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Podcasts Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO Episode 3
Mixing Business with Measure
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Enrollify - Confessions of A Higher Ed CMO - 3 - New ad
[00:00:00] Jaime Hunt: Hi, I'm a higher education CMO and I have a confession to make measuring ROI is the bane of my existence. I am so excited to have this week's guest on to talk a little bit more about how we can do this super [00:00:15] tricky thing, because I don't think I'm alone.[00:00:30]
[00:00:37] Jaime Hunt: Welcome to confessions of a higher ed CML, the podcast designed for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jamie hunt. And I am [00:00:45] so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration with confessions of a higher as CMO. I'm defining a different kind of podcasts. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive, into the challenges [00:01:00] and joys.
[00:01:00] Jaime Hunt: We all face in higher education market. After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter or using the hashtag higher ed CLL. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast and be sure to [00:01:15] follow me on Twitter at, at Jamie hunt IMC. That's J a I M E H U N T I M. For more opportunities to connect.[00:01:30]
[00:01:30] Jaime Hunt: Hey everybody. I am thrilled to be here with Josh Dodson, who is the vice president of innovation for vision point marketing. Hey Josh, how are you?
[00:01:39] Josh Dodson: Hi, I'm doing well. How are you?
[00:01:41] Jaime Hunt: I am doing well. I am so thrilled to have you here. Um, [00:01:45] when I posted on Twitter, looking for somebody who has expertise in measuring ROI, your name came up and I wasn't surprised cause I've been familiar with you and your work for a while.
[00:01:54] Jaime Hunt: So thank you so much for joining me on confessions of a higher ed CMO.
[00:01:59] Josh Dodson: Oh, it's my [00:02:00] pleasure. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
[00:02:02] Jaime Hunt: Awesome. So, so Josh, tell me a little bit about your higher ed journey.
[00:02:07] Josh Dodson: Yeah, sure. So I've been in higher ed for over 15 years now and I've worked at all kinds of different, [00:02:15] um, I guess roles within institutions, both, uh, Actually working at a university, um, I've worked at four different universities as well as a couple of different agencies.
[00:02:27] Josh Dodson: Um, so I started at, uh, my Alma [00:02:30] mater Lincoln Memorial university in Harrogate, Tennessee. And, uh, from there, I went into the agency side of things for a few years and then went back, uh, to Eastern Kentucky United. Uh, at which point I, um, I finished my second [00:02:45] master's degree and started my doctoral work there.
[00:02:47] Josh Dodson: So I was, I was actually doing marketing. I oversaw. Uh, digital marketing and analytics and that sort of thing. But I also was teaching some classes, which I really enjoyed. Um, from, [00:03:00] from there, I was recruited to go to S and H U uh, the, uh, big online, uh, institution with, uh, the bus, uh, that most people recognize.
[00:03:10] Josh Dodson: Um, and then from SMHU, I spend a little bit of time at Bentley university [00:03:15] before coming to vision point where I've been for, um, about four and a half years now. It's been an exciting, uh, journey. Um, I've, I've learned a lot with it. And, um, one, one additional piece that I'll just mention is, uh, for [00:03:30] about five years of that, I also taught, um, web analytics as well as kind of advanced statistical courses in analytics and measurement for.
[00:03:40] Josh Dodson: Through higher ed experts. And so, um, I've had over 500 [00:03:45] students go through those month long courses. And, um, I've been able to learn a lot about how institutions are using web analytics, as well as some, some deeper business analytics. And, and so, uh, both, both personal experience as well as, uh, what, I've, what [00:04:00] I've heard and seen in the industry.
[00:04:01] Josh Dodson: In my conversations.
[00:04:03] Jaime Hunt: I, in my confession for this episode, I talked about how measuring ROI is sort of the. This elusive thing that I can never quite get my hands around. And I know I'm [00:04:15] Zack on my staff and I have talked to you a little bit about this, but why do you think measuring ROI or having a measurement plan is important for marketers?
[00:04:24] Josh Dodson: Yeah, I think that's a really, really good question. And I would actually go [00:04:30] back to, um, the importance of being good stewards. Of, uh, the resources that we're given. Um, I think that there's a, that is particularly important, um, in service to the mission of higher education. And so, [00:04:45] um, the way that I think about it at least, is that the better that we were able to use those resources, the more lives we can impact.
[00:04:52] Josh Dodson: And, uh, if we're able to get more, uh, people who were just thinking. Going to school, if we could turn [00:05:00] them into actual students, um, and get them to enroll in classes, uh, that's a win in my perspective. And, um, marketing actually plays a really important role in that. And I think that, um, very often there's a disconnect between marketing [00:05:15] and admissions.
[00:05:15] Josh Dodson: We each kind of track and measure our own metrics, but in reality, um, we're able to connect those, uh, metrics, if you will. We're able to see. All the way through and see marketing's impact directly on [00:05:30] that, um, that student journey. Uh, so I think it's really exciting, um, to, to dig into analytics and measurement specifically, so that way we can really impact more lives and ideally improve our society overall.[00:05:45]
[00:05:45] Josh Dodson: And God knows it needs to be improved.
[00:05:47] Jaime Hunt: That is such an interesting way to look at it and not something I've thought about before. I really love that insight that we're not just talking about stewardship, but just even beyond that, making the world a better place. [00:06:00] I love that. What, what misconceptions do you think are out there about measuring our.
[00:06:07] Josh Dodson: Yeah, there are definitely some, some big misconceptions around, you know, what, what it is that we can measure, [00:06:15] what we can't measure. Um, I think sometimes people will run into a, um, a roadblock in trying to implement some type of measurement system. And, um, you know, they'll, they'll be told, no, I can't, I can't add this [00:06:30] tracking code to this piece or, you know, maybe, maybe there's.
[00:06:34] Josh Dodson: Uh, issues with doing that and what I find more often than not is that, um, it's, it really is possible to do the measurement and to implement the [00:06:45] tracking mechanisms and all of those things. It just requires a good amount. Organization, um, on behalf of, of those who are doing the, the marketing efforts, um, and also, uh, a good relationship between, [00:07:00] uh, between departments in very often, um, you know, the marketing team has to rely on the, um, it team.
[00:07:08] Josh Dodson: You know, add tracking code, perhaps even other teams. You know, if you're adding some tracking elements, for [00:07:15] example, to, uh, the student information system, like the application for, for example, and, uh, you know, that requires usually working with another team. And so that, that's something that a lot of people, I think don't anticipate, um, that it, it [00:07:30] really does require, uh, a fair bit of interpersonal skills, um, in the more that you're able to.
[00:07:37] Josh Dodson: Be comfortable, you know, uh, working. Cross departments. Um, the more successful you'll be. And, [00:07:45] um, and you start to realize that whatever roadblocks you might've thought were there really aren't there. Um, they're just, they're more often than not self-imposed um, because you know, with web, you can, you can do so many things, uh, with digital [00:08:00] marketing.
[00:08:00] Josh Dodson: It's, it's really just a matter of, of getting the right people together to, to make it happen. And so that's probably the biggest area where I would say. Is a, there's some misconceptions in, in, in terms of what you can and can't do. [00:08:15] And, uh, I, I tend to have the philosophy. It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
[00:08:21] Josh Dodson: Um, and so going and testing stuff, you know, putting it out there, trying it out and, and, uh, and, but if you mess something up, be very quick to [00:08:30] apologize, uh, so that you can maintain those good relationships across departments.
[00:08:36] Jaime Hunt: I think that sometimes that ask forgiveness instead of permission is the only way we move ahead.
[00:08:41] Jaime Hunt: In a lot of cases, I, at my last [00:08:45] institution, it was a big fight to get a pixel added to a footer. And like everybody in the world is doing this. There has to be a way to do this. When I asked about this on Twitter a few weeks ago, [00:09:00] one person shared that they thought that measurement is unnecessary. Just go with your gut and do what your gut tells you.
[00:09:06] Jaime Hunt: And if it works, it works. Um, what do you think about that? Do you think that that's true?
[00:09:13] Josh Dodson: You know, I, I think that, [00:09:15] um, for certain. People that have been doing marketing for a long time. Um, there are, you know, some, some kind of gut reactions that they can certainly rely on. And, um, but I think that [00:09:30] those individuals are, are still relying on their experience and the things that.
[00:09:35] Josh Dodson: In the past. And, um, I will also say that there are certain institutions, um, the IVs of the world in particular that might not [00:09:45] have the same goals as you know, the, the average institution in America. You know, they're not just trying to necessarily get more students. It's about shaping the class. It's about getting the right types of students measurements still very helpful in those instance.
[00:09:58] Josh Dodson: But they're not lacking [00:10:00] in applications. Um, and so, you know, at a, at an institution, like, uh, like a Harvard, for example, just going to pick on them, uh, you know, cause I know some folks there, uh, they they're doing, they're doing fine in terms of, of, of [00:10:15] applications. And so. The types of insights that you can use from, um, marketing analytics to be able to make better choices, to get more applications, you know, that type of measurement isn't as important to them probably.
[00:10:29] Josh Dodson: Um, [00:10:30] it isn't maybe something that they rely on quite as much to maintain, you know, their bottom line to maintain, you know, Make sure that their school is able to stay open. Um, and I think that that's certainly a perspective that, um, I respect and [00:10:45] it's a nice situation to be in. Um, but frankly, you know, the, the vast majority, you know, th the remaining 3000 plus institutions in America, you know, that do rely on, you know, students to come to the institution and, you [00:11:00] know, they need to keep those students there.
[00:11:01] Josh Dodson: They need to attract those right students, uh, Mechanism of some kind and a plan. Um, the strategy is really essential to being able to kind of parse [00:11:15] out which marketing channels and which elements, you know, even sometimes which messages resonate better with the right audience. Um, so I, I think that that's a fair comment, um, especially as, as we're drawing on, you know, years and years of [00:11:30] experience in some cases, or if we're at an institution that, um, that.
[00:11:35] Josh Dodson: You don't, you're not frankly facing the same problems that other institutions are a measurement might not be as important for, for those people. Um, and I can [00:11:45] definitely respect that, but I think that, you know, for the vast majority of, of higher education institutions, it really is. I would, I would argue not only important, it's essential to, um, to staying open, um, in many cases, because [00:12:00] as we're going into.
[00:12:01] Josh Dodson: You know, even deeper demographic cliff over the next few years, um, you know, the, the pool is only shrinking of, of which students you can attract, especially on the traditional undergrad side of things. And [00:12:15] so, um, it's going to be more and more important to make sure that, you know, the effectiveness of every single thing you're doing is tracked.
[00:12:22] Josh Dodson: So that way you can know, yes, I need to do more of this or no, I need to stop doing this other than. Um, so yeah, I think [00:12:30] that's a fair, a fair comment, but it's within certain contexts.
[00:12:37] Jaime Hunt: Hey, off. I hope you're enjoying this episode of confessions of a higher ed CMO. I want to take just a quick moment to thank my friends at nectar who [00:12:45] made this new enroll five podcast possible nectar brings affordable communications infrastructure to college campuses. It's like slack, but for the higher ed student experience, nectar integrates seamlessly with all major elements.
[00:12:57] Jaime Hunt: Taking it easy for instructors and administrators to build [00:13:00] a merchant learning communities in all of their classes and groups without the extra work, their focus is on boosting student engagement and reducing instructor stress. They building a learning community in every classroom by leveraging familiar technology like instant messaging.[00:13:15]
[00:13:15] Jaime Hunt: Nick to prepare students for the remote yet collaborative work environment of the future. You can learn more about their platform by heading on over to nectar that's N E C T I r.io. And be sure to tell the team that Jamie sent you their way. [00:13:30] It's funny, you mentioned Harvard because I just saw today that their admit rate for this coming fall is under 4% now.
[00:13:38] Jaime Hunt: And I don't think they're struggling for applications to your point. Um, if a [00:13:45] CMO has never had a measurement plan in place, where should they start with that?
[00:13:51] Josh Dodson: Yeah, that's a really great question. And, um, I would actually, uh, I would argue that a really good [00:14:00] place to start, you know, before anything else is to, um, Either read or at least familiarize yourself with the institution's strategic plan.
[00:14:12] Josh Dodson: Um, the reason for that is because, [00:14:15] you know, if, if there's a strategic plan that they really do take seriously and that they're following, um, it should be outlined what those priorities are for the institution. And that will inform what you're measuring and how you're measuring it. [00:14:30] So, as, as an example, if, if the, I.
[00:14:33] Josh Dodson: If the goal is to grow student enrollment, um, even within particular segments, um, maybe, um, first time on a first time students, uh, you know, um, [00:14:45] first-generation students or, um, in any number of segments of students, military. So on understanding what those priorities are, allows you to work backwards. Um, and.
[00:14:56] Josh Dodson: Think about your, uh, what I refer to as macro level [00:15:00] goals, um, those kinds of institutional goals, um, that, that really, you know, the president, uh, cares about. And, uh, and therefore, you know, Um, other other people on the cabinet, you know, tend to [00:15:15] care about. And so understanding those macro level goals is, is the most important first step.
[00:15:21] Josh Dodson: Um, most schools tend to share those, uh, that tends to be enrollments that tends to be, um, donations, uh, [00:15:30] advancement, you know, kind of giving, uh, those sorts of fundraising efforts. Um, as well as, uh, alumni engagement, you know, there might be something related to. You know, sports, uh, uh, participation or, um, you know, kind of [00:15:45] getting people to come to certain events.
[00:15:46] Josh Dodson: Like those are all different types of, of higher level goals that an institution might have that they tend to be shared across most institutions. And that's why our industry is, is kind of nice. We do [00:16:00] share a lot of similar goals and, and therefore we're able to, uh, talk shop and compare notes, uh, which is something that not every industry does.
[00:16:09] Josh Dodson: That's one thing I love about higher ed. Um, and so, you know, w when that's the case, [00:16:15] trying to, uh, trying to bring it down to the specific measurable pieces, you know, becomes a lot easier. And so if you're trying to. Recruit, um, students and, and, you know, especially, let's say traditional undergrad students, you're trying to hit a certain [00:16:30] number.
[00:16:30] Josh Dodson: Well, you start to ask, well, what, what leads to that number? What are the steps? And, and of course, applications, you know, and then inquiries. And then before inquiries, even visits to the website, before that even clicks on an ad or [00:16:45] a, you know, maybe a Google search, um, you, you start to see that there are very specific things that roll up to those macro level goals, um, that when you, when you start to see how they, they relate to one another, it becomes much easier to.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Josh Dodson: To make better decisions about, you know, how you're, how you're approaching that measurement strategy.
[00:17:07] Jaime Hunt: I love that. I think that connecting to our strategic plan is something that we need to be conscious of in all of our work. And [00:17:15] I think it's something that it can be really easy to just focus on what's in front of you and less on what the long-term vision is.
[00:17:25] Jaime Hunt: And. Sometimes the it's enrollment numbers to your point, sometimes it's [00:17:30] NTR. So it's more about getting more students who can pay full freight or, or, um, that kind of thing. So that I love that idea of rolling it up into the strategic plan. One of the things I think we face in higher ed, and I'm [00:17:45] sure other industries too, but it's being able to track ROI.
[00:17:50] Jaime Hunt: And, and attach it to specific tactics because often the conversion isn't linear, like it's, it's a very, it's a multi-year [00:18:00] process to choose what college you're going to attend. How would you suggest approaching that challenge?
[00:18:06] Josh Dodson: Yeah, that's a great question. I think there are a few different things that I would definitely recommend having in place.
[00:18:13] Josh Dodson: Um, the [00:18:15] first of which is going to be your standard web analytics platform, usually Google analytics. Um, and the, the nice thing about that is, um, by default, even just having that without connecting it to anything else you're able to start seeing, [00:18:30] you know, traffic sources where people are coming from, um, you're able to start seeing even a multichannel.
[00:18:37] Josh Dodson: Uh, attribution now, usually with Google analytics and those types of things. That, um, a [00:18:45] conversion is most often either a button click, uh, let's say to an application or, um, the completion of an inquiry form. Those tend to be the standard, uh, goal conversions. And, um, those are [00:19:00] important to track if you're able to track all the way through.
[00:19:03] Josh Dodson: Completed application that's even better. Um, but you know, certain systems do, uh, make it a little bit more challenging, not impossible, but challenging. Um, and then. [00:19:15] Once you're able to, once you have that foundation in place, you have the system, um, you can start to take some more, uh, deliberate approaches in how you're, um, sending out your, your messaging and [00:19:30] your advertising.
[00:19:31] Josh Dodson: So let's say you have, um, some Facebook ads. You can use what we call UTM parameters. And so that's the, when you look at the law, Web address, you know, that UTM underscore campaign [00:19:45] equals UTM underscore medium equals all of those. You know, there are five of them in total, but, um, you, you start to organize your campaign around those parameters using consistent naming conventions.
[00:19:58] Josh Dodson: If you're going to use, [00:20:00] uh, you know, CPC for, uh, for Google and you're also running, being used, the same thing, don't change it to PPC. Um, if those types of small things actually can make a big difference over time. Uh, so I would start, uh, making sure [00:20:15] that you're, you're using consistent naming conventions and then employ a very strict policy that everything that comes out of marketing, uh, and ideally out of marketing and.
[00:20:28] Josh Dodson: Admissions, uh, [00:20:30] anything that's sort of leading to that goal, uh, is tracked. Um, and so that includes emails that includes the, you know, email systems and anything that, that might send people back to the website or, or encourage [00:20:45] people to interact in some way should have those UTM parameters. Um, now they don't have to be.
[00:20:51] Josh Dodson: Oh, ultra specific for every single one, you know, you can keep it kind of generic and there are three main parameters to use that's campaign. [00:21:00] Medium and a source. And so that's a nice way to do it, but if you want to be a little bit more sophisticated in your approach, I would also recommend using the content parameter.
[00:21:10] Josh Dodson: And the reason for that is because you can start to differentiate your [00:21:15] messaging a little bit more, and let's say you're running one ad. Um, you know, that's focused on. Uh, active duty military, um, audience, and then you're running another ad. That's focused on veterans. Well, you can use that [00:21:30] content parameter to differentiate between the two.
[00:21:32] Josh Dodson: And then, uh, afterwards, after it's been running for awhile, you can not only look and see what the differences are, but if you want to make some really strong decisions on what's going to be. [00:21:45] Best going forward. You can even apply some statistical approaches like a Chi square analysis. That's something that we do quite a bit at vision point is we'll, uh, we'll run multiple campaign variations, apply a Chi square analysis to.
[00:21:59] Josh Dodson: Is [00:22:00] there a statistical difference between these two different messages? Um, sometimes there is, and that's great. Sometimes there's not, and you know, that's fine too. We're just, we, we learn from every bit of information that we, we bring in. Um, [00:22:15] but making sure that. You know, you have, you've made those decisions on kind of how you're going to approach the, the tracking in those naming conventions and things like that made those decisions.
[00:22:26] Josh Dodson: And then everyone is on board, um, and [00:22:30] implementing those. And that's something that does require a little policing. If it's, if it's not been done before, it's, uh, you know, Giving some, uh, uh, some leeway on, uh, for those individuals to get used to, you know, for a period of time, at least. And, um, [00:22:45] and then it becomes second nature over time.
[00:22:47] Josh Dodson: It's, it's something that frankly, you know, my team doesn't even really think about because it's just an automatic thing that they're gonna, they're going to add to all of these different, uh, ad types. Um, and so. [00:23:00] Getting those pieces in place that, that foundation, um, makes it much easier and then tracking it kind of connecting it to, um, kind of, I would say the down funnel pieces, which is, which would be the application [00:23:15] and even more importantly, uh, enrollments, uh, deposits and enrollments.
[00:23:20] Josh Dodson: Um, there are mechanisms to do that. We actually have a tool that we call enrollment drive and, and. For this exact reason to do this exact thing, um, to [00:23:30] connect it all the way through. And it relies on, on kind of a shared ID between systems, uh, making sure that, you know, the, the web analytics system and your CRM or your student information system has a, a shared [00:23:45] ID so that you can actually see all the way through that process, um, that it definitely takes some setup and some work, uh, you know, um, not, you know, Push a enrollment drive too hard, but like, you know, we're happy to talk with, and even just [00:24:00] kind of show you how, how we do things, um, at vision point.
[00:24:03] Josh Dodson: And so there's some, there are some easier ways to do it and then there's some more challenging ways to do it. Um, but. That there are quite a few institutions that have this [00:24:15] set up, uh, even today. Uh SNAQ um, you know, we had it set up there, um, at Bentley, it kind of some other other institutions that we've worked with, we've been able to set these things up and while it's taken some work, um, B being able to [00:24:30] see this specific marketing tactic drove a student in to the website, they left this other tactic, brought them back.
[00:24:38] Josh Dodson: You know, maybe remarketing or organic or something like. They're back to the website and then what action are they [00:24:45] taking? Are they they're completing an inquiry form, maybe they're leaving. Then an email brings them back again to actually do the application. Um, you know, and, and then, so you start to, you start to see the full process of that full downstream, um, [00:25:00] impact and, and, and start to see, okay, these are the efforts that more often than not, um, lead to an, an enrolled student.
[00:25:09] Josh Dodson: One of the key limitations that most, um, you know, marketing measurement, you [00:25:15] know, individuals kind of face is like, you're exactly right. You can't see that full, that full view, but it's possible. And it's, and it's much easier than, than folks realize. Uh, because when you can see that you can actually find some times I'm [00:25:30] remembering when I was at Bentley, we, it looked like Facebook was a much more effective.
[00:25:37] Josh Dodson: Platform than Google ads were in terms of, of getting inquiries. So we were getting a lot more inquiries from [00:25:45] Facebook, but when you can actually measure that all the way down to cost per enrolled student by marketing channel, it was the opposite. Um, Facebook wasn't actually bringing in a lot of enrolled students.
[00:25:56] Josh Dodson: Uh, what we were seeing was that there were a lot more enrolled students [00:26:00] coming from Google search. And so if we had made the decision based on. Earlier data that we had, we would have made the wrong decision, you know, and that that's not to say that, you know, in either case you need to get rid of a [00:26:15] channel, but rather how you reallocate those resources and maybe shift some money from one channel to another, uh, can be very different depending on how deep you can see into that funnel.
[00:26:26] Josh Dodson: Um, but understanding what that costs per enrolled student [00:26:30] is, um, that's, that's super empowering.
[00:26:33] Jaime Hunt: That is fascinating like that, that you may have acted on information that was inaccurate. If you didn't have that whole path, how did you get all this? How did you get all this [00:26:45] knowledge? How do you know all this?
[00:26:48] Josh Dodson: Well, I've made a lot of mistakes over the years. And so, uh, as a result, I've, I've been able to learn from them and, uh, and so. Um, reading a lot meeting people I'm doing, [00:27:00] I'm a, I'm a huge proponent of experimentation. Um, I think that the more you can experiment, um, and try out different things in a measurable way, uh, that, that says, you know, this works better than this.
[00:27:12] Josh Dodson: Um, I'm all for it. And so, yeah, a lot [00:27:15] of trial and error.
[00:27:17] Jaime Hunt: Well, and I think there's, um, this line of work seems like it would be very appealing to somebody who does want to explore and innovate and try things. And, um, I, you mentioned earlier that you love that this industry is one [00:27:30] where people share their purse or share their insights and share the ability to kind of offer input on what other people are doing.
[00:27:39] Jaime Hunt: And I love that about higher ed. I mean, it's just, it's remarkable how generous people are in [00:27:45] higher ed.
[00:27:46] Josh Dodson: It really is. Yeah. That's it. I mean, people share so much. I mean, it's sometimes you, you, you, you learn more at a conference just by having conversations and even going to the session sometimes.
[00:27:57] Jaime Hunt: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:27:58] Jaime Hunt: I feel like I [00:28:00] know somebody at every school, which is not true, of course, but I feel like I could track down somebody at just about every school and make some sort of connection. Okay. Ask for help on something and get help. I know I just I'm totally tangenting [00:28:15] here, but, um, a couple of months ago I needed to reach out to a colleague at university of Washington and I left a voicemail and he called back in 10 minutes and cleared some time on his calendar to talk to me the next day about a problem that I was having.
[00:28:28] Jaime Hunt: And I'd never [00:28:30] met the person before my life. I don't imagine that, you know, target CMOs is calling best buy com and getting that same level of, yeah. I'll tell you everything I did. And I'll even package up the files for you.
[00:28:44] Josh Dodson: Right. [00:28:45] That's awesome. I, I love that. It, you know, I mean, you're, you're exactly right.
[00:28:49] Josh Dodson: It's that it's that care and I, in the, I could be wrong, but I think a lot of that goes back to the fact that we work at mission-based organizations, um, in, [00:29:00] and, you know, Obviously the case of every place, but, um, the fact that so many of us work in higher ed because we care about people, you know, having opportunities and, and, and being able to help other, uh, other, um, [00:29:15] people, you know, go to school and change their lives.
[00:29:17] Josh Dodson: I mean, I think that that at least for a lot of folks I know is, uh, is a big inspiration. Uh, and I, I hope it continues.
[00:29:24] Jaime Hunt: I hope so too. I think it ties back to your original point where you're saying that we're in this to make the world a better [00:29:30] place, not just our individual campuses, but the world. Um, so back on track, sorry, that's a Jamie tangent.
[00:29:38] Jaime Hunt: Um, what KPIs do you think we should be tracking?
[00:29:43] Josh Dodson: Sure. That that's a, [00:29:45] that's an interesting question because it depends on. Um, it depends on the person, um, in the organization. And so, uh, let's say that you have someone running, um, you know, Facebook campaigns, the [00:30:00] types of KPIs that they should be tracking are going to be very similar to the types of KPIs that the CMOs should be looking at, that you know, that you would want to look at on a regular basis, but there's probably a level of detail that you might not need that they, that they [00:30:15] would.
[00:30:15] Josh Dodson: Um, and so some of those KPIs. You know, that that might be, um, that a digital marketing strategist, for example, might, might want to look at, are going to be those, you know, cost per click, um, you know, numbers, some of the, [00:30:30] um, cost per action or, or, um, you know, sometimes, you know, cost per inquiry. We'll refer to it.
[00:30:36] Josh Dodson: All of that's really important. And the cost per inquiry might, might, you know, be something that you want on the CMO dash. But [00:30:45] perhaps, you know, not cost per click that might not be as important or as relevant because those tend to be things that you're, um, you're using. Micro, uh, changes in the moment, um, as you're kind of, uh, [00:31:00] adjusting campaigns.
[00:31:01] Josh Dodson: So, but I think they're all, they're all important clicks, um, view through conversions. All of those things can be, um, useful kind of at a, at a, at a practitioner level. Um, and when you're reporting it up, I [00:31:15] think the way that I would describe it. You need to, um, you need to get em, um, narrower in your focus and they need to be more closely connected to those original goals, those, those macro [00:31:30] level goals.
[00:31:30] Josh Dodson: And so, um, at the high level, at the highest level, you know, The, the type of information that the CMO might expect on a dashboard cost per enrolled student by marketing channel in my view is probably the most [00:31:45] important one. Um, uh, in terms of being able to make marketing decisions. Um, you can, you can look at the average how what's our average cost per enrolled student across all marketing channels.
[00:31:57] Josh Dodson: And then you can look at the individual channels [00:32:00] and that way you have a basis. Um, to compare against and you're able to then tweak and kind of say, well, this one, I'm several thousand dollars over for, you know, to enroll a student, uh, as compared to this other channel. [00:32:15] And so you might, that doesn't mean necessarily that you'll get rid of the more expensive channel.
[00:32:19] Josh Dodson: Um, but it might mean that you might change the way you're using it. Um, and, and make some, um, some shifts in. Or messaging or approach. Um, [00:32:30] those, those tend to really point to the type of strategic changes that, um, that really needs to happen, uh, or at least needs the involvement of the CMO. Um, so, uh, cost per enrolled student is a big one.
[00:32:43] Josh Dodson: I would even say cost per [00:32:45] inquiry as a comparison point, um, is a really helpful one. If you're going to see, um, if you're going to be helping with advancement campaigns, you know, Aspect of it. And, and if the goal is, um, is to get donations, for example, uh, [00:33:00] you might track it to the donation form and, and some of those systems actually can work like e-commerce systems and push some of that data back into the web analytics tool.
[00:33:10] Josh Dodson: So, um, so that you can actually see directly within that. [00:33:15] What the different, um, you know, costs for the marketing channels are to get people to donate. So those are a few, um, example metrics. Uh, I think what, what all of this really comes down to though, [00:33:30] and one of the most important metrics that isn't necessarily something you'll report on, but it's, it's important to understand is what is the lifetime value of a.
[00:33:39] Josh Dodson: Um, at an institution. And so, you know, you can actually measure that in a number of different ways. [00:33:45] Um, kind of the, the simplest way I would say the easiest is going to say. How much money, um, is, uh, you know, this is this, um, student bringing in, um, and then subtracting all of the, you know, costs [00:34:00] from the, all the basic costs of the institution.
[00:34:03] Josh Dodson: You can multiply that out four years or whatever. The typical graduation rate, uh, graduation number of years is. And you can start to actually see the lifetime. Having a really good idea of that [00:34:15] number as, as sort of your back of back of the head, you know, it's like, what do I need to beat? You know, I can spend up to X number of dollars to bring in a new store.
[00:34:26] Josh Dodson: And breakeven. Right. And you always want to beat that. [00:34:30] You never want to settle for that, but you can at least have an idea of like what, what's your break even point, you know? And that allows you to truly measure ROI, um, in a, in a more significant way, because if you're, if you're only ever at your breakeven, [00:34:45] Um, you know, there are some levers that you can start pulling to actually make the institution more and more profitable over time.
[00:34:54] Josh Dodson: Um, so understanding that lifetime value, um, and then measuring cost per enrolled [00:35:00] student by marketing channel, those are, I would say two of the most important, um, understanding things like clicks and, um, Uh, you know, users to the website, those can be useful, but those are our more of what we refer to [00:35:15] as vanity metrics and the individual who may, who may have said, you know, measurements not important.
[00:35:20] Josh Dodson: Might've been thinking of those kinds of metrics because they're not as important. Um, they're, they're not irrelevant, but they're not as important as, as some of the [00:35:30] metrics that more directly lead to the institutional goals. Um, I know I'm really getting in the weeds with some of these responses, but, uh, I wanna, you know, kind of draw it out as clear as I can, because I think that there's, there's so much [00:35:45] value in.
[00:35:46] Josh Dodson: Um, really most institutions are not even thinking about this. Um, that's why S and H U and some of those other schools that are as successful as they are, that's why they're as successful as they're not the only [00:36:00] reason, but that's a, that's a contributing factor because they're, they're thinking about those.
[00:36:04] Josh Dodson: They're asking those questions and then they know what their limits are. Um, so all of those pieces play together and tend to be really aboard. [00:36:15] Hey, all Zach here from enrolled fight. If you liked this podcast, chances are, you're like other enroller five shows to our podcast network is growing by the month.
[00:36:22] Josh Dodson: And we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed. This. Ideas and frameworks [00:36:30] that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional. Our shows feature a selection of the industries best as your host learn from Mickey Bains, Jeremy tears, Jamie hunt for in Meyers, Jamie Leeson, and many, many more can learn more about the whole five [00:36:45] podcast network at podcasts dot enroll, five.org.
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[00:36:58] Jaime Hunt: No, I think, I [00:37:00] mean, the point of this podcast is to do a deep dive. And so this is great conversation. I just wish I could download your brain into my brain because you are so knowledgeable on this topic.
[00:37:10] Jaime Hunt: And this is definitely something I think a lot of schools struggle with [00:37:15] to your point. Not a lot of schools are doing it. I think there's a lack of knowledge or understanding of how to do it. Um, and it's not necessarily something that you're taught in. When you're in school, like how do you, how do you measure?
[00:37:29] Jaime Hunt: Um, [00:37:30] and when I was in graduate school, they were still talking about my space. So it's not always super relevant by the time you get out into the real world, too. Um, depending on how long ago your education was, um, are there any secondary markers [00:37:45] of ROI that marketers should look out for?
[00:37:48] Josh Dodson: Absolutely. Um, you know, a lot of.
[00:37:54] Josh Dodson: Kind of what I focus on it really is, um, kind of focused on. [00:38:00] Enrollment drivers. A lot of what we focus on are, are those enrollment drivers for good reason. Um, but not everything is about just driving new students. Um, you want to maintain the current students. You have, you, you want to, [00:38:15] um, you want to build community.
[00:38:16] Josh Dodson: You want people to feel connected. Um, and so with those, I actually think that there's a great deal of value in some of the social media. Metrics, um, you know, things like those, [00:38:30] how many conversations are being, um, shared how many conversations or are you seeing, you know, prospective students really engaging and, and having those that back and forth, uh, looking at some of those things.
[00:38:41] Josh Dodson: I think that those are, those are maybe [00:38:45] secondary to some of the, um, you know, more direct. We gotta get a student here. Um, but they're just as important in, in a different way. And, and. Because you've, once you've got all of the other pieces in place, you've [00:39:00] made all of this effort and, you know, you've put in all of this work to get us, to get a student, um, you know, you want, you want to keep them, you want to make sure that they're there, you're doing the right things to keep them at and looking for some of those, looking at the, um, [00:39:15] th those social media metrics and kind of seeing those, those engaging.
[00:39:20] Josh Dodson: You know, scores and things like that, that can be really important. Um, in fact, there are, there are some tools that, um, enrollment drive that I [00:39:30] mentioned at vision point. You know, we have some to measure those types of engagements as well. Um, kind of defined across a number of different things. Like how many times they're coming to the website, how frequently, um, and looking at some of those engagement metrics, because.[00:39:45]
[00:39:45] Josh Dodson: It's really, it's in part about getting people to do a specific thing, but it's also about getting them to want to engage, to want to be there too, you know? Um, and then, and then activating the people on your [00:40:00] team who can then respond. You know, well to, to that, you know, I actually, uh, tip my hat to Liz gross and the campus sonar team and some of the stuff that, that she's doing, um, in, in measuring those social media metrics that [00:40:15] are so important to that conversation, um, that's a little bit different than, uh, you know, that enrollment focus.
[00:40:21] Josh Dodson: Um, so we might call them secondary because they might not be as directly connected, but, um, but there's, I would say [00:40:30] still very much important. Um, and even some of those metrics, like, you know, just number of visits to the website are, or number of visits to particular pages on the website. I know. Um, some institutions, [00:40:45] uh, I know of one even very recently that, um, you know, the, the website went offline for a while when they made it pretty far in, uh, March madness.
[00:40:52] Josh Dodson: And, um, you know, that that's some big surprises there when you're a kind of an institution that not a lot of people [00:41:00] were familiar with and then suddenly you're on the national stage. You Google it and you, you go there. Yeah. Traffic met basic traffic metrics tend to be really important when you're trying to keep your website up.
[00:41:12] Josh Dodson: So yeah, [00:41:15] I, I would, I would definitely include like all of those, um, all of those types of metrics as, um, as perhaps secondary, um, secondary to maybe the, your primary goal, but, um, but also very, very important for, [00:41:30] uh, different.
[00:41:31] Jaime Hunt: Well, and I think some universities, a lot of universities are trying to influence their peers for the us news and world report rankings.
[00:41:41] Jaime Hunt: And so there's, there's some metrics there that I think [00:41:45] you have to make some do some thinking about how will you measure those campaigns and the outcomes of those campaigns. And when I think about. Um, trying to grow a research enterprise. Sometimes that is [00:42:00] something that you may want to have campaigns or communications around to try to improve the perception of your institution for those granting agencies and, um, getting.
[00:42:11] Jaime Hunt: Potential partners from a research perspective to look at your [00:42:15] institution and your faculty and see their expertise. So there are definitely audiences and, um, revenue generating things that aren't always tied to students too, but it's the same basic principles for tracking that, [00:42:30] um, the ROI on those things.
[00:42:32] Josh Dodson: Exactly. And, you know, I think one of the things that, um, at vision 0.1 of, one of our goals for a number of years, Um, to create raving fans, you know, what [00:42:45] does that mean? Right? It's like, how can you measure raving fans? And like, there are different ways, but ultimately, you know, that that's a little bit of a, maybe a softer metric, right.
[00:42:54] Josh Dodson: That you're using. You're, you're getting an idea about like maybe some things, but how often people would recommend you, things like that. [00:43:00] Um, but ultimately your, your real purpose is to generate excitement and, and kind of, uh, interest and intrigue. This is a, this is a, this is the agency we want to work with.
[00:43:11] Josh Dodson: And like they're doing cool stuff and we, we can work [00:43:15] with them and do cool stuff for that institution too. And, and just kind of thinking about that, like raving fans, you know, that's one of our, that's been one of our goals. Um, and, uh, you know, I think, I think those maybe, as I said, like softer metrics are [00:43:30] still equally as important in different ways and, and definitely should not be ignored, um, by any means.
[00:43:36] Jaime Hunt: Yeah. And some of those metrics can drive enrollment. Like, uh, and we all know that if you are an unknown school that appears in [00:43:45] the final, uh, final four, that your applications are going up next year, that's guaranteed. It's too bad. We can't, um, somehow. To make our football teams or basketball [00:44:00] teams perform even better than they do naturally.
[00:44:03] Jaime Hunt: But unfortunately that's not something I've figured out yet. If somebody listening has figured out that, please let me know. Um, do you have any other thoughts on measurement, ROI analytics? Any of [00:44:15] that?
[00:44:16] Josh Dodson: I would just say. The the most important thing that I can, I can share with any, anyone at an institution that hasn't been doing this for a long time, is that that's [00:44:30] okay.
[00:44:30] Josh Dodson: And you have to start where you are. Um, it's okay. If, if you are just setting all of this up from scratch for the first time, um, because I'll be honest. Are in that similar situation. So, [00:44:45] uh, most institutions are, there are only a small handful. Um, and you can probably name them off the top of your head that have had those types of, uh, of infrastructures in place to be able to support it.
[00:44:57] Josh Dodson: And so since most schools [00:45:00] are, are in that same boat, I would encourage everyone. If you find yourself in that same boat, start where you are, but just. Um, there it's so important to just start and, um, put the foundations in [00:45:15] place. Maybe you can't, you know, connect your, your system all the way to your CRM or your student information system yet.
[00:45:21] Josh Dodson: That's okay. Maybe that's a next year project or, or down the road at some point. Um, but you can at least put Google analytics on your site and start [00:45:30] tracking how many inquiry form submissions you get, those sorts of things. Um, but starting small, um, you know, You know, the, the there's, uh, an old, an old versa do not despise small beginnings.
[00:45:44] Josh Dodson: [00:45:45] Um, and that's, I think, uh, there's a lot of wisdom in that.
[00:45:48] Jaime Hunt: I love that. I might have to add that to my, my Twitter bio. That's fantastic. Well, Josh, this has been a fantastic conversation. I'm hoping that everybody listening has had some good [00:46:00] takeaways. If nothing else forward it to somebody on your team to listen to, um, Josh, where can people find you on.
[00:46:08] Josh Dodson: Sure. So, um, probably the best places to find me will be on LinkedIn, Joshua Dotson. You can [00:46:15] just look me up. Uh, uh, and, uh, also on, on Twitter, um, at Joshua D. Dodson, uh, those are, those are two of the best places. I'll also mention that, um, Twitter for, um, for vision point at, uh, [00:46:30] vis point. Um, you know, you can, you can sometimes see me there too, so.
[00:46:34] Josh Dodson: Uh, those are, those are the, probably the best places and I'm always welcome conversation questions. And, and really, um, I just, I love to help institutions [00:46:45] kind of figure out how they can make this work for them. So, uh, please, if there's any questions don't hesitate to.
[00:46:51] Jaime Hunt: Well, thank you. Hopefully this podcast is listened to by millions and you will just be bombarded with people who are looking for help.
[00:46:59] Jaime Hunt: Um, [00:47:00] thank you so much, Josh. This has just been fantastic. And, um, for the listeners, don't forget to use the hashtag higher ed CMO on Twitter to engage in some conversation around this topic. After this episode. I [00:47:15] hope to see you there. And you can always find me on Twitter at Jamie hunt. I am C J a I M E H U N T I C, my mom and dad named me after the bionic woman.
[00:47:26] Jaime Hunt: So I got that nice, weird spelling. And I hope to [00:47:30] see you there. Thank you so much.
[00:47:33] Zach Busekrus: Hey all Zach here from enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of confessions of a higher ed CMO with Jaime Hunt. If you liked this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below.
[00:47:44] Zach Busekrus: Furthermore, [00:47:45] if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leaving a rating and review of this show on apple podcast. Our podcast network is growing by the month. We've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, [00:48:00] ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional.
[00:48:05] Zach Busekrus: But Enrollify is far more than just a podcast network. Enrollify is where higher ed comes to learn new marketing skills, discover new products and services and find their next [00:48:15] job. We're a growing learning community of 4,000 members. And we'd love to welcome you into the fold. You can access our free blog articles, newsletters, e-courses and more, or purchase our master course on how to market a university with Terry Flannery and enrollify [00:48:30] .org.
[00:48:31] Zach Busekrus: We look forward to meeting you soon and welcoming you into the community. Again, you can subscribe for free at enrollify.org [00:48:45]
About the Episode
The what's what...
As marketing higher education matures, measuring the return on investment is one of the most important things a CMO can do, but tackling that can be really challenging. In this episode, analytics and measuring guru Josh Dodson gives practical tips for measuring ROI in a way that helps determine the effectiveness of tactics but also helps justify marketing spend.
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Takeaways from this episode include:
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why measuring ROI is important
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tips for creating a measurement plan
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practical guidance for tracking attribution
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advice on how to use the data you uncover to make decisions
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a deep dive into the KPIs you should consider measuring
Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO is sponsored by our friends at Nectir - the instant chat tool that engages campus communities and reduces burnout. This community and engagement platform is purpose-built for higher education and connects campus classrooms through conversation. In just 12 months, tens of thousands of students, instructors, and administrators at partner campuses have made Nectir an integral part of their daily learning experience. Learn more about how you can get Nectir on your campus here.
Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you’ll like other Enrollify shows too!
Our podcast network is growing by the month and we’ve got a plethora of marketing, admissions, and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks all designed to empower you to be a better higher ed professional. Our shows feature a selection of the industry’s best as your hosts. Learn from Mickey Baines, Zach Busekrus, Jeremy Tiers, Corynn Myers, Jaime Gleason and many more.
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About the Podcast
Transformation has been a hallmark of Jaime's career. In nearly 20 years working in higher education, she been part of four university rebrandings and five website overhauls. She's been hands-on in the development of an integrated marketing communications model at three institutions. As a result, she has gained extensive expertise in brand strategy, recruitment marketing, internal communications, crisis communications, issues management, online innovation, and media relations. She also has in her portfolio government relations and, for two years, she oversaw a public radio station. She is currently the vice president for university communications and chief marketing officer for Old Dominion University, a 23,000-student public R1 research institution in Coastal Virginia. Prior to her current role, she was the vice president and chief communications and marketing officer for Miami University (the one in not-as-sunny Oxford, Ohio). She also served in marketing and media relations leadership roles at Winston-Salem State University (North Carolina), Radford University (Virginia), the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh, and Northwestern Health Sciences University (Minnesota). Her background also includes more than four years as a print journalist and three years working for nonprofits and in nonprofit consulting. She earned my bachelor's degree in journalism from the University of Minnesota and her master's degree in integrated marketing communications from West Virginia University.
Joshua Dodson knows higher ed inside and out. His career experiences as an adjunct instructor, a university director of digital marketing, a web analytics strategist, and a co-founder of a higher ed marketing firm make Josh a powerhouse knowledge resource. Josh’s expertise also makes him a sought-after speaker. He has delivered more than 20 presentations, keynotes, and workshops at national higher ed marketing conferences and taught more than 500 students as a faculty member with HigherEdExperts.
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Nectir is the instant chat tool that engages campus communities and reduces burnout. This community and engagement platform is purpose-built for higher education and connects campus classrooms through conversation. In just 12 months, tens of thousands of students, instructors, and administrators at partner campuses have made Nectir an integral part of their daily learning experience. Learn more about how you can get Nectir on your campus here.
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Host Jaime Hunt engages in candid and insightful conversations with leading minds in the field, exploring not just the nuts and bolts of marketing, but also the diverse and often unexpected challenges and stories that define higher education marketing.
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