketing.

[00:05:19] Jason Simon: I think those things have contributed certainly to the rise of the to the rise of the CML and the advancement of that leadership. But I also think, [00:05:30] you know, there, there are a few things that even within the last two years and in COVID and some of the things that have been around race and and inclusion and equity and sort of the constant pendulum of crisis communications [00:05:45] and issues management that all the institutions have dealt with to have moved all of these positions to essentially being, you know, the leadership's right-hand person where, you know, before it may have been academic issues [00:06:00] or financial issues.

[00:06:01] Jason Simon: Now, the thing that the president of the chancellors are hit with just constantly is a need to be able to effectively communicate and be informed to make decisions whether those decisions are day-to-day decisions [00:06:15] or they're really long-term strategic decisions around operating the university.

[00:06:19] Jason Simon: And, you know, marketing, I think has really. Marketing communications has really inserted itself in a really valued way there. I think the other thing that it's [00:06:30] important to add. You know, there also have been a lot of really wonderful professionals who are busting their butt and making their voice heard and have been doing so for a really long [00:06:45] time that are finally being listened to you know, they're the senior, most people on their campuses, or, you know, they're coming with a wealth of experience and proven track record.

[00:06:56] Jason Simon: And you know, those people have a big voice in our [00:07:00] industry. Now they're not just seen as, you know, the folks who know how to communicate or write a press release or deal with the media or, you know, any number of those things. They really are seen as being up strategic value. [00:07:15] 

[00:07:15] Jaime Hunt': And I didn't warn you that I used to be a journalist, so I will do side quests on these questions just to warn you a little bit about that.

[00:07:22] Jaime Hunt': But one of the things that you mentioned was this idea of the COVID and the racial reckoning and all of these sort of crisis [00:07:30] communications, bringing the CMO to the forefront in the mind of presidents and chancellors. Do you think that is something, would we be at this point, if that hadn't happened, would we be positioned to be at this leadership table, or we just have seen these [00:07:45] little small incremental gains in the number of us at the leadership.

[00:07:50] Jaime Hunt': I 

[00:07:50] Jason Simon: I think that we would have wound up here. I think that is the trajectory that we have seen happening in the industry. And I think the data and the CMOs study [00:08:00] bears that out, but I think the COVID and the issues around social justice and issues management and crisis communications have accelerated it and it happened faster.

[00:08:13] Jason Simon: And and it [00:08:15] broke down some barriers and silos that may have existed before in, in positive ways. Some of those are that substantive issues are actually now being discussed [00:08:30] with the right people in the room. Right. And so when we talk about issues of inclusion, you know, it's not like all the decisions are being made over here.

[00:08:38] Jason Simon: And then we're talking about how to create. It's a little bit more where, you know, the marketing communications [00:08:45] professionals are asking tough questions. Like, what are our values? What are we standing for? And let's figure that out before we end determine what we're doing of substance before we make decisions about how we're communicating about it.

[00:08:59] Jason Simon: [00:09:00] Right. I think that council has been really valued and important. But I think that, you know, that is one of the challenges that previously I think was a struggle on colleges and university effort colleges and universities was [00:09:15] like this pendulum between like, are we a marketing shot or are we a communications and media shop?

[00:09:23] Jason Simon: And you know, I see it all the time. In the way that the CMO positions job [00:09:30] descriptions and the search firms are writing the jobs and they tend to be, you know, they either lean one way or another, or even worse. They're assuming that like somebody can do all of those things and that they're an expert in [00:09:45] all of those things.

[00:09:46] Jason Simon: And I think that's the rare person who has that level of expertise and you know, so I think that COVID, and certainly the need to be better communicators has accelerated it. But I think we also are becoming more professional [00:10:00] just in general. 

[00:10:02] Jaime Hunt': Yeah. I think there's a lot of value to having the CMO, ask some of those tough questions.

[00:10:06] Jaime Hunt': I see us as in a way on Budsman for our. Audiences like we, we can see those conversations happening in real time [00:10:15] on social media. And when COVID first hit, I remember sorta everybody turning to me and saying, what are people saying, okay, what do we need to say? And Jamie, tell us what to do.

[00:10:25] Jaime Hunt': Kind of, kind of attitude. And this was at my previous institution, but it was [00:10:30] definitely a communications has entered the building and we'll be in the building for we're going on two years now of carrying that water for the institution. Yeah. And 

[00:10:41] Jason Simon: I think that you know, you're bringing up such a good point.

[00:10:43] Jason Simon: I think the other thing that [00:10:45] has contributed to both the both marketing communications being at the seat, but also, you know, the importance and the demand that issues management and crisis communications has on an institution [00:11:00] has been. The prevalence and the importance of social media and digital.

[00:11:06] Jason Simon: I mean, everyone has a voice now. Everything deserves at least some level of attention and awareness and measurement to understand if it's [00:11:15] truly an issue or it's not an issue and awareness, right? Like, you know, we need to know the things that are happening within our community. And certainly, you know, social listening and other things that we're doing from a digital standpoint, allow us to be able to understand that and quantify it [00:11:30] in some way.

[00:11:30] Jason Simon: But also, you know, provides a huge channel. I think that one of the things that has been such a huge opportunity for universities for a really long period is we have such a, we have such a large community in an engaged community of stakeholders. That are [00:11:45] listening and that care about the institution.

[00:11:47] Jason Simon: And we also have so many stories from which the town, you know, I mean, I think it, you know, I think one of the fun things about working in higher ed is you can stumble into any building and find a tremendous [00:12:00] story. You know, if you run into five people, you'll find at least one great story, maybe four or five, right.

[00:12:07] Jason Simon: And the power now that we have to be able to tell those stories through our communities, through our own channels as opposed to worrying [00:12:15] about, you know, what's the email that we're going to get, or what's the phone call that we're going to get that we have to respond to, or, you know, this person's pet project or this board member's pet.

[00:12:25] Jason Simon: Like we no longer have to deal with the same types of things. Not that we don't [00:12:30] deal with those things, but we can take the other kinds of things and look for opportunity there. And I think that, you know, you can going back to your first question and that's been one of those things that also has really contributed to the professionalism and the growth of the industry is a [00:12:45] recognition of that.

[00:12:45] Jaime Hunt': I've been working in higher ed for almost 18 years now. And I've seen such a shift in this mentality of more like a publications office where people would show up with some copy and some pictures and say, make me a brochure to seeing marketing [00:13:00] as a strategic partner and seeing that evolution isn't consistent across all institutions, right?

[00:13:05] Jaime Hunt': There's still institutions, I think, in that publications office mindset. And I think if that's one thing that I. I can [00:13:15] hope to try to help people change is that mentality so that CMOs are seen as strategic partners, which sort of gets me to my next question is why do you think that CMOs should serve on the presidential cabinet?

[00:13:28] Jaime Hunt': Or what value do they [00:13:30] bring to the leadership table? 

[00:13:32] Jason Simon: Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that one thing that our study this year in particular did a really great job of of laying out was the benefit to an institution [00:13:45] by having a strategic marketer in these lead roles. And, you know, some of them were just in the reporting of what those folks were actually involved in.

[00:13:55] Jason Simon: So, you know, CMOs that were on the cabinet were 130, [00:14:00] 2% more likely compared to others to be involved in pricing discussions. Right or you know, they were nearly twice as likely to have things like measures in place to measure brand strength, right? [00:14:15] Real strategic functions. They were more likely to have done brand research in the last three years.

[00:14:20] Jason Simon: You know, they were involved in retention issues and they were involved in fundraising issues and enrollment issues much more so than those who [00:14:30] reported that they were in. And, you know, it's funny, I think that there were like some fundamental truths for higher ed marketing that I think we, you know, it's almost like this it's like the burden that we all carry around or we'd have to accept that it's okay.

[00:14:42] Jason Simon: It's just who we are. One of them is that there's still a lot of [00:14:45] people on campuses that think of you as Kinko's, you know, another is that you're very VE that we're very siloed and decentral. Another is that we don't have enough people. And we certainly don't have enough budget. And, you know, we have to spend a lot of time doing [00:15:00] convincing about the value of marketing and branding.

[00:15:03] Jason Simon: And then when you've been in the industry long enough, I think you get used to hearing all of those kinds of things. And, you know, my view on that, especially in the last 10 years or so, [00:15:15] and maybe it's just, you know, becoming a sour puss, but my view on that is like, those are the realities. So what are we doing about it?

[00:15:21] Jason Simon: You know? And that, that that burden of like needing to educate others. I mean, that's not relegated to higher ed. I mean, there's [00:15:30] somebody who works in tech and they're the CMO they're constantly educating that engineers and the product people. And they're having to negotiate with sales on which things are being, you know, which things are being highlighted.

[00:15:44] Jason Simon: Trying to [00:15:45] fend them off from just asking for a sales sheet or a landing page or, you know, whatever else it might be. And you know, we say those things in higher ed and we think that we're isolated and that we're alone but something that is just that's what marketing is, that's what marketing [00:16:00] and branding and communications are.

[00:16:01] Jason Simon: I mean, they're just, you know, they're parts of big organizations and I think we have to accept those realities too. 

[00:16:07] Jaime Hunt': So what you're saying is the grass isn't going to be greener on the other side of the fence. If we jumped ship from a higher ed. 

[00:16:13] Jason Simon: Well, I think the [00:16:15] challenges are the same you know, the pay may be a little bit better.

[00:16:19] Jason Simon: But you might be involved in working on something that you're not, you don't care as much about. 

[00:16:25] Jaime Hunt': Yeah, definitely. So what benefits do you, let me start [00:16:30] that question over, but how do you think. What advice do you have for Marcom offices that are still in that Kinko's mentality and wanting to move into a more strategic approach and to being seen as a strategic function, what advice do you have [00:16:45] for those CMOs who may not even have the title CMO, but they're, that's what they are.

[00:16:50] Jaime Hunt': How can they make that transition on their campuses? 

[00:16:53] Jason Simon: Yeah, I think, well, I mean, you know, and not to toot our own horn, but the CMS study is intended to be a [00:17:00] resource, right. And intended to be something that CMOs can share with their presidents and chancellors and boards to advocate for, and make a case for the value and the benefit of the strategic role.

[00:17:12] Jason Simon: And so, you know, it is there. And we [00:17:15] welcome people reaching out to us to ask for data they're asked for help or ask support on things to do in ways that they can make that case with their leaders. You know, Terry Flannery, who I know you've talked to before and obviously it's you know, a Sage or the [00:17:30] goat, or however we want to talk about it wrote the book on how to market a university you know, really pushes and and certainly we have seen this over the years, the value of being the person who is bringing the data, the [00:17:45] research, the understanding of what truly is our position, what people think about us where do we rate and stack up on certain things that we want to be known for or associated with from a messaging [00:18:00] standpoint?

[00:18:00] Jason Simon: How do we rate against competition? I mean, are love them or hate them. Faculty and administrators in colleges and universities are motivated and moved by. And if you can [00:18:15] support it's the nature of what it means to be an academic, right. Is to question until we can poke enough holes in it that we are sure.

[00:18:24] Jason Simon: And one of the big things is if you can match your anecdote and those [00:18:30] feelings with real data that you're bringing to the table, then you really can make a strong case for the things that you want to do. And so that I feel like is a place to start. [00:18:45] And one of those things that can be really critical in sort of making sure that you're being set up as a strategic partner I think there's some other areas too.

[00:18:55] Jason Simon: I, you know, I think institutions have and marketing leaders have done them [00:19:00] selves a bit of a disservice by focusing so much on being the brand police and you know, thinking about things from an identity and a creative only lens and putting guidelines around people, as opposed to [00:19:15] thinking about how we lead and support and encourage people towards some element of a shared voice that that then allows them to do their own to do their own things that they need to be able to do in their various [00:19:30] areas.

[00:19:31] Jason Simon: Our organizations are set up. Most of them are set up as being you know, siloed from a budgeting standpoint too. And so the incentive is there to happen, to make things happen in a siloed nature, right? For those certain [00:19:45] areas, the colleges, whether we're talking about enrollment or fundraising or whatever it might be, you know, there is that incentive and you need to not police, but you need to be a champion for the brand.

[00:19:55] Jason Simon: And I think that's a really big and important, just a philosophical [00:20:00] way that, that people need to approach the challenge to. 

[00:20:04] Jaime Hunt': Yeah that's really some good insights there. Just shifting gears a little bit. And in the survey, I was struck by the statistic that 91% of lead marketers are also responsible for crisis [00:20:15] communications.

[00:20:15] Jaime Hunt': And that has been the case for me in my role as, as well. And one of the ways that I describe this to people is that I feel sometimes like I have the football and I'm heading down the field with it. And [00:20:30] then a crisis crops up and I had to set the football down or hand the football to someone else go deal with that crisis and then come back and like, well, who has the football?

[00:20:39] Jaime Hunt': Where's the football what's going on with the football? And my current thinking on 

[00:20:44] Jason Simon: three [00:20:45] footballs on the field, right? 

[00:20:46] Jaime Hunt': Why is the football now a soccer ball? My current thought around solving that is to actually create a chief of staff position who can continue to run with that ball. And I can catch up with them later.

[00:20:58] Jaime Hunt': Like I can. [00:21:00] Run with it. But what advice would you have for CMOs who are balancing the demands of the crisis that you have no timing, no idea of the timing on, you know, there could be a tuberculosis [00:21:15] outbreak or a fire on campus, or there's just a million things that can go wrong on a college campus, but balancing those things well, maintaining forward momentum on things like marketing and branding.

[00:21:26] Jason Simon: Yeah. I think that I think that, I mean, it's such an [00:21:30] important point and I know it's such a challenge for leaders right now. In fact, I remember we did a session with higher ed CMOs and leaders at the AMA last November. And I gave a session that was sort of the future CMA. [00:21:45] And I remember that one of the questions that I got in a really earnest way was.

[00:21:50] Jason Simon: How can I do all of these things and deal with the day-to-day crises that are constantly in front of me? And I think the answer to that is you can't [00:22:00] and there has to be a solution in a solve for dealing with those things. And there also needs to be a recognition that crisis communications and issues management are not separated from brand and marketing, because if you have a really bad [00:22:15] crisis and you're not doing institutional reputation management and issues management, proactively, those are the things that will sync to your brand and sync your leaders and sync your, you know, the CMOs and the [00:22:30] CCOs right along with them.

[00:22:31] Jason Simon: And so they can't be thought about independently on, of of themselves. And that's why I think things like, you know, things like regular research, things like social listening, those kinds of tools. Are really critical because [00:22:45] they're allowing you to get ahead of some of those things, you know, and I think just as importantly, and we have really good friends, whether it's the people at blue moon strategies or the people at TVP, you know, and that do reputation management issues management, and putting a [00:23:00] process in place to be able to deal with those things, not crisis response, not what happens when we have a shooter, you know, which we also have to have plans for those.

[00:23:08] Jason Simon: But we used to think about that as the only sort of issues management piece, you know, we've got to work these things that are, you [00:23:15] know, that are coming, that we know are going to be big issues because of going back to what I said earlier, like, everybody's got a voice now everyone's got a platform, you've got an opportunity to raise that up.

[00:23:24] Jason Simon: You know, you can't talk about yourself from a brand standpoint, standing up for certain things, doing [00:23:30] certain things, you know, having this community. And then at the same time, you've got this other things percolating over here, that's pulling away from it. So. You know, it's such a challenge. I think that I think it, it begins with some real [00:23:45] form of recognition and acceptance of that from the leaders and some level of decision around where and how they want to spend their time and then putting up support to those other areas.

[00:23:57] Jason Simon: And so, you know, if you're [00:24:00] a a CCO CMO VP that has a leaning towards PR communications issues management, you better make sure that you have a great strategic marketing partner. That's sitting right there with [00:24:15] you and vice versa, right? Because the things really work together and you have to keep your ball, your eye on both of those balls that are, you know, that are moving simultaneously.

[00:24:27] Jason Simon: Okay. They're related to each other, you know, and so it [00:24:30] comes back to some things that we found in the study, you know, I think, you know, sadly, I mean, almost 80% of the respondents said that they don't have enough staff. And I think, you know, at the same time from our, from some of our recent work that we've done, we did a [00:24:45] salary and professional development study.

[00:24:46] Jason Simon: You know, there's almost 50% of people that are saying that they're going to leave higher ed in the next six months. It is. And it's across all kinds of positions, you know, and they're frustrated with[00:25:00] with the workplace culture. Certainly some of it relates to, you know, remote, non remote employees.

[00:25:06] Jason Simon: But they also are frustrated that they can't work on the things that they want to because it is a constant crisis or that there's no decision-making to be able to, you [00:25:15] know, affectively make fast decisions on how to handle. Right. And so, I think a recognition of that and trying to make sure that kind of work doesn't affect already really small and pressed [00:25:30] teams is just, it's a big part of the challenge.

[00:25:32] Jason Simon: But again, you know, Jamie, these are not issues that are relegated just to higher up, right? I mean, all nonprofits face this corporate entities face it, as soon as their [00:25:45] brand takes a hit on any kind of social issue, which everyone is now being pulled into and held accountable for what they do. And they say, and their actions on all of those things.

[00:25:57] Jason Simon: Quite frankly, I don't think that's a bad thing either. And[00:26:00] you know, certainly for, from like for nonprofits and other large public organizations, like this is a challenge that everyone is dealing with right now, it's a reality of. The marketing communications world. And I think that this, like, you know, you probably [00:26:15] know this, I haven't been in this industry for a long time.

[00:26:17] Jason Simon: There's like, all right, what's going to, you know, what's the fight going to be? Is it going to be communications and marketing? Is it gonna be marketing communications? You know, are we gonna call ourselves strategic communications? All right. Whatever, [00:26:30] you know, like, you know, are we talking about like the definition of PR and reputation or are we talking about brand?

[00:26:38] Jason Simon: Like, it doesn't matter anymore. It's all together. You know, it really is all together. And we just have to figure out how to deal with it. [00:26:45] 

[00:26:45] Jaime Hunt': Yeah, absolutely. One of the things you just mentioned makes me think about the challenges that we have with labor shortages and. The issues that come around that and just anecdotally, and in November, 2020, I [00:27:00] had over 200 applications for our senior director of marketing position and my director of digital marketing position that I've recently posted has three very smaller pools very much smaller pools.

[00:27:11] Jaime Hunt': And there's still qualified people [00:27:15] applying, but not the volumes of people. And in some ways that's a good thing. Cause 200 resumes to find that there's actually only 12 qualified people in that pile is a lot. But what do you think we need to do? Do we need to have better salaries, better work conditions?

[00:27:29] Jaime Hunt': [00:27:30] Or should we be starting to think about shifting to a more MarTech approach or bringing in technologies that can help us be successful rather than people? The. Talked a little bit about how corporate invest way [00:27:45] more in MarTech and higher ed invest more in people. And what do you think is the solution to all of this?

[00:27:51] Jason Simon: Yeah, I mean, let me talk about it from a people standpoint first. And then we can talk about MarTech. Cause I think that they're related, but not the same [00:28:00] issues. I do think that we are certainly going through a major talent drain right now and people leaving the industry more than 55% of the people in our most recent survey said that they had [00:28:15] explored, applied, interviewed, or received a job offer outside of higher ed and nearly 60% of those people said that they didn't plan to be in higher ed in the next six months.

[00:28:26] Jason Simon: That's a staggering number, you know, and it's affecting our [00:28:30] most talented and most in demand. Kinds of roles. I mean, there's a reason why you had to, besides the timing, there's also a reason why you had a 200 applicants for a general marketing role versus three applicants [00:28:45] for a digital marketing role.

[00:28:46] Jason Simon: It's because those digital people are in serious demand across every single industry that we're looking for. The other thing that we that we as an agency I think are really benefiting from we at substance Scarborough. I mean, [00:29:00] you know, for us, we've had tremendous growth in the last two, two and a half, three years.

[00:29:04] Jason Simon: And we have a ton of people from universities that are regularly reaching out to us because they love working in higher ed. They care [00:29:15] about the industry. They're tired of the bureaucracy that they're in the inability to be able to have impact at a deep way. And they're frustrated by things like salary or remote or, you know, but those [00:29:30] things feel like they're alone.

[00:29:31] Jason Simon: Beneath, what they really get excited about is like a team that has an opportunity to work with all kinds of different schools and solve all kinds of different problems, right. As opposed to working inside and working on the [00:29:45] same problem over and over and over and over again. And so, you know, that's one of the things I think from a current talent standpoint that has to be addressed.

[00:29:56] Jason Simon: I also think to get to the second [00:30:00] point that you made, you know, again, before we even talk about MarTech, there's some things that the industry and the partners that serve the industry also need to do and be cognizant of agencies and partners. And I've said this almost every place that I've [00:30:15] spoken at in the last two years, we need to do better in working with our clients.

[00:30:20] Jason Simon: There are way too many point solutions for single thing. And institutions are hiring for that single thing. And then moving on to another partner that they [00:30:30] don't have any level of institutional knowledge they're having to rebuild trust. They're recreating, you know, re redoing all of the discovery steps and, you know, all kinds of different they're spending more money than they need to.

[00:30:44] Jason Simon: And and [00:30:45] then, you know, from a paid media standpoint and from a contracting standpoint, primarily around enrollment and performance marketing, there's way too much that is behind gates that is not shared with clients and [00:31:00] should be. And quite honestly, I don't understand how the institutions are standing for it.

[00:31:06] Jason Simon: I really don't. I mean, these contracts need to be broken down. You need to know how much you're paying per lead. And there shouldn't be any, you shouldn't have to pay [00:31:15] multiple vendors to get the same. And that's what every school is doing. You're wasting so much money and then you're competing against yourself for search terms and, you know, everything else.

[00:31:25] Jason Simon: I mean, there's so much waste that is happening from a budgeting [00:31:30] standpoint, because we're not effectively like managing ourselves and holding the partners that work in the industry accountable and the partners aren't going deep enough and comprehensively. And now with those schools, I think, you know, that is one of the [00:31:45] things that we've recognized at SimpsonScarborough.

[00:31:47] Jason Simon: And we selfishly wanted to do, because we wanted our relationships with our clients to go deeper. We knew we had to do more than either just in order to serve our clients and to serve the agency better. [00:32:00] And, you know, I think that all of those things are really contributing to the challenges from a staffing and personnel standpoint.

[00:32:09] Jason Simon: And the last point I'll make just quickly is because it has to be. You [00:32:15] know, you, we have our presidents and chancellors and now serving less than five years and they're moving on to another place. You know, every study for corporate CMOs shows that the average tenure of a [00:32:30] CMO now is less than three years.

[00:32:32] Jason Simon: I have no idea exactly what it is within higher ed. That probably is something that we ought to look at in the future. But how do you build a program? How do you build a brand when you're having that kind of turnover in [00:32:45] those two positions? You know, and meanwhile, our strategic plans are like ten-year plans.

[00:32:50] Jason Simon: I mean, come on, you know, like it just and we're trying to pin our marketing plans to these strategic plans and the people are leaving the goals. Aren't, well-defined, you know, the [00:33:00] outcomes, there's the outcomes and the budgets aren't aligned to what those goals are. It's a real, it's a real mess. And from a strategic standpoint that needs to.

[00:33:09] Jason Simon: Get better. And there's no amount of budget, our MarTech infrastructure and investment. That's [00:33:15] going to fix those fundamental things 

[00:33:18] Jaime Hunt': that is such a fascinating place to take this conversation. And I am so glad you brought that up because I think when you get a new leader in whether it's in the [00:33:30] COC or the CEO seat, there's often an entirely new vision and an, and a desire to scrap what was in place before you to create your legacy.

[00:33:40] Jaime Hunt': And I think. It's anecdotal, but it seems like a lot of times the new CEO [00:33:45] CMO comes in and it's like, we're going to redo everything. When I was at my last institution, they hadn't refreshed their logo since the nineties that we spent a ton of effort on, they had no real documented visual identity.

[00:33:57] Jaime Hunt': They had no brand platform for at least a [00:34:00] decade. So I worked to put all of that in place. And when I left the person who came in, wanted to do a rebrand and I'm like, we just did this. And we know it works. They are our percentage of students on the SERP. Is it the [00:34:15] SERP survey that said we were, their first choice, went from 41% to 62%.

[00:34:20] Jaime Hunt': In four years, it was, we were getting record applications and meeting our class and all of that. There was no reason to change, but it was like, well, I'm the new CMO. So I have to scrap [00:34:30] what happened before me and then the teams all sort of scrambling around. Wait, we're changing direction again. And like, we ha I think what can be done when you're a new CMO?

[00:34:43] Jaime Hunt': What should you do? Should you jump [00:34:45] in, what's the timing that you should be looking at for those kinds of things? 

[00:34:48] Jason Simon: It's funny. I mean, I think that one of the things that we would tell you from like a market research standpoint is just about the time that people internally are sick of it is maybe about the time that anybody [00:35:00] externally has even it's crossed their radar.

[00:35:03] Jason Simon: And you know, anecdotally, I can tell you that one of my favorite brands, and I think they do a fabulous job also happens to be my Alma mater. And we have, I knew you were going to say 

[00:35:14] Jaime Hunt': NC, [00:35:15] state's the best. 

[00:35:16] Jason Simon: They, I mean, their brand work has been really great. And they have stuck to you know, their strategy and built a position around the thinking do.

[00:35:27] Jason Simon: And, you know, it was interesting when we began working [00:35:30] with them seven years ago or so it was just as their capital campaign was beginning to launch in. And I don't think this will embarrass or make anybody angry that I'm sharing this. You know, we came in there and there was new leadership from advancement.[00:35:45] 

[00:35:45] Jason Simon: And there was a chancellor and some marketing leadership that had been there a few years. And I think everyone was sort of thinking like this thinking do thing it's been around a little while, like maybe it's time to do something new, especially for this campaign. And, you [00:36:00] know, it's a big and important time.

[00:36:02] Jason Simon: And one of the things that we found when we were doing our market research was like one, not nobody really even knew, think and do. And then once you told them what you told alums and donors and current [00:36:15] students and all of their various stakeholders, you know, this is what they can do is this is what it means.

[00:36:21] Jason Simon: They were like, Oh, well, that reflects my current experience or that reflects what my experience, it was like when I went to school year 25 [00:36:30] years ago, or this is what I think NC state should be about in the future. And so we quickly sort of said like, and also then we sort of, you know, we tested some names and some creative things, and it turned out that people that were more likely to [00:36:45] give, like, to think and do even more than other people that were less likely to get.

[00:36:49] Jason Simon: Right. So we're even more inclined to to do those kinds of things, really like thinking do. And so our strategy around the campaign name was like build off [00:37:00] of thinking do, and, you know, because then what you're going to do is build even greater equity in this thing that already has some equity. And I think that, you know, if you talk to anybody at NC state.

[00:37:11] Jason Simon: They would tell you that from a brand standpoint, thinking do is the [00:37:15] best thing and the best asset that they would have, and they would be silly to try something new. I think what they are dealing with now is like, how can we express this and brings and breathed some new life into this in a way that has a little bit more dynamism than [00:37:30] before, but it's not abandoning previous strategies.

[00:37:32] Jason Simon: I think we do that way, way too often. And you know, again, going back to my point before, like if you're going to hire multiple agencies, everybody wants to come in and put their little imprint on it. Right. Like, you know, oh, well this works great, but it doesn't [00:37:45] work for enrollment or, you know, this works great, but donors aren't going to like this.

[00:37:50] Jason Simon: There's a lot of ego, sometimes there's tree, but there was a lot of, not in those kinds of comments. And I think, you know, sometimes it's just [00:38:00] whether it's the CMO or it's an outside partner. Like somebody needs to say that I wouldn't be willing to say that and be able to back it up with some element of.

[00:38:09] Jaime Hunt': Yeah, I think that, that makes me think about sort of the, my college. Every college is special, but [00:38:15] mine is the specialist. Like the, well, my audience is just different from every other of the audiences that the university has. It's like, they're all talking 

[00:38:23] Jason Simon: about. And I saw your, I saw Isilon social, you know, at some point in the last couple of weeks here, analogy that, you know, [00:38:30] if if the brand is an ice cream Sunday, you know, we can put the, we can put the topping on for your college, but you can't create a pizza.

[00:38:38] Jason Simon: And I think that, I think that is such a smart and wise analogy and such great advice in a really good [00:38:45] way to talk to the importance of building something up, you know, and it takes time to build brands. And one of the things that I think that colleges and universities fail to do and fail to recognize is the time it takes.

[00:38:57] Jason Simon: And the only shortcuts around that time [00:39:00] are either a boatload of. That you're going to, you're going to see it in the market and really begin to do something different. Or and this is an area that I think more and more, I have been pleased with [00:39:15] that the president and the board and the chancellor are going to be involved and help clear the way for certain amounts of decision making to happen in a timely way, and to be able to be more decisive.

[00:39:26] Jason Simon: Right. And, you know, it's got it. There has to be [00:39:30] some combination of those things in order to be able to do effective marketing work. 

[00:39:35] Jaime Hunt': Yeah, absolutely. And I know in higher ed, we're not likely to get those boatloads of money. I feel really fortunate that I have been able to get a lot of additional [00:39:45] resources, but the average institution, I don't think is in that place right now, particularly those that are suffering enrollment losses or NTR losses because of the pandemic.

[00:39:55] Jaime Hunt': But you just make a really good point about how things [00:40:00] beyond money could help the path for CMOs in driving the brand forward. Speaking of things that could drive the brand forward, let's talk a little bit about MarTech. So why do you think higher ed is so different from the corporate world [00:40:15] in the MarTech space and what will it take to shift our culture?

[00:40:18] Jaime Hunt': Or should we shift that culture? 

[00:40:21] Jason Simon: Yeah, so we this became a big part of our study, the CMOs study, and then we also did. A digital and a MarTech study this year, too. We [00:40:30] keep adding on these little additional industry studies to be able to continue to support the community. And it was interesting.

[00:40:36] Jason Simon: We took like, you know, we asked CMOs how they spend their budgets and how their budgets are allocated. And in [00:40:45] higher ed about 3% of the marketing budget went to marketing, MarTech marketing technology. Gartner did a study on corporate of corporate CMOs and corporate brands on their marketing budgets and corporate [00:41:00] CMOs spend about 26% of their budget on MarTech.

[00:41:03] Jason Simon: Right. And we already can acknowledge that their budgets are much bigger than you can discount that by saying like, well, they have bigger budgets to do with so larger percentage of their budget can go towards that because they already [00:41:15] have bigger teams or whatever. But we are talking about percentages.

[00:41:17] Jason Simon: And you know, I think that, that, that is certainly reflectives. Corporations spend higher ed about eight to one in MarTech investments. And for every hundred dollars that higher invest in [00:41:30] MarTech corporate brands spend about $3,200. Right. Just to give you a sense. And so I don't think, I think that the question [00:41:45] of should we be investing in MarTech solutions or hiring people is not the right question to be asking.

[00:41:53] Jason Simon: And it's not a fair or even comparison because [00:42:00] if your budgets are limited, you have to be investing in marketing technology. It's going to be the thing that allows a very small team. To be able to scale and spend your time in ways that are effective. [00:42:15] And I think that it also begins to get to ways that, you know, going back to the earlier part of our conversation, you can prove the effectiveness of your work.

[00:42:25] Jason Simon: You can measure ROI, you can do a little bit more direct digital marketing. You can [00:42:30] make your advertising investment more effective and you can make your digital more effective. And so though the investment that comes from MarTech, whether we're talking about software or we're talking about technology I think we leave a lot of [00:42:45] dollars on the table with what we do spend by one.

[00:42:49] Jason Simon: They're not enterprise solutions. You know, they wind up being purchased by a certain area not supported centrally, and then [00:43:00] teams are trained. Teams that are there and intended to be able to support. And I think that probably the biggest difference is, you know, at the agency level and at the corporate level for corporate marketing [00:43:15] teams, what they have seen is an increase essentially in technologists, right?

[00:43:19] Jason Simon: Where, you know, like really thinking about marketing technology, doing being able to implement those various tools, having expertise in those tools, being committed to a [00:43:30] certain small subset of those and really blowing them out and hiring specialists, you know, and all too often we see schools that, you know, they purchase something, whether you're talking about something like slate as a CRM, or you're talking about a CMS purchase, or you're thinking, talking about some kind of [00:43:45] personalization engine, you know, they purchase those things and they build up a lot of expertise, right?

[00:43:52] Jason Simon: Like the slate captain. I can't tell you how many schools right now we're dealing with. You know, the loss of staff, they just lost their slate captain, [00:44:00] I guess what nobody else on campus knows how to use it. And then you're just stuck and then you're stuck. Then you have this you purchased some piece of technology and this isn't meant to pick on slate in any way.

[00:44:11] Jason Simon: Cause I think it's a great product and it's helped advance higher ed and certainly [00:44:15] has helped enrollment, you know, but you're left with this product that you have a 10 year contract on and no person and you can't recruit somebody because the only people that know how to use it are people at other schools.

[00:44:25] Jason Simon: Right. Right. And like you might be in a market that's really unaffordable for those people to live in. [00:44:30] Right. And there's all kinds of challenges that are going on there. If we're not thinking about the training and the, you know, the the ability to be able to spread the technology across a user base at a campus, then man, we're really lining up ourselves for failure right off the bat.[00:44:45] 

[00:44:45] Jason Simon: And, you know, I think the thing that has conversely kind of. At the same moment has been the it departments had finally sort of realized like, Hey, we're happy to be in this place over here. You know, maintaining this certain set of services primarily to support, [00:45:00] you know, our user base on campus, but we're not here to manage the website, manage users on website, manage the CRM system.

[00:45:08] Jason Simon: Like they got to keep the infrastructure for the network up and running right. And cybersecurity and [00:45:15] the other kinds of things. And so more and more of those kinds of things have got to, there's got to be a combination of like really good training, really centralized support staff and good strong relationships with people that you're outside outsourcing it to there's so [00:45:30] many opportunities I think with MarTech and, you know, part of the challenge has been that it's been everybody in nobody.

[00:45:38] Jason Simon: Role and responsibility and it departments. I think we finally, you know, the marketing [00:45:45] communications folks are finally partnering really well with it departments, and there's a clear understanding of what it needs to help them support it. And it really is, you know, the network, the infrastructure, the security of the institution, and it's not [00:46:00] one-off systems.

[00:46:01] Jason Simon: You know, and the challenge is that when we think about MarTech, those systems are generally systems that need to cross multiple divisions and areas. And so, you know, whether we're talking about something like a CRM, or we're talking about a CMS for [00:46:15] web publishing, or, you know, we're talking about some other kind of analytics tool or any number of those things, you know, it is the responsibility of the central marketing team.

[00:46:24] Jason Simon: And, you know, one of the challenges is there are very few, if any. [00:46:30] I can think of one client of ours that has a person or multiple people who are responsible for marketing, technology, marketing, operations, training, and support for multiple campus stakeholders. And so, you know, we placed all of our [00:46:45] effort in these like, you know, single champions of a MarTech solution.

[00:46:49] Jason Simon: And then, you know, we lose those people or we lose their knowledge or they get tired of it, or, you know, what or something new comes out that might be a little bit better. We can't stay on top of [00:47:00] it. And so it's inherently such a challenge, but that doesn't make it one of those things that you can just discount.

[00:47:07] Jason Simon: I think that, you know, marketing technology and the possibility that it provides for marketing teams is one of those things [00:47:15] that folks need to be advocating for where they were talking about budgets or resources or time and attention of how they spend their. It's just as critical as any of the other pieces and in fact, maybe even more critical and provide so much opportunity.[00:47:30] 

[00:47:30] Jaime Hunt': Yeah. I think those are the positions, in my opinion, that are perfect for fully remote work. That's how we got our director of enrollment marketing technologies. He is one of a handful of people in the country with experience [00:47:45] in exactly the software that we have on our campus. And he lives in Idaho.

[00:47:50] Jaime Hunt': He doesn't necessarily want to move to Ohio. And that was one pool where we actually got a fair number of really qualified candidates because we were able to [00:48:00] make it fully remote. And we've sort of decided that our it adjacent positions are the ones that we're allowing fully. People to fill those positions in order to hopefully poach people from the schools that are not as enlightened about remote [00:48:15] work and get some of that talent in our house so that we can build that infrastructure on in our team.

[00:48:22] Jason Simon: Yeah. And I think that, I think one, I think that's super, super smart and I think that, you know, it's a great recognition that those are the types of roles that [00:48:30] can be supported from afar. I think anytime you make that decision, you know, another place that, that you can go and for some other schools that don't have as many resources, those are the types of things that can be outsourced.

[00:48:42] Jason Simon: We just need to become comfortable with that. Right? Like [00:48:45] we don't need to, you know, continue to continually build these large enterprises and these large teams with things that can be easily outsourced. And in handled by somebody who is responsible for the technology, [00:49:00] staying on top of the technology, knows how to use it knows how to support other folks.

[00:49:04] Jason Simon: We, we need to be okay with that because, you know, if you've been in this industry long enough, you know, that the budget cycle goes up and down. And so, you know, whether we're talking about institutional change and a new leader coming in, or [00:49:15] you're talking about a decline in state funding or a drop in enrollment, right?

[00:49:18] Jason Simon: Like the enrollment declines, the demographic cliff that we're hitting right now, we knew that it was coming. We know that another one's coming, right. And you know, that a budget impact is going to be felt because of that. And so [00:49:30] buttress ourselves against some of those realities and don't spend money on the things, you know, building a team that you inevitably are just going to lose those people and have to turn around and it's going to cost you more.

[00:49:40] Jason Simon: And you're not gonna be able to recruit the talent that you need to buy. So they're, you know, the technology is a [00:49:45] piece, the budgeting is a piece, but again, you know, this comes back to like good, smart leadership and strong decisions. 

[00:49:53] Jaime Hunt': Yeah, for sure. For sure. So as we get ready to wrap up, I know that when you unveiled the [00:50:00] survey in February, you talked about what questions do people want to see in the future, but were there any surprises in the survey this year and what changes would you want to make for the next cycle, which is, I guess in two years, what kind of questions are you getting [00:50:15] demand for?

[00:50:16] Jaime Hunt': I 

[00:50:16] Jason Simon: think there's always surprises. So that's the fun thing. Even if it's like, you know, the question that we replicated the data is surprising for some people and always helpful. And now it's so fun to be able to, you know, look back at all of the multiple years that we'd done the [00:50:30] studies and be able to see how things have changed from 2014 to 2021.

[00:50:35] Jason Simon: And. So that's great. We generally like, you know, we usually keep about 50% or so of the same questions. We, those are benchmarking questions [00:50:45] and we're trying to layer in about 50% new questions each time, you know, and it seems like every year that we do it, two or three of the questions wind up becoming benchmarking questions, right?

[00:50:54] Jason Simon: Like it was worth it enough that we'll keep it for the next time and said that the survey is getting a little longer [00:51:00] and you know, more, more complex. I think for what I want in the future, I would say one w we just need to continue as an industry to put more and more value in this study and get more and more respondents, you know, because people [00:51:15] do, there's an inevitable, like desire to compare yourself to other similar sized or similar gold institutions.

[00:51:23] Jason Simon: And, you know, it always pains me when we only have 30 or 40 of those schools. I would love to [00:51:30] see. This response pool from CMOs, you know, B 2000 plus institutions. And right now it's, you know, between 200 and 300 every year. So that's one point. The other thing that was raised this [00:51:45] year and I'm glad it was.

[00:51:47] Jason Simon: And you know, I wish that we had identified it earlier, but one of the questions that we got when we were, when we did the webinar was what's the demo breakdown of CMOs. And [00:52:00] I was like, you know, we don't ask any, this first study we've ever done. We don't ask any demographic questions. What race and ethnicity are you?

[00:52:06] Jason Simon: You know, what's your age where, you know, any of those kinds of things. And I think that I think that, you know, just as [00:52:15] higher ed is having in and from a student and a prospective student standpoint from a faculty standpoint, We're having a reckoning around our diversity. I think that administratively and in particular, you know, I think that marketing communications [00:52:30] roles we would benefit from having more diversity in marketing leaders you know, who are diverse and bring diverse and inclusive experiences to be able to make our marketing more diverse and more inclusive.

[00:52:43] Jason Simon: And I think it's really important. And [00:52:45] when I think about, you know, who I see around me when I go to professional conferences and, you know, do training and there's a lot of white people there really are, and our industry needs to be more diverse. And I think we need to be more [00:53:00] intentional around decision-making on that.

[00:53:02] Jason Simon: And I think that is one of those things that we will ask that question in the future. And I regret that we didn't ask it before. Cause I'd love to have, you know, eight years. Of what that looks like and how that's possibly changed. [00:53:15] 

[00:53:15] Jaime Hunt': I would love to see that would be fascinating and I would hope that it would match the demographic shifts that we're seeing in the country, in terms of the growing majority of minority populations.

[00:53:29] Jaime Hunt': You [00:53:30] make a great 

[00:53:30] Jason Simon: point. I think that higher ed leaders, I mean, we have been very fortunate that, and maybe there's some other roles that are similar to this from a university leadership standpoint, but I think there have always been a lot of [00:53:45] women in marketing communications, leadership positions within higher ed.

[00:53:49] Jason Simon: I think it has served the industry and the institutions well. And but now we really need to be much more effective in changing the diversity and being more [00:54:00] inclusive about the people that are recruited for these. 

[00:54:04] Jaime Hunt': Yeah, absolutely. And I think we as CMOs also have the opportunity to start to build up the next class for so to speak of CMOs and look for [00:54:15] opportunities to mentor and help grow BiPAP colleagues so that they can get the experiences that they need to be able to fill our seats when we move on.

[00:54:24] Jason Simon: I agree. I think that that mentoring that opening the door, [00:54:30] welcoming people into roles, being very intentional about growth opportunities. It's certainly important for every talented professional that you have. It's more important for the industry that we pay particular [00:54:45] attention to being inclusive there because.

[00:54:48] Jason Simon: Gosh knows the colleges and universities need that perspective. They really do. And you know, I think again, like having those kinds of voices at the table, just [00:55:00] like having an effective marketing leader will serve the institutions well and ultimately will make the industry better and we'll make it more inclusive.

[00:55:07] Jason Simon: And we'll see a real billion pop there. 

[00:55:10] Jaime Hunt': I think that's what we're people like you and I are. What we're trying to [00:55:15] do is make the industry better. I mean, I think that's, I know we talked a little bit before we started recording about just the desire to see the rising tide lifts all boats and in this profession to advance and grow and.[00:55:30] 

[00:55:30] Jaime Hunt': I just really appreciate your time today talking about the survey. And I appreciate the surface that Simpson Scarborough is providing to CMOs in doing the survey. It can't be a small undertaking to pull it together and then develop the insights and do all of the [00:55:45] subsequent meetings and presentations around it.

[00:55:47] Jaime Hunt': So I, for one, I'm really grateful that you guys put that out into the world and you don't make us pay you for the survey and let us have access to that data. That's very generous. [00:56:00] 

[00:56:00] Jason Simon: Well, thank you for saying that. And you know, it's a real pleasure. I mean, I think one of the things that I feel really proud of every day when I fire up my computer and zoom is that, you know, I'm surrounded by people who, I think one of the things that is really common [00:56:15] among our agency is people who care about higher ed and know it's impact.

[00:56:20] Jason Simon: That's the reason why it's in the easy decision for us to do things like the CMOs study and other kinds of things like that. 

[00:56:26] Jaime Hunt': I really appreciate it. So Jason, where can people find you if they [00:56:30] want to follow you on social media? 

[00:56:32] Jason Simon: Oh my gosh. My, well, obviously you can follow Simpson Scarborough at app simp star on Twitter, and you can find us on LinkedIn.

[00:56:40] Jason Simon: Our website is simpsonscarborough.com. For me personally I am at Simon [00:56:45] which, which is my grandfather's given family name before he immigrated to the United states and became Simon. So I wouldn't even attempt to to find that, but I'm fairly active on [00:57:00] Twitter and LinkedIn, whenever I'm not completely worn out by Twitter and like the, so are 

[00:57:05] Jaime Hunt': you Polish?

[00:57:08] Jason Simon: My grandfather was Polish. Grandmother was Romanian. Oh, 

[00:57:12] Jaime Hunt': awesome. I'm half Polish. And [00:57:15] so I kind of recognize a Polish sounding last name 

[00:57:19] Jason Simon: and anything with WIC Z become it became okay. Right. You came to the state, so 

[00:57:26] Jaime Hunt': yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks everyone for listening. [00:57:30] Please find me, follow me on Twitter.

[00:57:32] Jaime Hunt': I would love to chat with you. My DMS are open. You can find me at Jamie hunt IMC. And my parents blessed me with an interesting spelling for Jamie it's. J a I M E H U N T I M [00:57:45] C. You can find me on LinkedIn at Jamie hunt, and you can also check out my website at the higher ed cmo.com. And I look forward to continuing the conversation on Twitter.

[00:57:56] Jaime Hunt': Use the hashtag higher ed, and we will continue to [00:58:00] have this conversation and thank you and see you next time.[00:58:15] [00:58:30] .