Well Implemented - Transition Notes from a Former Higher Ed Staffer Turned CRM Implementation Consultant

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Mickey Baines: Jamie Mickey, we're back. Yes, sir. As we're recording this, we've just dropped an episode, I think it was last week. Um, one our part, one of the two-parter episode with Lynn and Dr. Sas. Mm. Part two is coming out today, actually. Awesome. Um, I have a, uh, post, um, set up about that, so, uh, or maybe I've already posted on that too, but I, we got a lot of good feedback, a lot of questions.

[00:00:41] Just a good, uh, reconnect again with Lynn. It's a great episode where we talk about, um, c r m, should you go single platform for everything or platform with all the other apps plugged in. Yeah. Uh, we have two perspectives on it. Lynn, uh, as a chief it kind of perspective, Dr. Sass from a VP of student affairs and enrollment management [00:01:00] perspective.

[00:01:01] I know both of those folks. Um, Lynn and I have known each other for. Almost 20 years at this point. 

[00:01:06] Jaime Gleason: Like a hundred, I think like a hundred years you 

[00:01:08] Mickey Baines: guys have been. It feels like it. It feels like it. Um, I'm 137 for those who don't know. Um, in a hundred of those years, Linda and I have known each other. He's 92

[00:01:17] Um, but, uh, doc and then Dr. Sass, uh, yeah, that episode, um, she's, uh, a former client of ours. Someone I've always admired because she has. Um, a great vision on what it is they need to be doing at her institution to help students succeed and, which a lot of people have. Yeah. But she has a better ability than most to be able to start to connect that to.

[00:01:42] To technology without knowing all of the details and full ins and outs of her technology. She has enough wherewithal to be able to start connecting the dots so that the folks in positions below her level can then take it a step further. And, and, and not that this is the point of this episode, but I'm [00:02:00] diving in while I'm here.

[00:02:00] While I'm here, um, is. So, so often we, we have a leader who has this vision of what they wanna do, but it's very, it's a hundred thousand foot high vision and the staff are at 20 feet off the ground. Sure. And there's the, they don't have that ability to connect across those levels or dive down deep enough to help the staff really understand.

[00:02:21] And that's the role that we play. Um, and, and I love playing that role. Um, but what we learn in that role is we also have to then teach the person at the top of that vision, because we're not around forever. How do they begin to see and clarify that vision so that they're a thousand feet off the ground mm-hmm.

[00:02:38] and can drop it to the team in a way that they can receive it, understand it, translate it, and put it into action. Um, it happens so often technology and Dr. Sas is really good with that. So, um, yeah, folks, if you haven't listened to those two episodes, take a rewind. , listen to them. Um, good stuff. But we're talking about something else today, Jamie.

[00:02:58] Yeah, 

[00:02:58] Jaime Gleason: no, I just wanna say [00:03:00] that that episode with Dr. Sass, for me, like I've listened to it two or three times already, just because I feel like there's so many little like pieces of that merger between like that high level thinking and how do we. Like how do we disperse the power to the, to the people who need to like understand and give strategic input into like how this works.

[00:03:23] Because it's like, it has to go beyond just one person's vision. It's gotta be like this, like spider web of engagement throughout the campus and like her talk on governance and having, you know, process for introductions of new software. And I like the ideation process. All of it was like, so good. So good.

[00:03:42] So, yeah. Go back if you haven't listened to it, but listen to 

[00:03:45] Mickey Baines: this one too. So, well let's everybody knows this is, this show's called CR Improv. So this is not scripted, but I'm gonna tell you, we just gave the best segue to bring in today's guest and to [00:04:00] connect what we just discussed with what we're gonna talk about today.

[00:04:03] So, First time ever. I have a colleague from Canadian company, one of my teammates on the show, Dan Schenley. Dan, I'm gonna hand it to you in a moment and let you introduce yourself and give your your bio. Um, Dan's been with us for about a year and a half, and what we're gonna talk about today is, is his journey in higher ed that got him into consulting and a little bit about what he is learned in in CRM and technology type consulting.

[00:04:30] What he has enjoyed the most, what he's been most challenged by with the idea that, um, listeners out there, if you are, um, looking at growing your, your technology, you can learn a lot from Dan and what he's been doing with clients. But I think the segue here is, you know, what we do, what we spend a lot of time doing is making that translation, connecting the dots from the high vision to on being on the ground.

[00:04:54] And that's, Um, we, we were joking before we hit recording, um, about the [00:05:00] interview and hiring process of how thorough it was not. But one of the, I what I will say about the con the conversations I got to have with Dan prior to him joining our company was I knew he had that ability to do that translation because that is critical.

[00:05:16] It is critical and, and the way we go about helping schools implement their technology, it, it, it starts. With the ability to make that translation and the translation from a perspective of the person who receives it, who needs, who understands what that person needs to know, as well as from the person who's giving it, to understand how that vision all comes together and needs to be achieved, and Dan is excellent then so.

[00:05:44] Good luck following up, Dan. 

[00:05:45] Dan Shanley: I'll let you introduce yourself. Uh, yeah, talk about, uh, talk about an introduction. I can't really follow up. Um, yeah, thanks, Vicki. Um, no, I, I think that, that, uh, that, that, you know, the last five minutes is exactly what led me to my position at Kennedy and Company. [00:06:00] Um, in, by way of background, I had spent, uh, about 10 years before coming to K.

[00:06:05] On the higher ed side, uh, the first five of those years at, at a, a small sort of, uh, comprehensive university in upstate New York, uh, where I'd been, uh, part or at least on the receiving end of, of three implementations, three different CRMs that just did not go well. Um, and I, I found myself sort of on the end user side of those wondering why, right?

[00:06:23] Why was this continually being forced on us and why did it not work? Um, and I think, you know, taking a step back, you know, I was, I was five years into higher ed at that point, it was pretty clear to me. None of the folks that we're implementing had asked us right at the level of the users that were going to be using this tool, what did we need?

[00:06:41] How did we need it to work? Um, how did, how did our thoughts, our perspective, our job, actually come into this system? Um, and so, We, we got a little bit closer, I think CRM number three stuck around, uh, for, for several years after I left that institution, uh, because we had a little bit more involvement. I was actually a [00:07:00] sort of an end user on the implementation team, which was a new thing.

[00:07:03] Um, it was, it was, you know, very top down prior to that. Um, and then about five years after I, I started at that institution, had an opportunity. Um, I saw a new job description, uh, one that I hadn't seen before, uh, at Colgate University, uh, which was a little bit down the road from where I lived. For a C R M administrator, that was a title that I wasn't totally familiar with, but the job description resonated.

[00:07:25] Um, they were looking for somebody to come in and lead the implementation with, with outside perspective. Um, that could really bring all of the users together, um, and, and see what was the best tool. But also make that tool fit, uh, not only for the leadership of the administration, but for the people that were gonna have their hands on the keyboard in the tool every day.

[00:07:44] Um, and that was, that was really it for me. Uh, the first couple years I was at Colgate. It was, it was to bring slate into the team. Uh, it was to ask why. Um, and when you're at a, a 200 year old institution being that new face that asks why a lot, uh, that will get you some. Um, [00:08:00] and, and when you push back on the, well, that's just what we do, uh, at Colgate.

[00:08:03] Um, you know, I, I had a leadership team that was so, uh, supportive of me doing that and pushing back on those things. Uh, and I think that's what resulted in, in, that's what led to the result that we had there, which was, was a hugely successful implementation that, uh, really allowed us. To set the institution up for, uh, the growth that it's experienced in the last couple years.

[00:08:22] Uh, we were an institution that had regularly gotten, uh, 8,000 applications. In the last three years, they've been near 20,000. Um, and I, I'm not gonna certainly take near full credit for that. It was a lot of things, but, but having a system in place that could support not only that high level strategy. , but also the end users that needed to be able to implement it.

[00:08:41] Um, having the marriage of both of those things, I think was critical. And, um, being able to be part of that, uh, led me to believe that there was an opportunity to do that at more places. Um, I was sharing with the guys earlier, I, I'm the type of person that that needs change every couple years. Um, and so coming to a role where I could, I could be that person, I could also [00:09:00] continue to be learning.

[00:09:01] Um, I had been traditionally four year undergrad institutions, uh, for my whole career. And I wanted to see what else was out there. Uh, so to be able to be that facilitator, um, and with, with different types of institutions, with different teams, with different challenges, I think was the thing that was most appealing to me.

[00:09:15] About, about joining K and Co, um, and also joining a team that, that had a similar mindset. Um, Mickey, I think our conversations, um, led me to take the leap of faith that I did. I remember my wife asking, I was trying to tell her about the job, tell her about the position, and I think at one point she asked, are we gonna lose our house if this goes badly?

[00:09:34] Um, and I said, I don't think so. I think this will work. Um, and it was a leap of faith, but, but it's certainly what I'm glad I tooked. 

[00:09:42] Jaime Gleason: I think that's actually probably, uh, you know, ironically, Dan, that's probably a question that people deal with when they move from the, that, you know, kind of stability of the academy, right.

[00:09:55] To what feels like. I think when you're, when you're kind of like in that, you know, [00:10:00] isolation bubble of being at an academic institution with all the heritage and you know, Ironically, it's like you think about, it's like this, you know, schools aren't going anywhere and probably the Colgate's not going anywhere, right?

[00:10:12] Like I get that. But like, it's funny to think now that like there are so many more higher ed institutions that might find themselves on the brink of closure at, whereas, you know, companies like the ones that we are employed by maybe in a little bit more of. At the very least in this position to move and change, which is, this is a completely off topic discussion, but I think my wife asked me the same question when I went and started working for Capture higher ed.

[00:10:40] It's like, Is this gonna be okay? Like right, is this, this? And honestly, Jamie, you, you, you probably weren't sure, right? Yeah, it's right. Hundred percent. It's like, I think it's gonna be fine. Like it feels like it's gonna be fine. But like you back then, especially, you know, like if we, I think even the last three or four years have kind of changed the calculus of like, you know, [00:11:00] what's it mean to be okay?

[00:11:01] Kind of thing. Like, I feel like it's an interesting, that's an interesting, we could noodle on that topic as a, like, you know, we've had a few of these, like coming from the dark side to the, or coming to the dark side, um, of being a vendor. And I think that there is, you know, like what are the questions that you ask yourself as, as a person who kind of moves from the academy over to this like darker side.

[00:11:23] But anyway, Dan, great to have you here and. I, I, I couldn't agree more with like, some of the, the mindsets that you're bringing. And that question, just like threw a light bulb on in my head. 

[00:11:33] Mickey Baines: Hey, I know you're deeply engaged with this conversation, but we're gonna pause just for a moment, for an important word from our sponsors.

[00:11:44] Zach Busekrus: All righty. We're gonna play a game, guys. Okay. So first and foremost, get a pen, get a paper, pull out your notes, app on your phone, whatever it might be. Okay? Got it. Great. All right. What keywords does your website currently rank for? Take a couple seconds, [00:12:00] right? 1, 2, 3, 4. I give you a few, not just a couple.

[00:12:04] What doesn't it rank for that you think it should rank for? Okay. 1, 2, 3, 4. Now, what are a few keyword opportunities that you could be winning on if you just simply tweaked some of your existing website? Copy. Got it. Okay. How'd you do? Ooh. Not so hot. Not sure what you can, what you're currently ranking for or not sure what you could be ranking for.

[00:12:27] Well, that's okay because our friends at DD Agency want to help you answer all of these questions. DD Agency is a higher ed specific marketing technology agency that has conducted countless SEO audits for colleges and universities across the country. In these audits, they detail where you currently.

[00:12:43] What you could be ranking for, exactly how copies should be tweaked on a website, pages and so much more. If this sounds like something that you could benefit from, give the guys a dag agency a ping and be sure to mention that enroll I sent you to claim a 10% discount on [00:13:00] any of their SEO offerings. So head on over to enroll five.org.

[00:13:04] Slash DDA SEO O. That's DDA as in DD Agency seo. Or simply follow the link in the show notes below that will guarantee you get a 10% discount off of your audit. Alright, add on number to enroll five.org/dd SEO o, or simply Google DD Agency. Find DD agency's website and be sure to mention that you heard about them through enroll I when you request your audit.

[00:13:28] All right, folks, back to the show.

[00:13:34] Mickey Baines: You mentioned Dan, the, the asking why. Um, and, and I think it's, it is important I think as folks listen, especially if you oversee others to, to allow and, and push and, and promote that, that questioning, not everyone's gonna ask. And I, and I'll say that. Point that out specifically not, it's okay if folks aren't [00:14:00] asking why, but if you're asking why, that's just demonstrating that level of curiosity, um, in you and, and for us.

[00:14:08] And the moment of what we really needed was the curiosity we needed to build upon that, and we needed curiosity and so, As an interviewer, I, I don't, I, I, I would, I don't, can't imagine I would have asked you, Dan a, about it. Um, and I, cause I typically don't just say, tell me about, you know, your, your ability to be curious.

[00:14:29] I just ask other questions to see where you go with them. To understand what are those natural instincts and curiosity is one of them. And I think that's important as you think about your team in, in growing your own team, um, you know, encouraging that if someone's asking why, um, if someone's asking how, um, or if someone's saying, can I allowing that?

[00:14:49] Cause those are where their interests are, uh, where their instincts are. And allowing and encouraging that is what really allows people to grow in bloom. Um, [00:15:00] and, and, and it leads to. Bigger opportunities maybe at your own institution. Not always, but that's okay. And I think Dan, that, that having that leadership allow you, that ability helped you expand how you become more curious.

[00:15:15] It was huge when we met and talked was the factor, not the only, but it was critical factor. Um, you could have been successful without that here, but in that moment, what basically, you know, when we had that conversation to say, Dan is right for us right now. We, this is the person we need on our team because we needed that.

[00:15:35] I didn't go into that job search thinking, I gotta find the most curious person. But I had already, you know, I'm a, I'm a big reflection person, but take a lot of notes and I had been talking a lot about curiosity, um, at that time, and I still talk about, but at the time we needed it more. Now we have a more people that have that, that ability to be curious and to push us.

[00:15:52] Um, so I, you know, that when you said that just really resonated with me. So I, I want us to talk a little bit about. Um, [00:16:00] life as a consultant, obviously you, you talked about change and, and getting to work with, um, new things. I, I think you get that, and this is, you know, I'm, I'm putting you on the spot a little bit here.

[00:16:10] Um, but you know, I think you get that as a consultant opportunity to work on different things, um, to move from project to project, which is something by the way, I actually liked and why I think consulting was right for me so that I could have that change, um, that I like to have. Um, but you know, I. So tell me about, about life as a consultant.

[00:16:29] When you think about having to make that change and going from project to project, uh, and then maybe throw in, you know, what are some of the, the surprising things you've learned once you got a chance to see multiple institutions? 

[00:16:43] Dan Shanley: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, for, for one, there's that lifestyle change.

[00:16:46] Uh, Jamie, you pointed out sort of just the, the, the regimented stature of, of the academy and having policies for everything and an HR office that meets with you, you know, once a month and all of these things. And, and that doesn't exist here. And, and maybe some [00:17:00] other companies are a little bit different.

[00:17:01] Right. But that's, that was that nimbleness, that sort of scrappiness I think is, is something that was. Uh, I didn't know was missing from my life. Um, but, but truly was, um, so that, that lifestyle change of, um, you know, my commute going from a, from an hour commute to, you know, 10 steps down the hall, um, you know, the hours changing from, uh, you know, the nine to five to, you know, what the heck time zone is the UK in and how am I gonna structure my day so that I can be there?

[00:17:27] And then in California, um, all in one day. That's, that's wild, right? For somebody that just always went to work and went home. Uh, not that I didn't bring work home, um, but I, I was never in a different time zone, uh, you know, multiple times throughout the day, uh, you know, in the virtual world as I think, you know, added some, some interesting things to that as well.

[00:17:44] So there's those lifestyle changes. Um, there is also just the, the, the ever. Those of us in higher ed, I think we have a, a natural, a a natural, we're natural learners, right? We, we are curious, we're, we want to always be learning something. And uh, and [00:18:00] for me it was, it was the different types of institutions.

[00:18:02] And I think that that sort of goes to your second question, Vicki, about some of the, some of the light bulb moments or the challenges, um, coming from the traditional four year environment, you know, There's different institutions, but at the end of the day, you know, we're all, you know, small class size, personal attention.

[00:18:16] Right. How many different ways can, can you spell that out? When I started to see what some of these grad schools are doing, um, the way that they're recruiting folks in very different stages of their lives, you know, for several years at a time that was eye-opening to me. I. . Um, the other one that I think doesn't get nearly enough credit are those two year schools, two year open access institutions.

[00:18:33] Um, they are doing, they are doing some work, uh, to, to not only bring their classes in, but for very different populations. Um, and it, and it certainly poses some challenges for technology. Um, the technology, I think that was largely developed to, to sort of fit that really cyclical, really repetitive, you know, nature of four year undergrad recruiting.

[00:18:54] Is certainly challenged, um, by, by the timeline, by the types of roles that are played in the [00:19:00] size of the teams that community colleges are, are often, you know, challenged to work with. You've got an admission office with two or three people that are doing advising, processing applications, recruitment, um, and they are having people's, uh, you know, Walk in their door two days after classes start saying, how do I end up in a classroom this afternoon?

[00:19:18] Um, you know, the technology wasn't really built to do that. It wasn't built to come in and, uh, you know, these are, these are systems that are built to nurture folks over a long period of time and build affinity. What do you do when you've got a student that walks in at 10:00 AM and says, I want to be in a classroom at 3:00 PM.

[00:19:33] So I think those challenges have been really, really eye-opening to me. And, uh, and trying to think differently, you know, from, from the 10 years that I spent in a, in a very programmatic recruitment cycle, uh, to be able to, to not, not, you know, uh, only solve for that, but to have that be a factor. Um, you know, that, that, that has kept me on my toes, um, and was something that I wouldn't have gotten if I had stayed in the original 

[00:19:57] Mickey Baines: career path.

[00:19:58] So I, I love that [00:20:00] conversation in the i, in the insight into the different types of institutions. Um, so I'm trying to think of how to word this question. Um, the, you know, in our model, and we've talked about this on the podcast a little bit, this, this thought of, of growth on CRM from 1 0 1 to, to 2, 3, 4. In your mind, what do you think are some of the foundational blocks?

[00:20:27] Folks need to have in place to, to make that scale happen and, and understand those blocks may be different between 1 0 1 to 2 0 1, 2 and three and so forth. You know, um, a lot of our clients, um, majority of them are at a, at this 1 0 1 level, you think about, you know, them and some of the building blocks they need to have in place to grow.

[00:20:47] What do you think those are? Yeah, 

[00:20:49] Dan Shanley: I think, you know, it's, it's sort of, um, It's the same type thing. I would, it's the same answer I would give if somebody says, you know, how can I be successful? If we're bringing a [00:21:00] consultant on, I think a lot of institutions, um, sort of say, let's bring the consultant in and they'll sell everything, right?

[00:21:05] Uh, the, they'll, they'll be somebody that we can sort of pawn this responsibility off on. Um, those challenge, those, those projects are challenging, right? If you don't have sort of the, the foundation in place. Um, and I think that's something I would share with any, with any, uh, institution that says, you know, are we at the point where we need to bring some help in for, for either this implementation or this growth project?

[00:21:25] Um, spending that time to really do some soul searching and, and understand your processes. I think a lot of times, again, it comes back to bringing those end users into the conversation. Um, the folks that are making the hiring, uh, firing decisions for, for consultants. aren't necessarily the process experts.

[00:21:41] Um, you know, and so making sure that those folks are in the conversation or in the room, um, and, and trying to do some of that discovery before you're on the clock for a consultant, uh, it's gonna save you some time. It's gonna save you some money, frankly, you know, to try and understand what those processes are, get that documentation together and get everybody on board if you don't have your full [00:22:00] team bought into this idea of, of where we're going in the next year.

[00:22:04] Um, I think those conversations too often happen at a level, uh, that doesn't include the folks that, that it needs to. Um, and that doesn't mean that you have to, you know, have a, have a round table for every single employee that's gonna take a full day. Um, but it does require the leadership to understand those roles and how those roles, I think, fit into what that vision or what that strategy is.

[00:22:25] Um, as consultants, I think, you know, where we come in to implement a software or bring a new technology on, we end up doing a lot of that. Um, and, and that may be, you know, I think for some companies they would say that's just flatly out of scope. We don't do that. And I think it comes back to that, that curiosity piece, because we need to help have that in place.

[00:22:42] So we need to have that, um, that structure and that buy-in. Of everybody top to bottom in the organization before we can even introduce, you know, um, this, this new piece of the technology or this new component. Um, if we're not all aligned on that vision, we're not all aligned on that strategy and how I fit into [00:23:00] that.

[00:23:00] As somebody that comes in and. Processes, applications each morning, or somebody that makes the admission decision or somebody that's building the strategic plan. If we don't have all of those pieces connected, um, number one, the project's going to be delayed. Uh, the project will take longer because we still have to do that organization.

[00:23:15] We still have to, to get that piece aligned. Um, and number two, you know, you're, you're starting that buy-in conversation before you even introduce the consultant or you even introduce the, the project. Um, When we were at Colgate's, uh, we, we had a slate party. We bought a cake. Um, and we said, you know, we're gonna, we're, this was an institution that again, had gone through a, a pretty rough, uh, implementation of their, their previous c r m.

[00:23:38] There was a lot of burnout, there was a lot of negative energy. Um, and we said, let's have everybody in this room. Let's have a cake and let's say this is gonna be tough. Let's acknowledge this. This is not gonna be a fun process, you're. Gonna, you're gonna enjoy some things. We're gonna try and get you some, some early wins.

[00:23:53] Um, but there's a lot of effort that's gonna be involved here, required here of everybody on this team. Um, and I think [00:24:00] acknowledging that, uh, will set an institution up for growth, uh, along the way, um, coming in and saying, Hey, this is gonna be great. We'll have this ready in six months and your life's gonna be perfect forever.

[00:24:10] Um, I think that's the message a lot of people get, uh, when we're bringing new ins, new, new software in. Um, and, and flatly it's the wrong message. Um, you know, I think acknowledging those challenges upfront and getting everybody bought into those challenges will, will go a long way towards helping folks be able to.

[00:24:26] Foster a change ready environment, uh, an environment that's ready and gonna be supportive of growth. 

[00:24:31] Jaime Gleason: Yeah, I, uh, you, we've done a few different episodes about that. You know, the, the false allure of one thing fixing all things. And unfortunately, I think, you know, higher ed falls, prey so many times to this as a, uh, as like the, the silver bullet, right?

[00:24:49] The magic bullet of. Um, how can we, in one fell swoop, fix all the problems that we have and we think, oh, well this new piece of software is the, the next [00:25:00] Messiah, or this new, you know, tracking code is the, is the thing that we have to have and this'll fix all our woes. In reality, I think the, the key is like, um, the key is that we have to implement to the solution, and that implementation isn't usually about one single thing, it's about the implementation.

[00:25:21] Maybe of a piece of software, but also the implementation of a mindset and also the implementation of a, of a team and all, you know, there's like, there's all of these like, um, disparate factors that, that, that create this, you know, enrollment, you know, cocktail that we have. And, uh, I, I, I am always profoundly struck by how we look for an easy solution.

[00:25:49] To what is a very complicated, like higher ed is complicated, right? Higher ed has to do. Emotions and money and futures [00:26:00] and pasts and like all of the things that humanity has like wrapped up in so many things. And it's like, and yet we look for like one thing to fix that. It's like, why, why would we think that we could do that?

[00:26:12] Like , 

[00:26:13] Dan Shanley: it's the old iceberg model, right? We're making decisions based on what we can see above the water and it's, it's everything below the water that is, um, you. Absolutely critical. It's, it's what will either sink the ship, , no pun intended, or it's what will allow that iceberg to, to grow. 

[00:26:28] Mickey Baines: I'm gonna ask you to be a futurist, Dan.

[00:26:30] Dan Shanley: It's an uncomfortable place for me, Mickey. I am, I am very much a realist. . 

[00:26:35] Mickey Baines: Alright, well that's good. But we gotta, we gotta step 

[00:26:37] Jaime Gleason: outta our comfort zones. Uh, I think you actually, in order to answer the question, then once he poses that you're gonna, you might have to close your eyes. 

[00:26:43] Mickey Baines: That might help . Um, so, um, you're a, um, An enrollment leader, uh, on campus, um, you, you know, that you need to use technology to convert [00:27:00] more, uh, prospects into applicants.

[00:27:04] What type of functionality should you add to your c r m that will best enable that? Speaking of the silver bullet, so, um, , how we don't wanna do it. Which one would you choose? Oh, God. Chat bots are live. 

[00:27:21] Dan Shanley: Uh, it's a combination, a bot with escalation there. You heard it. Um, 

[00:27:26] Jaime Gleason: all right, let's just repeat for the listeners here.

[00:27:28] You just said if you had to pick one thing to add to your c r m, add to your c r m 

[00:27:34] Mickey Baines: with, with the idea that it's going to help convert prospects to applicants. Yeah. Huh. So, and, and so let, and so I think. Given where what we were just talking about and this shift, this mm-hmm. we're talking about there's no silver bullet.

[00:27:48] Yeah. So here's the thing, that's not the silver bullet, because we took that down into more specificity and, and I always like to say we are not talking about using crm. Tools or technology for [00:28:00] the sake of the technology. Mm-hmm. is what does the technology do to support our strategy and tactics, which we have to execute to achieve a goal?

[00:28:08] And, 

[00:28:09] Dan Shanley: and, and I think, let's unpack that chat bot, right? Yep. That can't exist without people that know how to, how to input, change the inputs, right. Or people that can be responsive to an escalation request. That means you're gonna have to have. Working at hours that they're not used to working. That means you have to have a tool that can collect that data and aggregate that in your C rm.

[00:28:28] So yes, you can go by a chat bot if you don't have all of those other things. A staff ready to work at seven o'clock at night, a team that understands the questions that come into the frontline, to the phone, to the emails that can put those inputs in, and a CRM that's well built and ready to handle the amount of data that can aggregate that chatbot will fail every time.

[00:28:47] Yeah, 

[00:28:48] Jaime Gleason: I, I actually like that as a choice because it is a, it's a perfect mix of, you know, the, the automation that machines can give for us, but also that human [00:29:00] factor, which I feel like we crave. And you know, honestly, within a chatbot you could also. You could build that to be a lead scoring tool that then populates direct mail like you could.

[00:29:10] Mickey Baines: So, but it can't do that if you don't do all those things at Daniel, right? Oh, a hundred percent. 

[00:29:14] Jaime Gleason: Totally agree. So you think about 

[00:29:16] Mickey Baines: that automation. Yep. Um, As we're recording this, I'll say I'm doing a webinar later today and I've got a slide that that visualizes this. But as you think about this fully automated world and you think about this fully human, manual focused world, yeah.

[00:29:29] You don't go from one to the other. There are actually two steps. Sure. And so you go from this fully human, um, manual world to a human world supported by technology to a computer, automated world supported by humans. To a fully automated piece. And so that's a circle. You don't, right? And so it is got, that's the steps you have to go.

[00:29:49] Um, and so the humans, they have to be involved. They're involved in three of the four stages of that to get to that world. And people want to be at the end, but they don't understand all those other steps [00:30:00] and, and the intricacies of those steps once you understand the steps, but then you gotta understand what does that really mean?

[00:30:04] Yeah. So like when you're thinking about live chat, as Dan mentioned, you've got staff that had to be there at seven. That may not be the same staff that you normally use, engaging with students. Now, that means those staff now have to be trained to engage, to know how to answer, to know how to interpret questions, um, and, and to, to, to make those resolutions and solve.

[00:30:22] Because if they can't solve anything but they're chatting, that doesn't help the people that are asking for help. Yeah. Uh, and so if, if all they're there is to say, oh, I'm sorry. I can't help you. I'm glad to escalate till tomorrow, then you're gonna lose the function. People won't adopt the chat. The users that have questions won't continue to use it.

[00:30:37] Um, so there's that level of training that have to be done. Um, and so those are like key components. Of this that have to then be thought through bots. If you start your bot with 50 questions, that's not enough questions for it to provide use. And if it doesn't provide use, people don't continue to use it.

[00:30:54] If you want to go predictive and you think bots are gonna be the way to help you understand that, you need to have a a, a base of [00:31:00] questions and you have to figure out how do we add questions to it over time? Yeah. When's the right time to evaluate? So all of these pieces go in it to actually make it work.

[00:31:08] Excellent point, Dan. Good choice. I love your choice. Um, I probably would choose that. Um, 

[00:31:16] Jaime Gleason: does he win prize, Mickey? I think. What's that? He win the prize. I think he wins the. 

[00:31:20] Mickey Baines: He does , 

[00:31:22] Dan Shanley: don't answer. My answer to that is, is what tool do I use in my world outside of higher ed, right? Yeah. What is the tool that's allowed me to most effectively get what I need out of a company, get what I need out of, uh, you know, customer service interaction, right?

[00:31:35] Yeah. I want that ability to be, to have access to somebody to get what I need quickly, and if I can't get what I need quickly point me in the direction of somebody that can help me. Yeah. I 

[00:31:45] Jaime Gleason: would love to, uh, you know, a follow up question of that would be, I would love to hear how you feel when chatbots don't respond quickly or they take you into a queue that seems to be like infinitely long.

[00:31:55] Cuz that's where I feel like yeah, that's where the technology has gone off the rails and it [00:32:00] actually, like, it's not, it's not the, um, It's not exactly delivering on how it's supposed to deliver, when it's like, when it puts you down, you take a 

[00:32:09] Dan Shanley: neutral customer service experience and you turn it into a negative one.

[00:32:12] Yeah. Really quickly. Yep. Um, and that's why I've said no. When I was, when I was at Colgate, we were approached by two different chatbots. I said no to each of them because we couldn't staff it, uh, at the time that we knew students were going to need it. We weren't built up to a place to have student workers or staff, uh, beyond from, you know, six to 10 o'clock at night Easter time.

[00:32:31] Um, and if you can't do that, uh, you're, you're actually risking a negative experience. Totally. 

[00:32:37] Mickey Baines: How do I handle it? Jimmy? I bail. 

[00:32:39] Jaime Gleason: Oh, I do too. I hate him. I can't stand it like when I use a chat. I want, like, to me it's like, it's like slack. If, if they're not back within, you know, a, a very short amount of time, and I even give it a less of a window than Slack.

[00:32:52] It's like I need to have, like, the reason I'm on a chat is because I want that to be quick and I want, I want it to be responsive. But if it's like, [00:33:00] oh, you're like 10 minute you are at a 10 minute queue or whatever on the chat, it's like I'm out. Like, sorry, I don't have time for that. Yep. Yeah, I would've made a phone call.

[00:33:08] If that were the case, I would've called. Well, you know, 

[00:33:10] Mickey Baines: so if it is, if it's live for sure, then I think then they should do, like American Airline says this, and I know other people do it as well. You know, like we'll call you back when it's your time online. Yeah, for 

[00:33:20] Jaime Gleason: sure. I 

[00:33:21] Mickey Baines: like that line. Your estimated wait time is.

[00:33:24] Yep. You know, hundred percent. Those are other things. Now figuring out estimated wait. Another piece of growth, cuz you may not always know that. You've gotta understand your volume, how quickly you take resolve issues. Yeah. All those things matter. And so, you know, it, it, that's another part of scaling. But yeah, getting that dimension to it I think is, is important.

[00:33:41] I, cuz I will bail. I don't hang out and just waiting because then you gotta leave an app open so you can actually see that the chat's there. Oh. 

[00:33:48] Jaime Gleason: And then it gets lost. Yeah. 

[00:33:50] Mickey Baines: No, no, no, no. 

[00:33:51] Dan Shanley: Time is valuable. Uh, time is valuable for everybody and you know, if the company is not, if the company's willing to waste my time and not theirs.

[00:33:57] Yeah. Um, I'm gonna bail. Yep. [00:34:00] 

[00:34:00] Mickey Baines: So, well, I think this has been a very, uh, fruitful conversation. Um, Dan, I hope you enjoyed, uh, being here. Any, any words of wisdom to our, to our listeners. That's another episode I left that wide open. You can 

[00:34:14] Dan Shanley: take that. That's another episode when you're not here. , . No, I I think it's, you know, be, be really thoughtful.

[00:34:21] I think consultants can play an incredible role. Uh, when I was. Telling a couple of friends that I was becoming a consultant, they said, but you hated consultants. You always said consultants were the people that, you know, couldn't hack it in the real world. Um, and, and it depends on the consultant, right?

[00:34:35] Um, because we had, we had had some bad ones. Uh, we had some that were in it for the profits and were in it to check boxes off a list. And they weren't curious and they didn't, they weren't. Partners. Yeah. Um, and that's what I love about Kennedy and Company is, is we are a team that can be partners. So whether it's us, whether it's anybody else, look for a firm, look for a person that is going to be that partner with you, that's gonna care that you're actually successful long after that invoice, uh, stops coming.

[00:34:59] Yeah. 

[00:34:59] Mickey Baines: [00:35:00] Absolutely. Well, Dan, thank you for joining us. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for having me guys. Yeah. Um, Jamie? Yes. Final thoughts, 

[00:35:10] Jaime Gleason: final thoughts for me Are. , you know what? Those in the academy listening in, if this episode does nothing else, like recognize the complexity of the situation and as we even, even though we're maybe our month or six weeks into 2023, let's just commit ourselves to implementing in a focused manner that which is the most important.

[00:35:37] So don't try to do all things, but try to do the things that you're going to do. 

[00:35:42] Dan Shanley: To the fullest. Oh, look at that. Well said. 

[00:35:48] Mickey Baines: That's one. We have Jamie here, Dan, um, 

[00:35:50] Jaime Gleason: that, and I like to make off-color jokes on occasion, 

[00:35:54] Mickey Baines: so . Oh, man. Awesome. Well, everyone, thank you for listening to another episode [00:36:00] of CR Improv.

[00:36:01] Until next time, hopefully we'll see you out at some conference. I don't know, Jamie, if you'll be out on the road. I've got webinars. Hopefully I'll meet some of you through our webinars and then I know in the spring we've got several events, so I look forward to hopefully meeting more people out there.[00:37:00] 

[00:37:31] Zach Busekrus: Hey all, Zach, you're from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of crmprov. If you liked this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leaving a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.

[00:37:47] Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam-packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better [00:38:00] higher ed professional. But Enrollify is far more than just a podcast network.

[00:38:05] Enrollify is where higher ed comes to learn new marketing skills, discover new products and services, and find their next job. We're a growing learning community of 4,000 members, and we love to welcome you into the fold. You can access our free blog, articles, newsletters, e-courses, and more, or purchase our master course on how to market a university with Terry Flannery at enrollify.org.

[00:38:26] We look forward to meeting you soon and welcoming you into the community. Again, you can subscribe for free at enrollify.org.