How to Ask Better Questions to Get Better Student Stories

Full Transcript

Enrollify - Fanatical Fridays - 54 - Student stories

[00:01:18] Zach Busekrus: Welcome to fanatical Fridays, a weekly podcast where I sit down with Mickey Bains, a principal at Kennedy and company, which is a higher education consulting firm to discuss the traits, the strategies and the tactics that [00:01:30] separate the best enrollment management teams from the rest of the. I'm Zach Busekrus founder here at Enrollify.

[00:01:36] Zach Busekrus: Enjoy the show.[00:01:45] 

[00:01:48] Zach Busekrus: good morning. How are you doing? 

[00:01:51] Mickey Baines: I'm doing well, Zack. It's another fine Friday here in the spring. Uh, as. Well, at [00:02:00] least while we're recording this, you know, folks are getting ready to, um, have graduations on campus. Beautiful time on campus. And buses is as pretty as it gets, or maybe second Prius to see opening and closing of the year.

[00:02:12] Mickey Baines: The two prettiest time, obviously [00:02:15] on the campus, um, people getting ready to leave campus, whether it's students, sometimes it's faculty who are, you know, nine month contracts, uh, changes the work environment a little bit on campus. Um, Which I always liked and appreciated, [00:02:30] um, very much so, um, super, super exciting times for a lot of our clients.

[00:02:35] I 

[00:02:35] Zach Busekrus: feel like, yeah, the, the whole, like the seasonality of hierarchy. Is is fun, right? Like it's, it's warm out. It's it's like humid and you're like, okay. [00:02:45] Graduation is just around the corner. Like summer is on the horizon. And then when you get back to, to, you know, fall, as the weather starts to get a little bit cooler, there's like, you know, uh, this, this optimistic.

[00:02:56] Zach Busekrus: Uh, outlook and perspective on, Ooh, all the learning that [00:03:00] we're going to dive into over the next season. So it is it's fun. I, you know, I don't know that like every industry gets that. Um, and so it's definitely cool that that happens here and in our space, that exciting 

[00:03:11] Mickey Baines: launched in the fall. The reflection and celebration of success [00:03:15] in the spring.

[00:03:16] Mickey Baines: Um, and then the entirely different dynamic of life on campus during the summer, those flows other industries don't get those. I mean, yeah. You know, retail you've got, I don't know that it's, there's a whole lot [00:03:30] happiness too. Counting to cash coming in and gets excited. I'm sure. But you know, you've got the holiday season leading up the holiday, which really now starts in July.

[00:03:39] Mickey Baines: Um, you know, with Christmas in July, which some, uh, retail companies do, and then you've got, [00:03:45] you know, decorations coming out in August. Um, you know, that stuff, I, you know, there's some seasonality there, but I think in higher ed, it's really the best season. Now I need to, I mean, just, just that excitement that you get in, uh, [00:04:00] Um, the celebration you get in late April and may, and then you know that little bit of life in late December to early January when, when you're in between terms or over the summer.

[00:04:11] Mickey Baines: Yes, there's a summer session, but it's not the same and not all faculty there. [00:04:15] It's just a different pace. I don't know, there's, there's something really, really special about it, for sure. And I know everyone listening in our, in our world gets it in and in appreciate it too. Hopefully they appreciate it, but I know 

[00:04:26] Zach Busekrus: I always loved it.

[00:04:27] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. For all of the, uh, the challenges the industry [00:04:30] faces, at least that's a, that's a, that's a positive sort of, uh, thing to remember as we, as we think about all of the challenges that we face. But, um, so I know that there's a couple of things we wanted to talk about today. The first thing, [00:04:45] um, that I I've been spending a lot of time thinking about is how to ask better questions to be able to.

[00:04:54] Zach Busekrus: Uh, essentially sort of draw out better stories. So we've spent a lot of time talking about, I know [00:05:00] that you've spent a lot of time talking about that. We've on this podcast has spent a lot of time talking about the importance of personalizing the student experience, ensuring that we're doing everything within our respective teams, power to personalize that journey to enrollment down to the, down to the individual [00:05:15] prospect.

[00:05:15] Zach Busekrus: And the way that we do that at scale is through marketing automation. You know, understanding our tech stack and making sure that our teams are empowered to do these things and, and yada yada, yada, but a core tenant to inspiring any prospective student to ultimately [00:05:30] enroll in your, in your institution is what do other students say about your college or university?

[00:05:36] Zach Busekrus: Right? What are. What are the stories, um, that you can, as an enrollment manager leverage in order to attract similar [00:05:45] students or, or other students that might be inspired by, by these student stories. And so ultimately, you know, depending on the institution's context, sometimes this falls on marketing's plate.

[00:05:54] Zach Busekrus: Sometimes this falls in on enrollment management's plate, sometimes it's, uh, oftentimes it's a hybrid. So I thought it [00:06:00] would just be fun to like, spend a little bit of time. Uh, thinking through how do we, how do we as, how do we help sort of inspire the best enrollment management teams to do a better job at sourcing these stories?

[00:06:14] Zach Busekrus: Are there any [00:06:15] frameworks that we would recommend that could be helpful? Are there any specific questions that we think should be asked that might not be. The top of buying, you know, questions that you initially think of when prepping for one of these interviews. So I've got, I've got a couple ideas, um, but [00:06:30] you know, w right off the cuff, like, as you think about this, um, does anything stir up inside of you?

[00:06:37] Zach Busekrus: Like, is there, is there any sort of, like, when you think about, uh, sourcing student stories that will then be leveraged for the purpose of recruiting other [00:06:45] students? What comes to mind immediately as like a must do or, or, or a must don't and then I can get into some of my ideas. 

[00:06:54] Mickey Baines: So there are a couple of things before I do an interview.

[00:06:58] Mickey Baines: Uh, and to be fair has been in for years that [00:07:00] I've done this directly, but few things that I do that I have to be in place prior a, I find that there's, there's a blend there's there. There's an intersection of, is there a good story to tell. Uh, that the [00:07:15] student has to bring. And is there other questions I want to be sure that are being answered to provide other value.

[00:07:22] Mickey Baines: So how does that story relate to other students, prospective students experience and story? Where's that connection? You know, you don't want some, [00:07:30] some story that could be good, but so far out there that no one else can really. Um, and it doesn't necessarily get you value. I can't tell you the number of times I've looked at client videos that have been recorded and like, man, this is [00:07:45] just pure eco.

[00:07:45] Mickey Baines: Yeah. This school is recorded this to pat themselves on the back and that's the feeling I get from it now, maybe I'm skewed and I know to extend it. So I look at that. The other thing I look at when I'm bringing student in for interview is. If [00:08:00] they have a good story, they may have the best story and it may be completely relatable.

[00:08:04] Mickey Baines: Do they? How well can they articulate that story? Yes, you can have a great interviewer doing pro probing questions and pull it out of them, but some students are much easier to [00:08:15] pull out than others. And how well do I understand that going into the interview so that when we think about the questions they asked that we know.

[00:08:24] Mickey Baines: I asked the question I really want upfront. If I know I've got to really build this person up to [00:08:30] open them up, um, and, uh, or prepare whomever else is asking that like, look, here's the heart of this person's story. So I need to know that going into it before, like, and then I've told this person, it takes a while to draw them out.

[00:08:44] Mickey Baines: Here's some leading [00:08:45] questions that help get them more comfortable. So that then when you're ready for the story, it's more natural. Uh, and it's a more powerful story. So I think that those are two key things. That I have think about going into it. And I can tell you, I, you know, I used to get my stories [00:09:00] from my students when I did them.

[00:09:02] Mickey Baines: I, you know, by reading their admissions essays, you know, I, you know, and, and just to clarify folks the last time at my last role directly in higher ed, I was working with non-traditional students. And so those [00:09:15] stories were a little more dynamic at times. I got to see, you know, I will always remember, and this is an essay I read from the, from a student the last, my last year there.

[00:09:26] Mickey Baines: And so I didn't get the interview him per story, but [00:09:30] you know, he put on his essay, you know, he's not sure if he could do this program. His last experience before dropping out of college was a math professor, kicking them out of class, have a calculus class because he was. [00:09:45] Supposed to be in that course, he didn't place into that course.

[00:09:48] Mickey Baines: Although he had gone through to get permission, that professor said, no, you don't have my permission. You have to leave and made him leave in front of everybody else and what that did [00:10:00] to him. Wow. Now I know, because I filed that suit. I know he did well and graduated from that from our program, but you know, those.

[00:10:10] Mickey Baines: Those stories and to see what he was able to accomplish [00:10:15] and what education didn't help him do beyond. Correct. You know, th those are the stories I was looking for. And, you know, when you read 300 essays a year, or I don't know how many we had, we made me 500. I don't, I don't remember how, but when you're reading that you can find those in.

[00:10:29] Mickey Baines: So I [00:10:30] always had a list, like, here's a good story. Now. I want to be sure that, you know, it was a two year program. So I waited a year into the program to be sure that the student was able to be successful and had the right ability to succeed through the program. You don't want to do an interview with somebody one month in the program, and then sometime them, they [00:10:45] withdraw.

[00:10:46] Mickey Baines: Um, so I waited, but I kept that running list, you know, once the major w you know, these were mostly at the time physical courses, so you actually go on site and we had seven locations. So I had a balance program, had a balance location, had balanced [00:11:00] story, um, and then something else. So, you know, did they, did they encounter an experience through the enrollment process or intercourse?

[00:11:07] Mickey Baines: That's in addition to their story that also provides a value. So, you know, we talk about. Um, duplicating content or [00:11:15] reusing content. So how can I take that one interview and get the story and then get other types of content from it? Um, and so those are all being balanced. So I just had a, you know, a list of students to kind of follow and to find the.

[00:11:29] Mickey Baines: Balance when [00:11:30] someone came up because instead of saying, Hey, here are five testimonials for the year. Is it's. They last for 12 to 18 months. And they were just new ones coming out every so often I might do one fell swoop of recording, um, for efficiency in that process of collecting the [00:11:45] stories. But I rolled them out every three to four months, a new one would come out.

[00:11:49] Mickey Baines: And so, you know, that's, you know, when, when you get those, you know, when you know that story, how do you draw? You know, I'm thinking, how do we draw that story from that student? What is their, [00:12:00] what do they like talking about? So if I know what really drives them and gets them excited, then I'm going to have them some personal questions to get them opened up then that I'm going to jump into those things that get them excited.

[00:12:13] Mickey Baines: And then I'll pivot to [00:12:15] their experience with the program. And. And get to the story because then they're ready to tell and have a nice open and less stressful conversation you got to get through that stressful moment. Some people aren't comfortable with cameras, [00:12:30] um, and you've got to get past that. And somehow you have to find a way to either have enough storytellers, students that can tell those stories so that if someone can get past that hurdle, the camera and lights in their face.

[00:12:44] Mickey Baines: Then [00:12:45] you don't necessarily have to use that or you don't have to promote it in the same way and you've got something else in its place. 

[00:12:49] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Yeah. W uh, for first and foremost, I love the fact that like, during the actual admissions process, as you're reading student, uh, essays, you were, you were [00:13:00] already van sort of like tagging students as like, oh, this would be a good person to a year from now.

[00:13:05] Zach Busekrus: Right. Follow up with, I feel like that's anyone listening to that is if you're not doing already, that's a really simple thing for your team to do find some sort of, you know, easy way. Dump this information into [00:13:15] a shared Google sheet. If you don't have a CRM, that, that w that would make sense to tag something like this in, but like, that is, that is so, so, so, you know, simple.

[00:13:25] Zach Busekrus: Um, 

[00:13:26] Mickey Baines: how many times have you started a conversation with a client and said, okay, do you have people [00:13:30] in 

[00:13:30] Zach Busekrus: mind? Yeah. Crickets. Yeah, exactly. They, they don't, they don't know where to start, you know, or, or where they start is like, oh, Let's start with like, you know, the admissions, the student workers in the admissions office, which is fine.

[00:13:43] Zach Busekrus: Like it just because they're [00:13:45] there, they're literally down the hall. Right. And so you can just go bug them. But, so I love that. I love 

[00:13:49] Mickey Baines: starting. That may not be the best 

[00:13:51] Zach Busekrus: story. Yeah. Yeah. But I, but I, but I liked the, I love the going through. In, in the, uh, in the admissions process as reading student [00:14:00] essays, tagging them, storing them, whatever you got to do to make sure that you can come back and reference them later.

[00:14:04] Zach Busekrus: The other thing I was thinking about as you were talking about, you know, following up with students and some people have really powerful stories, but they're not particularly comfortable sharing them or sharing them on camera. Um, I [00:14:15] w it'd be cool to come up with some sort of rubric for your team, like a, uh, numeric, like one to five.

[00:14:21] Zach Busekrus: A to, you know, you know, what is it a, B, C, D E E M, where it was something like, you know, this, this, this student is a [00:14:30] one a, they haven't one being, they have an incredible story, right? Like amazing story. And a they're very comfortable talking about it. Right. Versus this is an incredible story. The story is a one, but you know, this student they're, they're, they're a C or a D [00:14:45] right.

[00:14:45] Zach Busekrus: In terms of comfortability. And that way you just have a basic score, right. And you're, whoever's going to be conducting the interview, whether it's another student, whether it's a S you know, a team member or staff, whoever it is, you know, whether it's someone from your marketing department, they can kind of go in [00:15:00] understanding, oh, okay.

[00:15:00] Zach Busekrus: This is where this person is at. Right. And that, to your earlier point, that dictates right. You have a powerful story. You've got a one story, but your D in terms of comfortability, Great. We need to ask Mickey six different questions before the one question that we [00:15:15] really want to ask him, right. Versus Zach is a, a one a, you can come in and like ask him that, you know, hard hitting question from day one from the second you sit down and he'll deliver it.

[00:15:25] Zach Busekrus: Right? Like, so I wonder if that's sort of just a super helpful, simple framework [00:15:30] or rubric that folks could use when they're thinking about, um, how to, best to draw out the story of. 

[00:15:37] Mickey Baines: Another little intricate detail, his energy level. Some people are nervous and they just shut down and they don't [00:15:45] speak, or they're too quiet.

[00:15:45] Mickey Baines: Some, and I would say me, I talk too fast. I can get fidgety. And so how do I lean into understanding that pace and that energy level and help balance it out. So if they're like me, they're start jumping in. It's like, [00:16:00] so let's talk about. Next question, you slow down to help slow them down. How can you, because I don't necessarily, let's be fair.

[00:16:10] Mickey Baines: I got my list of people because I was overseeing the program. I had to read the, the [00:16:15] applications, um, because I was the final reviewer there for acceptance. I was also in charge of the marketing PR efforts. And so I, as I had those, so, um, and also I have a performance background. My undergrad is in theater, right.

[00:16:27] Mickey Baines: So, so I already know. [00:16:30] Some approach to looking at it from these lens. And so, you know, as I'm thinking about the PR person and how they're telling the story, this, I don't like to give 'cause, then, then, then they, it becomes a little forced from them, the person, because they're not a professional speaker or [00:16:45] performer.

[00:16:45] Mickey Baines: Um, and so, you know, when you. Feedback, you know, can you slow down? Sometimes it be their sentences. They might slow down, but still become forced. And so can I help inform their pace [00:17:00] by creating the pace for them and slowing down? Um, 

[00:17:05] Zach Busekrus: and what that does to you is it prevents the whole like, oh, well now I'm so.

[00:17:10] Zach Busekrus: On trying to slow down that I am leaving out like the [00:17:15] parts of the story that are actually the most interesting, because I'm so focused on my cadence. 

[00:17:20] Mickey Baines: Yes. Yes. So, and, and I think those are our key and I'm trying to remember how I prepared the students. I mean, I didn't tell them exactly what I was going [00:17:30] to ask.

[00:17:30] Mickey Baines: I would tell them, you know, Uh, you know, this is the story that we'll hone in on. We'll spend some time on this, um, so that they would have some preparation to it, but just like we are with [00:17:45] this show, my preference is unscripted. Yeah. Yeah. And I've, and I would have. Some people I worked with in the past that wouldn't come at school.

[00:17:56] Mickey Baines: Where's the script. Like I have questions, but I have [00:18:00] not given the student talking specific talking points. My job, if I'm doing the interviews is to pull that out of them. If I'm, if I have semester in the interview, this is what I want you to pull out of them. We're not going to tell them to say this. We want it to get them as close to this as natural and as [00:18:15] organically as possible.

[00:18:16] Mickey Baines: 'cause then it's, it's more real. And I want it to be real, even if it's a real student real story. If you script it, it's not authentic at the time it's being said that could have been sent by an actor at that point. Yeah. [00:18:30] And I think, you know, in order to get that truth, the true emotion out of it, if it's a good story, it's going to have some emotion, excitement, sad sadness, or appreciation joy.

[00:18:43] Mickey Baines: To get that out. It has to be an [00:18:45] organically 

[00:18:45] Zach Busekrus: told story. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. And it's funny. I, I was thinking about this earlier this week. Um, from really from the context of the interviewer. Um, because I was thinking in any given week I'm, I'm [00:19:00] recording three to five interviews, three to five podcasts typically.

[00:19:03] Zach Busekrus: Right. And so some of these people like you, I know, I know really well, and we can hop on and literally I'm texting you, uh, two minutes before we hop on and say, Hey, what do you want to talk about? Right. And we came up with this topic, right. And, [00:19:15] and that's fine other, and that's because we built a Bo a rapport.

[00:19:17] Zach Busekrus: We've been doing this for a while, other people, right. Who. There might be a, a great leader. They might be a, a COO or even a university president and used to talking. But the way that they're used to [00:19:30] talking is very polished. Right. It's very prepared. It's very, it's very canned. Right. And so I always try, you know, I have to do the work of trying to draw them out so that they sort of meet the culture of whatever the show is.

[00:19:44] Zach Busekrus: Right. So [00:19:45] I was thinking about this. A few things came to mind of how w lessons, I guess I've learned as, as a host and things that I'm continuing continually trying to challenge myself to do better. Um, and [00:20:00] the, the first, the first thing that came to mind was just how important it is to transition topics.

[00:20:07] Zach Busekrus: Within the context of a conversation with some sort of related anecdote, right? Like you do this actually, you know, very, very well. [00:20:15] I think that when it comes to you moving on from question one, to question two, even as, even, especially if you're interviewing somebody, that's not that comfortable or you can, you can kind of tell that this is one of the first times they they're being interviewed, finding some way to connect with what [00:20:30] they just said.

[00:20:31] Zach Busekrus: Right. Even, even like in, for 30 seconds, right? Can it, it makes them more comfortable. It increases rapport. And then you can use that to neatly transition to that next question or that next topic that you want. So that, that [00:20:45] connection I think is really important. And then sort of the, the, the second thing that comes to mind is just how important it is to ask those.

[00:20:56] Zach Busekrus: Follow up questions, ask the question that comes to mind after [00:21:00] somebody has said something, even if it seems a little bit like inappropriate or it could be perceived as like prying, right. A little bit too deeply. I have found over the course of [00:21:15] my time, podcasting that sometimes I'm, I'm hesitant to put people on the spot like that, but I've found.

[00:21:22] Zach Busekrus: That's often where the best insights or like the most magical moments of the storyline is like it, they lie behind that [00:21:30] follow-up question. And of course you always need to give your interviewee the permission to, to, to not answer right, or to deflect and that's totally appropriate. But I think our job as.

[00:21:42] Zach Busekrus: As the interviewer is trying to collect these stories is [00:21:45] actually to ask those tough questions or those, or there's, you know, slightly more deep, uh, personal questions. Because again, that's typically what our prospects or whoever, the audience that we're delivering the content to. That's what, that's, what they really connect with.

[00:21:59] Zach Busekrus: As you, [00:22:00] as you mentioned, like that's where, that's where the emotion really lives. So I don't know. Those are just two simple things that I've learned is like an interviewer. Continue, you know, to try to, to try to get better at, and they can be hard. They can be hard to do well, but I think that if you can do these, these [00:22:15] couple things, well, you're gonna one connect better with who you're talking to.

[00:22:19] Zach Busekrus: And then two, you're going to have way better content to deliver to that, to that prospect and prospect or whoever your target audience 

[00:22:25] Mickey Baines: is. Oh, share one of the things that when we're doing. [00:22:30] Yeah, we're doing the video. I'm also capturing still images. Um, and one of the things I learned at from year one to year two and I, that I, I know I have to carry it with me now.

[00:22:39] Mickey Baines: Cause I had a photographer there and I have a videographer there, two different setups, but I didn't want the [00:22:45] photographer taking the photo until after the story was told and I needed the photographer to hear the story because the image. That we give the person need to include images that match the tone of the story.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] Mickey Baines: If it is a sad but inspirational story, I want to get some serious images. I want to get some in. And so I wanted the photographer to hear that I had an excellent photographer. Um, That we use, that was so good at that. Um, and I [00:23:15] would have him listen in and then he would go while we're setting up the next person, he would go do the photos with them and get that done in 15 minutes and then come back in and hear.

[00:23:25] Mickey Baines: And it was, I 

[00:23:26] Zach Busekrus: love that. I love that idea. 

[00:23:28] Mickey Baines: Like it just, [00:23:30] it helps because you're, you know, when you're telling, when a student is telling a story and you're going to, you're going to have steel images with texts, talking about that story, and then you're gonna have the video. And I, I just, I just thought that it mattered.

[00:23:43] Mickey Baines: I thought instead of always [00:23:45] having, you know, some fancy smiling headshots, let's get some serious ones in there. If it made sense. If someone had a really funny story, then let's get some silly, funny images. And then you also get the behind the scenes stuff, which you also can use for social media and other purposes.[00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Mickey Baines: To kind of help with extra content. You know, it was great catching up with so-and-so who graduated three years ago. Can't wait to share his story with us. Something 

[00:24:08] Zach Busekrus: like that. Yeah. I love that. Well, Hey man, this was fun. Uh, short and sweet, but hopefully I think that there were at least a couple [00:24:15] of good nuggets for folks to walk away with.

[00:24:16] Zach Busekrus: Storytelling is super, super important to, uh, to just really how we can. Generally his people and especially important as it pertains to student recruitment. So hopefully you folks, uh, you, you list those of you listening in and got a nugget or two, [00:24:30] uh, as always got any feedback for us or any topics you want to hear more about, uh, ping us on social media, respond to, you know, you can email us directly whatever's most convenient, but, um, thank you, sir.

[00:24:40] Zach Busekrus: Again for your time. Have a wonderful weekend and we'll chat more. 

[00:24:44] Mickey Baines: [00:24:45] Thanks Zach. And thanks to everyone for listening.