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Expanding the Data-Driven Approach in an Constrained Optimization Atmosphere
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Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Jamie Gleason: I don't think we've ever gotten into a situation where we didn't have anything to talk about. Mickey.
[00:00:04] Mickey Baines: I think we've already demonstrated that unless you wanna just throw Rich under the bus and let him lead us in. Well let the guest intro the show.
[00:00:29] Jamie Gleason: Mickey, we're back episode. I don't know what thanks for, uh, thanks for rejoining the podcast of CR Improv. It's good to enjoy winter
[00:00:38] Mickey Baines: together. Did we have a winter? I mean, I mean, I mean, one could argue 50, 60, 70 degrees in February in Penn. Is not
[00:00:52] Jamie Gleason: a winter. Yeah. Yeah. I, well, it did snow last night, so I'm kind of counting last night as winter.
[00:00:58] Yep. There you go. That's pretty much legend. [00:01:00] Pretty much. That was the only time I got to drive in snow. All, all, actually, for the last two years. I think. Maybe there was a little bit last year, but yeah, as a native upside. Oh,
[00:01:10] Mickey Baines: I didn't in snow.
[00:01:10] Jamie Gleason: Snow, I got sleet and we got, oh yeah, we got like two inches of snow, but it was gone by this morning, so.
[00:01:18] Anyway, it's good to be back. I know. Yeah. I'm gonna move up north so then I can actually enjoy snow back to my homeland. Big cabin. Yeah, I have one. We'll talk about that later. Uh, it's good to be back. Uh, we have a great guest with us today. We're gonna talk about, I mean, already in the pre-recording recording, which no one who is listening now has probably heard much of, unless maybe there was a funny joke that we made.
[00:01:48] That was the intro to the episode. But we've had some interesting conversations already about spreadsheets, about old software from the nineties and [00:02:00] a, a plethora of other topics. Uh, but we have with us today. Koch, and I think I got the last name, pronunciation right. Um, we are, we're really excited to have Rich with us.
[00:02:12] Uh, he's got like a lot of a, a diverse set of skills and experience that we're really gonna, uh, that we're gonna kind of lean into as we talk about, of course, what we talk about here, data, c r m, technology, producing growth, these are all things that very much enliven him. Rich, welcome to the show. Thank
[00:02:31] Rich Kochman: you so much.
[00:02:31] It's great to be, So,
[00:02:34] Mickey Baines: so I was just gonna say, rich, we've known each other for. Five years. Six. Yeah, five, six years. We, we met at a conference, uh, somewhere in the 20 teens, the later 20 teens pre pandemic back when we could travel. Um, um, one of wanted travel. Yes. One of my colleagues at Canadian company introduced us.
[00:02:57] We got to sit down and have a couple [00:03:00] conversations. Um, it was very apparent then. Knew what he was talking about. Um, he knows this space really well. And I'll, rich, I'll let you, I'll turn it to you in just a moment to kind of share your background, but, um, You know, and then we just reconnected again, uh, this, this January and, um, and talked, and I, you know, it just reminded me then Rich, like we gotta have you on this show.
[00:03:25] Um, you, you're, you're in the weeds, um, with some colleges, universities, um, you're diving into data, you're diving into to c R M. You may not be inside the crm, but you know what needs to happen to, for that CRM to function properly. Um, and that's what we. Schools to hear. We want them to generate these ideas, to build their own plans, to understand for themselves what they need to be doing to grow.
[00:03:50] Um, and you have that, you have that magic sauce, the, the, all the ingredients there to put together. So, so I'll, I'll pass the baton to your rich. [00:04:00] Tell us what you've done in your career that's helped. You know what.
[00:04:03] Rich Kochman: Sure. Uh, thanks so much for that introduction. Um, and thanks also for, for, uh, having me on the show on behalf of both I, I said this earlier, but on behalf of both myself and my wife, who yesterday was asking me what this podcast was going to be about and I told her it was all about CRMs and data and analytics and reporting and how excited I was to do, and she was just like, why do you have this outlet?
[00:04:28] Uh, it changed her from, from having to listen to me. So thank you for that introduction. Um, my path into crm, it's not, um, it, it's sort of a winding path and I've, I've done a lot of things that, that I'll share and I think once you hear it, it'll make sense, like how and why I work in this world. Um, the first 15 years or so in MyCareer, various forms of data-driven business management, I actually started off as a marketing analyst.
[00:04:57] Um, For a company that was [00:05:00] doing a lot of, uh, B2C marketing. Um, so there was lots and lots of data. There were lots of things to analyze. Um, as that marketer or as the analyst, I was using data and databases all the time. Um, I was producing. Reports for management. I was also doing deeper ad hoc analytics, et cetera.
[00:05:21] Um, and in those 15 years, it's sort of, I used that to leverage into a lot of other things, including product management, pricing, pricing optimization. Again, very sort of data heavy. Um, but 11 or 12 years ago, I pivoted firmly into, uh, education and more specifically higher education and, and skills-based training.
[00:05:40] Um, I don't do too much in K-12. I came to it by way of, um, it was ev people can see this on my LinkedIn profile, it was e v P of Marketing and Analytics, Fortu U um, in their early years. Uh, and, and in some of the early really strong growth years, uh, I also started there in enrollment [00:06:00] operations team. Um, and, and the idea was, and this is where I got even deeper into CRMs, but the idea was I was, I was running this marketing and analytics shop and.
[00:06:11] You know, we're always running this sort of constrained optimization. You have a finite amount of budget, you have an infinite number of places you can put that money. It gets even more complex when you think about their sort of different levels of return with different levels of investing in in each of these channels.
[00:06:27] So we're always running this constrained optimization. My team's job was sort of done once inquiries came in and they were handed off to admissions teams, enrollment teams. My. Success was measured based on how many students we got. Mm-hmm. So it was one of these classic, like I had all of the responsibility for half of the goal, uh, that I would sort of, I, I had half the responsibility in none of the authority, I guess we could call it.
[00:06:54] So what I started seeing was some of the admissions teams [00:07:00] were taking what I thought were really good leads, really good inquiries, uh, that I was driving and we were just not getting student. Before you think this is a marketing versus sales conversation, cuz it's not. There was another team for whom I was not doing a good job of, of bringing in high quality inquiries.
[00:07:18] I just, I knew it, I knew the sources that I was getting them from, and yet this team was turning people into students. They, they had the secret sauce. So I got really interested in what they were doing. Um, and as I learned more about what they were doing and how all four or five or six of these, uh, different admissions teams had, Different instances of Salesforce.
[00:07:38] So they have different data, they have different processes. I became really, really fixated on how do we standardize and do a better job with our processes, with standardizing platforms, and then also using data and analytics to make people more efficient and productive and, and in turn never really losing sight of.[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] There are applicants on the other side that are looking to have a good experie. How do we make sure all of this works together? So, sorry, I already took sort of a A C R M related detour here if I did that. Um, getting back to my career history, spent some time as the Chief Marketing officer at General Assembly, which is a coding bootcamp.
[00:08:20] Um, and then for the last seven or eight years, I've had my own consulting practice all within kind of the business side of education. Um, those sectors that I mentioned before, higher ed continuing ed, my clients are c. Really helping with growth strategies and sustainable growth strategies. So again, a lot of marketing, sales, sales optimization, use of data.
[00:08:41] Some of my clients are universities for whom I do a lot of the same things. The reason that I said I kind of feel like I've had a, a strange path into c r M is I didn't start off as a technologist. I didn't start off working in any sort of admissions floor or anything like [00:09:00] that. I started off as an analyst and as an analyst.
[00:09:03] What I, I think to be interesting is I knew what the result had to be. You know, there's that concept start with the end in mind and I would start thinking about, well, what reports do I need? What data do I need? How do I need it organized in order to run analysis, uh, and get better insights and think that all the way back to how is the data being.
[00:09:26] I think having that holistic point of view has served me really well. When it comes to CRMs, I think it's a lot more complex. There's a lot more transactional things happening and you have to be more and more sophisticated about how you stored and why you stored and how it's going to be used. Um, but I think that it's, it's in some ways a very natural kind of progression cuz it's a lot of the same thought processes.
[00:09:50] Mm-hmm.
[00:09:52] Mickey Baines: Uh, so a lot goes through my mind, but I'm, and I'm going to even segue for a moment based on what one of the comments you just said, [00:10:00] um, because you didn't start as a technologist, right? Either. Did I, I always, and I always tell folks, you know, I'm, I'm a technologist, Byre, but I'm enroll. I, I'm an enrollment manager by heart.
[00:10:10] That's, that's where I started and it just kind of hit me. We were talking. Free show recording, uh, about, um, being seasoned. All three of us have varying levels of season, uh, behind us, and I don't think, well, I don't, I don't believe any of the folks that I come across in my work, either. Other firms that do what we do at schools, universities started as a technologist.
[00:10:36] When it comes to crm, because when we started that, that didn't exist. Mm-hmm. At least not in higher ed. In a form that could be used by an end user. Right. Um, whereas the people behind us, I think we're at a point where there are some people that can say, I started. As the technologist in c r m. Yeah. Uh, because it's now been around and so it's, it'll be, to me, it just, [00:11:00] it's interesting in thinking about how you go about doing your work, rich, because you started before that technology existed in your thinking of data first.
[00:11:07] Yeah. Versus starting with the technology, having that first and data second. Mm-hmm. Um, it'll be interesting to see how, I don't know. Things to think about and study behind that, but that really stood out to me when you were saying that like resonated and, yeah. I think one of the things, if, if we have time this morning, if we even to get into is, well what do you look for when you're looking for someone?
[00:11:27] Do you look for the technologist? Do you look for the data specialist, business analyst? What is it you're looking for as you build out, you know, your support team, um, with your CRM as it grows. Yeah.
[00:11:38] Jamie Gleason: I actually think that's a, that's a fascinating topic. Probably, maybe not one that we'd get into today, but I also think, though, that struck me, you know, like to me the, the, the adage or maybe the, the thing I've heard about Bill Gates, right?
[00:11:51] He, like always, he, he always thinks of himself first as a programmer. He, he owns the freaking company, but it's like he first thinks of [00:12:00] himself as a programmer and I. Everything he does kind of stems from that, that vantage point. And I, I totally agree with you. I think, you know, when I was used to be a director of admissions, uh, one of the things that I always loved when I was thinking about my team, I, I would always first look at the transfer counselor.
[00:12:18] Uh, the future leader of the department usually was the person who was in charge of transfer admissions because they knew. They knew more than anyone else about everything that was going on. I don't know why. Maybe that was just my own experience, but I felt like those individuals were always my go-to people when it came to like understanding, like what are the warts, what are the things that we can't get over?
[00:12:40] What are the things that people, you know, that I feel like transfers are just the audience, uh, on the undergrad side that like really had to be convinced more and they were always the people that could.
[00:12:51] Mickey Baines: Hey, I know you're deeply engaged with this conversation, but we're gonna pause just for a moment for an important word from our sponsors.[00:13:00]
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[00:14:09] Mickey Baines: Well, so I wanna talk, um, since we were starting off with data mm-hmm. You also threw out, uh, a term that we've talked a little bit before on this show. Um, but, uh, sales ops. Mm. Because when it comes to crm, what does CM does is support marketing and admissions, at least CRM from an admissions perspective, that recruitment and admissions outreach, but it supports enrollment, marketing, it supports, uh, admissions and outreach, the sales process.
[00:14:36] So in your work with, with sales ops, Can you talk just a little bit about, you know, what are the basic foundational elements when you're thinking some of the companies you work with? From a sales ops perspective? Mm-hmm. Because I like to break apart and think, you know, what are, what is happening outside of higher ed?
[00:14:53] How do we translate that into higher ed so that we can understand it? But the reason I do that is because [00:15:00] outside of higher ed, they're typically one to. Five or 10 years maybe ahead of us. Mm-hmm. Um, and so what do you see there because, you know, be your, your background in being able to work with. Helps you expedite and accelerate, maybe the schools catching up faster to other industries.
[00:15:19] Mm-hmm. Uh, because you can bring that, um, understanding and translate what one industry's doing to higher ed more easily. So, you know, when you think about sales option, you think about how data informs the ability of a sales ops function to work better. What what has set the foundation of that?
[00:15:39] Rich Kochman: That's a great question.
[00:15:40] Uh, and thank you for the setup. I might bring you along to some client pitches. Um, the, again, I go back to the, the concept I said earlier, um, which is always starting with the end in mind. Yeah. Um, and when it comes to your enrollment center, your contact center, your your [00:16:00] outreach strategy, um, similar to, to what I was saying and I think this was the point I was trying to make earlier.
[00:16:07] When I was talking about marketing budgets and an infinite number of options, but, but a, a finite or scarce amount of budget. If you have 10 enrollment counselors that are working 40 hours a week, they have 400 hours per week. I'm always thinking what is the best use of their time? And how do you engender that?
[00:16:32] How do you, how do you support that? Um, so for me, The whole concept with sales ops and use of, of CRMs is, um, I mean, on the one hand reporting and reporting for deans and enrollment centers and, um, uh, other student support. So, so that staffing is right, but also just what, what should people be doing? [00:17:00] Um, so, so I'm using data to understand.
[00:17:04] Who is new, who just raised their hand, and we can think about for that segment, what's, what's the best outreach, what's the best use of time? Um, do you want to, at that point, do you have enough history and enough information about people that you want to score them to figure out who am I going to invest more time and direct outreach to versus who am I going to start sending a set of emails to and wait for them to engage a second time?
[00:17:33] Before I take my scarcity resource, which is people's time, um, as candidates, uh, our applicants start going through a process. Every school, every company has a different, I'll call it sales process or enrollment process. Let's map that out. I'm always thinking about what do we need the prospective student to be [00:18:00] demonstrating?
[00:18:01] I am. Not a fan of in, of ever letting admissions people say somebody is in this stage or somebody is in this stage. No. Like, have they actually sent in their application? Have we actually seen a letter of recommendation come through? Only then can you tell me they are higher or lower probability? Um, or only then can we say they're in this stage or that stage.
[00:18:22] Um, and still similarly using that information. Where are people in this process? From there, we can either automate, um, outreach to them through email, through chat, through text. We can pick up the phone, we can send them letters, like we can just start thinking about what is the right amount of outreach for the team we have.
[00:18:45] And if everything is done properly, we're measuring it along the way. Um, the one other thing I'll, I'll add in there, that's really sort of critical when building any of these things. Um, Is to make sure that all of these [00:19:00] stages or activities, um, they get a timestamp on them. Let's understand what the velocity is.
[00:19:06] Let's also understand, and this is especially important, I think, for when you're deciding what your priorities are as an enrollment counselor, when was the last time we saw somebody, when was the last time we did any outreach to them? Just using those two pieces of information, I can make somebody way more effective than.
[00:19:27] Somebody just opening up Salesforce and seeing a whole list of names and, and prospective
[00:19:31] Jamie Gleason: students. That sounds so simple
[00:19:34] Mickey Baines: sometimes, you know, I, I love that you started with that. Um, and I don't, can't recall if I've ever, or the last time if I did kind of refer, refer to it the way you did and, and cuz it goes to me visually very well.
[00:19:48] Um, 10. You got 10, uh, admission counselors, recruiters, Roman council revenue on call. You got 10 of them 40 hours a week, that's 400 hours. How are you using those [00:20:00] 400 hours to enroll students, whether that's next fall, next month, whatever, you know? And I remember when I had a team of seven, you know, I didn't do it that way, but I did be because they had three or two primary things I needed them to do.
[00:20:18] They, they recruited students, but they also advised and supported current student. But their primary job was to recruit it. And so we just had a 60, 30, 10 model. Mm-hmm. Because it wasn't always that way. They, when I first took over the program, it was very much, I'm here to support these students and then I enroll students.
[00:20:36] And I'm like, no, because we need more students. And so we shifted and, and I just put this framework, 60, 30, 10, 60% recruitment, 30% support, 10% other duties as assigned whoever created. That's a genius that, that topic. But um, but we did that and then, you know, for those. I don't wanna say weren't producing, but weren't having enough conversations that we knew needed to be had in order [00:21:00] to have the number of students we needed.
[00:21:02] Then we could go to, say, Um, let's look at how you're spending your time. And that's what eventually led to me going into my calendar and just color coding how I spend my time. Mm-hmm. So that if my job is enroll students, I can look to see what my time was spent on and I can say, well, 50% of your time this week was spent recruiting students.
[00:21:21] It needs to be 60. Right. That doesn't mean next week we're going to 60, that means next week we need to be at 70 because we have to make up for the time we just lost. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and those conversations, Helped ensure that not just me, but the team understood how they're spending their time and helped them think more critically about is if I spend my time doing whatever this activity is this week, how is that going to help and what do I need to do differently next week because of it?
[00:21:50] Yeah.
[00:21:51] Rich Kochman: Part of, I, I love that approach and, and even when I started my own consulting practice, uh, for a couple of years, I logged all of my time and, and [00:22:00] had it coded as this is time for prospecting, this is time for clients, this is time for networking, et cetera. To keep me honest cuz like at any given time, what I'm doing is really, really important.
[00:22:11] But you had to sort of take that step back to understand is this contributing to, to my goals. I I do think part of the art and science of all of this is making sure the systems are still there to support the people. And that we're not creating so much overhead in terms of everything that has to be input and all of the time that it's taking to input different things.
[00:22:36] Mm-hmm. Such that the system is managing us. Yeah. Hundred percent. And that's, you know, when you start stepping back through from philosophically, what are we trying to achieve? Yeah. In the nuts and bolts of what's really important here. Yeah. Is this activity actually going to be producing value? Yeah. What other sort of pillar that I use?
[00:22:58] Um, and [00:23:00] this will, will vary from client to client, but I have my own, uh, very strong feelings about it. At, at one extreme, you could, uh, if, if you clicked your heels three times, um, you could build a CRM system with marketing automation that just automates everything. And it's not just the outreach, but it's also telling everybody on your.
[00:23:25] Enrollment advising team, here's the next call you should make. Here's the next person you should reach out to. Here's the next. And it's just, it's feeding it to you one by one. And as soon as you finish the task, it gives you the next one. I am actually not at all a fan of doing that. Um, one, I don't think any system can be, I don't think there's any amount of analytics that makes you perfect at doing that.
[00:23:47] Um, and I also think that your enrollment advisors. At least in the, the marketing side, until people become students, they are the single most important asset that's there. [00:24:00] And they actually know the most amount of, of anybody else. They're, they're talking to prospective students. They know what's motivating people, what's keeping people from doing things, et cetera.
[00:24:10] And, and the good ones know their students or their prospects really, really well. Um, cause of. The other thing that I'm always trying to do when designing these systems or figuring out what stage somebody is in, um, I want to give enrollment managers, enrollment counselors all the information they need so they can best organize their day.
[00:24:34] Hey, these are the, you know, like I was saying before, these are the new leads. These are the people that just submitted an application. These are the people that just were admitted. I want them to be thinking about what's the most important, give them some guidance, but this is the next most important call to make.
[00:24:50] Um, but let them do it. And, and as a former, um, as a mentor of mine, uh, said to me once, cuz we were having this debate, he said, [00:25:00] if you treat people like robots, you're only going to hire robots. Yeah. You treat people like, you know, smart thinking, thoughtful humans. That's who is going to be attracted to and stay with your organization.
[00:25:15] Jamie Gleason: This whole podcast is about growth through technology. But, but we have to figure out like what's the, what is the root of our cause, right? Is is the root of our cause, like we want to get to the bottom line? Or is it that we wanna find and place students in the most, you know, optimal place for their future, for the future of our institution, for all those kind of things.
[00:25:35] And I think. Like really gets to the brass tack of like, it's why we all love higher ed. Right? There's deep down inside. Like I, I love presenting and like making the joke about no one jumps into higher ed because they're gonna get rich because it's true. No person in higher ed is getting into it, except maybe in the for-profit world because it's revenue, like, you know, super lucrative.
[00:25:57] We get into it because we have a deep [00:26:00] passion for what education does for people. Mm-hmm. And you're, you're spot on. I love how you said that with like the, the fact that like the people. Have to use the tool, the tools, you know, the people are the, that which manage the tools. The, the tool doesn't manage the people.
[00:26:16] So like, uh, so
[00:26:18] Mickey Baines: good. It, it, it goes to, uh, one of the things I I say is, you know, we're not using technology for technology's sake. Technology is there to support the work that the humans need to do. Yep. Especially when, like, when we're talking admissions here, so when you first started say Talking to Rich, I was like, I'm gonna have to say I disagree a little.
[00:26:35] But as you talked and finished it, I, I'm not disagreeing. I think, um, different angles to the same point. Um, so one thing's like, you know, I don't want the CRM to say here's who to call next. Right? Is one of the, like, you don't necessarily want that type of robotic environment. And what comes to my mind was, I initially I thought, well, I kind of do want that, but I don't what I want.
[00:26:58] And this is where you came to in that [00:27:00] is, You know, if I've got a prospect pool and I'm thinking like a traditional admissions counselor, my prospect territory and the people that are in there might be in the thousands. Mm-hmm. So I need to be informed who's done what to know that it is time to necessarily connect.
[00:27:16] It's not necessarily, I don't need the tool to say, Mickey called Jamie, I just need to know that Jamie took an action so that I can critically assess is this the right time to have that connection Correct. And, and it is. I'm gonna say this and I, and I, and I think I believe this and I'm pretty certain I believe it, but it's can be easier to build that in the technology to automate it than to teach Jamie how to critically assess that a hundred percent.
[00:27:46] Like there are things that have to be in place before I can make the technology smart enough to do those things. There are a lot of building blocks that have to go in place. Yeah. But if I've got those building blocks in place to turn that feature onto, just say, Jimmy called this. That's the [00:28:00] easy way out.
[00:28:01] Yeah. And that's why we get this rinse and repeat stuff that's going out there. But if we want to grow with technology, like it is putting the building blocks in place that allow the minds of our staff to be put to use. Mm-hmm. Yes. To engage in, build relationships with students. So when
[00:28:20] Rich Kochman: I was in one of my former companies, um, we'll keep this clean.
[00:28:25] In one of my former companies, there was a lot of, um, There was originally reporting on how much phone time there was from the admissions team and I just, it threw that out as a kpi. Yeah. I'm like, no, like, let me be clear. We should still measure it, but the first thing that we should be doing is measuring, um, either not even contacts, like, Hey, how many, cuz you know, you get interest and then those people had to start applications.
[00:28:57] How many applications is this person's [00:29:00] pull? Uh, how many applications are coming through this person's pull? And we were kind of sophisticated. We had, um, a proprietary application. Uh, you could start seeing when people were in the application for the second or third time. So I'm measuring those things and if the enrollment advisors were doing well, I didn't care how much phone time they had, how many phone calls they were making.
[00:29:27] They were thinking, you know, maybe they were lucky or they were thinking critically about who is in my pool? What do I know about them based on these tools that the sales ops team has given me, I can manage my day and look, I am helping to get more students. Programs.
[00:29:47] Mickey Baines: Um, I, I love, I love that. I'm sorry to interrupt, but, but this is one of the things that, that I've been talking a lot about this year, about this.
[00:29:55] How do we collect, what are the types of data we need to collect and use? And so what you kind of [00:30:00] said there, you threw out a magic. Number, our magic data point, and that's, we knew that it was the second or third time that someone logged into the application. Mm-hmm. So if I were to ask many of our clients, or many of the prospective clients that we even talked to, how, what is the average number of logins it takes a applicant to take, to start and then submit the application for or to complete the application process?
[00:30:25] That's a rich data point to have. Right? That's a rich datapoint. Think of all the things that you can do with that type of data. And it's not something that most of them, well, I don't know about that. That's a good statement. But some schools can easily get that, some cannot, um, depending upon the tool that you have.
[00:30:40] And that is where if you don't know where you want to go, mm-hmm. That's what you don't know to ask for in a selection process. Right, because then you don't know. They'll all show you, look how cool this application is. Students can just go through it. They see where they are, but if you can't gather how many logins they're making to do that, [00:31:00] then you've just limited yourself.
[00:31:02] Yeah. We're probably at least five years from taking great actionable first party data. Which we want more first party data that can just think of all the things the, the auto automat, even if you wanted automated communications or if you wanted to inform Jamie. Hey Jamie. Mickey just logged in for the third time.
[00:31:20] Yep. It's been three weeks. Right. You know, you may wanna do something like that. So sorry to cut you off, rich, but that was like no, right on my mind. Thank
[00:31:27] Rich Kochman: you for, for reemphasizing it. It's a, it's one of a few different, I think, sort of magic numbers and it has huge value when it comes to, uh, predictive analytics.
[00:31:37] I don't even wanna say predictive analytics, just estimating how many enrollments or how many applications you might end up with. How many completed applications? The, um, just to complete my point before, um, love coming up with those types of KPIs for the folks that are working as enrollment advisors.
[00:31:58] Cuz again, like just the, [00:32:00] the stat of how many of the people in your pool have been in their application for a second or third time. This. If I know that's a good number, I know that everything else this person is doing is right. Like I don't need to measure anything else. They, they're contact, you know, they're, they're doing the right outreach, they're having the right conversations, et cetera.
[00:32:20] It's only when some of these numbers, um, or some of the goals that are out there, you know, your bottom 20% of people, then you can go to them and also look at some of their activity numbers. And I always say, if they have good activity numbers, well now I as their manager know that the coaching opportunity, let's talk about the conversations you're having.
[00:32:43] Let's talk about who you're choosing to chat with, um, or do outreach to. Great. If their numbers are really low, well then maybe it's another problem and a whole different conversation you have with them. But I'm always starting. What are the outcome, well, I shouldn't [00:33:00] say outcomes in a higher ed context.
[00:33:02] Um, what are the conversions? What are the results that we're saying? And only then go back to other things that I think are sort of the, the lazy manager or lazy woman's kpi.
[00:33:14] Jamie Gleason: I think it's interesting that you just, you know, it's so, I think there's a cynic in me as a Gen Xer that automatically thinks, um, That the people that we're, uh, that we're going to be hiring are always gonna wanna take the easy way out, right?
[00:33:32] They're always gonna wanna have the technology that says, do this. So you don't have to think, I mean, my own teenagers, I, I like, you know, the conversations avail, uh, do the nu number of times that we have to tell them to. To resist the temptation to like look up the answer so that way, you know, because Google can feed them the answer anytime they want.
[00:33:56] A and the, the easy way out always seems like it involves [00:34:00] the use of technology. I think what you're saying here is, is not an, it's not an either or, and I wanna be careful not to like, kind of fall into the, it's either, you know, the person's a hard worker and intuitive, or they rely on technology. I think it's, it's like this really.
[00:34:14] Paper, thin, fine line of both. And where you have people who have put, who are willing to put in the time to think critically about what matters. Like making, under, getting a, a global understanding of what matters, but then also using the technology to leverage that, what matters to like, make that an important part of their.
[00:34:37] Their own repertoire of like how they handle the storytelling, how they handle the process, how they handle, you know, X, y, Z, but making available that technology to get them to that point. And I think that's like, that's like a, such a critical need in this space. You know, as we like, put ourselves up against people, including, you know, you know, vendors in the space who are saying [00:35:00] it.
[00:35:00] It's not necessarily about like, um, It's not necessarily about those meaningful engagements, it's about the numbers. It's about just pumping more in so that we can get more out. And I think that like putting a stick of dynamite under that and just blowing it up from the root. I mean, it's hard. It's, it's hard I think on the higher ed side because they're like, well, we need the numbers, right?
[00:35:24] We need to have the numbers for our, our bond rating, for our blah, blah, blah, whatever you want to say. But it's. But in reality, what they need is those students who are gonna say yes, who are gonna be engaged, who are gonna stay and be retained and graduate and be great alumni, and then come back and send their kids.
[00:35:40] It's like, it's not just a six month, you know, win. We're looking for a 60 year win from this student. Mm-hmm. And how do we get to that point where we're like investing. From the first interaction instead of just reading them as like a data point, you know, they're just a number, so [00:36:00] to speak, not even, so to speak, actually.
[00:36:02] Quite literally just a number. And it's like we, we want them to be a human. Yeah, a hundred percent. Man, you've really got me going here. This is like, this is, this is, this is something, yeah. I mean, usually
[00:36:12] Mickey Baines: the one on the soapbox. Um, but I've, I've virtually passed it over to, to Amy. I think this point, well, you know, there's something and, and this is very.
[00:36:22] Far out beyond that 60 year out range that you're, you're talking about. But, uh, and, and I don't wanna take us down a huge rabbit hole, but, you know, I, I think about this a lot as, as institutions shift to online models. What does that do to alumni relations and advancement and fundraising? Especially institutions who, who have larger endowments who built that up to help sustain Yeah.
[00:36:45] Or grow, maybe not sustain, grow. Mm-hmm. Um, you don't fundraise the same way when everyone's virtual. And the thing that, that stand out to me about that is once you go virtual, that recruitment approach, that in which starts your relationship building process. Mm-hmm. [00:37:00] And then the rest of the relationships that you build, they're on out for students.
[00:37:03] And underlying program is very d. A, we don't necessarily know how to fundraise that group yet. We've not had to do that a whole lot. B I think even if you do adjust, I don't think the, um, I would be shocked for anyone to say my giving rate is equal or greater than, um, For my online students equal or greater than alums from the traditional programs, the in-class, face-to-face programs.
[00:37:28] And so if you know, what does that do long-term? Uh, and when you set up these models that are only based on numbers and, and, and we hope set them up. Um, but from recruitment, even student success, cause I'm thinking about early, um, outreach for like early alert programs, students done three things. This is how we.
[00:37:51] And, and the model that we like best, and I don't, you know, we'll find in time how we tweak this, but it's, it's a tiered level approach and it's, [00:38:00] it's just to give the outreach person some guidance on things they could do. But they need to, again, as we were saying, critically assess what is right for that student, right?
[00:38:10] We need to understand what information that person needs to see so that they can make that assessment, um, in there and that keeps it more personal or personable and that, you know, That, that is, you know, especially with online schools, that's how this outreach is occurring. And so we don't want it to be just automations, um, because you lose that touch and there's other 10, 20, 30 year impacts, um, that, that we have not yet gotten close to seeing from, from this.
[00:38:39] Rich Kochman: Right. And then we can bring this back to a CRM conversation. I was listening to one of your recent episodes and somebody made this amazing point of, it's the folks in the advancement office that kind of gets rude because they're the recipients of data that's just been handed down and handed down and handed down and handed down.
[00:38:57] Yeah. Um, Mickey, the point you're making, and I think it's [00:39:00] great, is their job probably gets even harder when it's for online students. Um, You know, I I some of this con, some of this part of the conversation and what we were talking about just before, like we can get back into the whole marketing piece of just marketing higher ed programs and online programs.
[00:39:20] Um, and, and even just, you know, if we think about it from the, from the non-high ed world, like what is the customer experience? You know, what is the student experience? What are you doing along the way to. Really sort of engender, uh, some sense of belonging to that school. Um, are you sending people t-shirts?
[00:39:43] Are you sending people a sticker to put in their car? Um, are you inviting them to campus? Are you trying to find, you know, are you creating communities for your online students so that they can be having conversations with each other, you know, away from mom and dad, [00:40:00] so to speak. Doing more of that will keep people, I think, closer.
[00:40:05] And it's sort of a whole nother set of things to do. Yeah. Um, but it's, uh, it, it is fascinating. I was fortunate to be at two U in 20 11, 12, 13 when some, some much bigger schools, some fairly. Highly ranked schools were beginning to get into online programs and, and this was very much top of mind for all of them.
[00:40:33] Um mm-hmm. My information was back aways, but some of those schools, uh, one of the numbers that, one of the points we would tell was the giving was actually better from the online community than it was from, um, the on-campus student. At least for a year, and I, I don't know if it was more than that, but all you need is one year and then you can keep trotting that number out.
[00:40:56] Mickey Baines: We could do a, a series with.
[00:40:58] Jamie Gleason: Yes. I, I [00:41:00] totally agree.
[00:41:01] Mickey Baines: It would be full of rich content. Oh,
[00:41:05] Jamie Gleason: very well played. That was, that's like borderline kind of dad joke. Maybe
[00:41:11] Rich Kochman: there's no borderline. You just jump right over it.
[00:41:15] Jamie Gleason: That's not borderline.
[00:41:16] Mickey Baines: That's apparent.
[00:41:20] Rich Kochman: Jamie, make 'em stop. I know
[00:41:24] Jamie Gleason: my efforts are futile.
[00:41:27] Rich Kochman: I would love to be back anytime. Um, I do enjoy this conversation. Um, I know that for most people, this, this might be a really good cure for insomnia. Uh, but I, I geek out on this and yeah, I'm, I'm more excited at the end of this conversation even than I was at the beginning.
[00:41:42] Oh, awesome.
[00:41:43] Mickey Baines: Well, so am I. Uh, I've got a lot of ideas. Uh, things are always running through my head that flesh on it when we're done. So Rich, as always, such a great pleasure connecting and, and talking. I'm glad we're able to share the conversation this time with, um, listeners, uh, everyone. Rich Cookman, great consultant who knows our [00:42:00] space, um, who knows a lot about.
[00:42:02] Jamie, that was awesome. Spring's coming. We've got more episodes to, to follow. Um, that's right. I think we just had on, on our Fanatical Fridays podcast, we just did one on virtual reality. Ooh, nice. I I got a lot of comments, uh, people messaged me about it. So it's, uh, kind of cool to see that, um, I'm hopeful we can soon show folks.
[00:42:23] We're gonna have a video version of the podcast. Uh, I'm just gonna say it. That makes it required that we do it now. Yeah. Uh, with some of our, uh, CRM vendors. We're gonna show some behind the scenes, look at some platforms. Maybe you've seen some stuff, maybe you've not. Um, but we're gonna show that we've got several lined up, um, coming later this spring.
[00:42:43] So I'm excited for that. I'm excited to get back to warmer weather. What are you, what are you
[00:42:48] excited
[00:42:48] Jamie Gleason: for? Um, yeah, I'm also excited for warmer weather, which means I get to go and visit my off-grid home and, uh, spend some time in the, in the sand. But [00:43:00] most of all, you know, I actually, yesterday, sorry, I'm like, it's like intro, outro stuff, but, um, I spent a lot of time just pruning my raspberry and blueberry bushes.
[00:43:11] So that was actually, you know, good for the soul. So I had some time off. So it was, uh, it was good. So it was a little primer to, uh, primer to spring and then it snowed that evening. So what do you, what do you think? I mean, just good timing. Good timing. Yeah. Good timing. So, all right everyone. Thanks for joining us and make sure that you don't miss the next upcoming episodes of CR Improv.
[00:43:32] And if you want to leave us a review.[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Zach Busekrus: Hey, I'll, Zach, you're from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of CRMImprov. If you liked this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leaving a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.
[00:44:17] Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are, jam-packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professionals. But Enrollify is far more than just a podcast network.
[00:44:34] Enrollify is where higher ed comes to learn new marketing skills, discover new products and services, and find their next job. We're a growing learning community of 4,000 members, and we love to welcome you into the fold. You can access our free blog, articles, newsletters, e-courses, and more, or purchase our master course on how to market a university with Terry Flannery at Enrollify.org
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About the Episode
The what's what...
We’ve all heard the adage - “begin with the end in mind” (one of Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People) - but how does the work that you and your institution do with your CRM abide by this crucial principle?
The winding and unscripted conversation that host’s Mickey and Jamie have this week with guest Rich Kochman highlights the intricate level of detail that is required to design and implement the right system, in the right way, in order to get to a meaningful end. There are SO MANY rich moments in the conversation from a seasoned marketing professional who started as an analyst.
Highlights of the episode include conversation about the:
- Optimal use of your team's time to accomplish all the things needed for your process,
- Understanding how to create a system that you manage versus implementing a system that manages us,
- Assessing and leveraging the necessary human skills that are required make your enrollment operation successful (read: it’s NOT all about the tech!)
The conversation with Rich is rich (#dadjoke anyone?). The conversation is organic and meaningful…and really covers the spectrum of how humans (your team) and machine (your CRM software) need to work together to get to your goal! You won’t want to skip this episode!
This episode is brought to you by our friends at DD Agency:
DD Agency is a higher ed-specific marketing technology agency that has conducted countless SEO Audits for colleges and universities across the country.
In these audits, they detail where you currently rank, what you could be ranking for, exactly how copy should be tweaked on website pages, and much more.
If this sounds like something you could benefit from, give those folks a ping and be sure to mention that Enrollify sent you to claim a 10% discount on any of their SEO offerings.
Head on over to enrollify.org/ddaseo, or simply follow the link in the show notes below…that will guarantee you get a 10% discount off of your audit.
About the Enrollify Podcast Network
CRMprov is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you’ll like other Enrollify shows too!
Our podcast network is growing by the month and we’ve got a plethora of marketing, admissions, and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks all designed to empower you to be a better higher ed professional. Our shows feature a selection of the industry’s best as your hosts. Learn from Jeremy Tiers, Zach Busekrus, Jaime Hunt, Tony Fraga, Corynn Myers, Jamie Gleason and many more.
Learn more about The Enrollify Podcast Network at podcasts.enrollify.org. Our shows help higher ed marketers and admissions professionals find their next big idea — come and find yours!
About the Podcast
Mickey Baines leads the technology services practice at Kennedy & Company. Kennedy & Co assists colleges and universities in the selection, implementation, customization and integration of various CRM technologies, including Salesforce, TargetX, Slate and others. They lead projects of all sizes for public and private two and four-year institutions. Whether he's working hands-on in an enrollment strategy project, leading a CRM implementation or speaking at a conference, the goal is the same - to help higher ed professionals implement technologies, strategies & tactics that engage and enroll more students.
Jamie Gleason is the Vice President Of Enrollment Strategy at Direct Development. He brings over 15 years of higher education experience to the team; almost a decade of which was spent on campus(es) and nearly six years was in edtech. A self-proclaimed "farmer + fixer," Enrollment has always provided the perfect challenge for him! He's happiest when mining through spreadsheets, results, and (generally) any type of data!
Rich Kochman is a data-driven business leader with a passion for education innovation. His early career included more than a dozen years in senior roles at various companies leading product, pricing, marketing, business operations, and data analytics. Since then, he has brought this range of experiences to education focused companies and higher education institutions where he has developed a strong track record of driving sustainable growth. Rich served as EVP, Marketing & Analytics at 2U (TWOU) for almost four years where he played a key role in producing 400% revenue growth and was a member of the executive team that took the company public. He then joined General Assembly as Chief Marketing Officer to help lead the organization through a critical growth stage and geographic expansion. In early 2015 Rich launched Adaptive Consulting. As an executive consultant & advisor, he continues leveraging his broad expertise to deliver measurable growth strategies for institutions and companies that improve people’s lives through education. With a constant focus on the financial impact, Rich achieves success by adapting his experience to each organization’s needs, resources, and unique opportunities. Rich’s engagements include work with: edtech & tech enabled service companies, universities, and the investor community to provide operational diligence. Enterprise clients range from growth stage companies (examples: Noodle, Kenzie Academy, Emeritus, Green Flower) to publicly traded entities (examples: Wiley Education, American Public University, Stride K12). In addition to his consulting engagements, Rich teaches at University of Pennsylvania in the Education Entrepreneurship Master’s Program. Rich also serves as a mentor and advisor for several EdTech startups and has been a featured speaker at events hosted by i3@UNC, the Wharton Innovation Summit, and Google Education.
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DD Agency is a digital marketing agency for higher education with a propensity for marketing technology. They're the only HubSpot Platinum Partner Agency that exclusively serves the enrollment marketing space. Living out their mission statement "We help Davids beat Goliaths" means DD helps clients develop inbound marketing strategies that use content and marketing automation to achieve their enrollment goals. Whether you're looking for a full-fledged, 12-month strategic marketing plan, or just a fresh approach to a blitz campaign, they're the marketing partner you want in your corner! The DD team is guided by 6 core values: treat clients like family, be ridiculously helpful, challenge conventional thinking, treasure transparency, adapt and improve, and "make it fridge-worthy."
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CRMprov is a biweekly show that reveals how institutions can experience growth through technology. Tune in as higher ed enthusiasts Mickey Baines and Jamie Gleason partake in free-range dialogue around changes in edtech (including CRMs), vendor tutorials, insights on outcomes, industry adoption, and more!
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