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Podcasts The Higher Ed Geek Episode 181
Kate Watts on Supporting Career Growth for Underrepresented Students
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Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Dustin Ramsdell: I am excited to have a conversation today. Definitely talking about a very, uh, I think kind of zeitgeisty topic. You know, something a lot of people are thinking about. A lot of people are devoting time and attention to, uh, well-deserved, certainly, you know, how do we. Uh, create really positive career outcomes for, uh, folks who are, uh, pursuing higher education in all its forms.
[00:00:27] You know, uh, short form credentials and certificates and degrees, and all these sorts of things that are sort of in the mix nowadays. And, you know, as we're emerging from, uh, the, the darkest steps of the pandemic. So, um, excited to have that conversation today. Give that kind of time and space. But, uh, we will start out, as we always do, have our guests introduce themselves and give a brief overview of their professional background and how they get to be where they are.
[00:00:49] Katie Watts: Sure. Hi everybody. My name is Kate Watts and I'm currently the executive director of a nonprofit called Advancing Women in. And so if you think about the organization, the mission is really [00:01:00] in the name. So personally, I am somebody who is really interested in exploring ideas and concepts around, um, things like economic mobility, personal independence, and how we can really equip individuals with the fundamental skills, um, and knowledge and networks needed where they can really take their curiosity and make the careers and like the life outcomes that they're looking for.
[00:01:25] So how I got into this work was originally I was somebody who started in the higher education sort of field as a student in undergrad. My work study position was at the alumni office, um, at my college. And I spent a lot of time thinking about how do the networks skills, connections that you have, um, enable somebody for this lifelong.
[00:01:50] At that point, um, I had a mentor at the office who really thought, Kate, you should pursue a career in higher education. That feels like something that's for [00:02:00] you. And I remember looking at Steve and going, I am not gonna be somebody who never leaves campus like that. That just isn't in my, isn't in my wheelhouse.
[00:02:09] So that was 2008 when I graduated. Then went on, worked at some nonprofits for a while and then went, oh, I'm really thinking about being back in this learning community space. Ended up pursuing a. Degree in higher education administration policy, got really interested in questions of access success, who has, um, the ability to be able to access various conditions, um, lifelong learning, et cetera.
[00:02:41] Spent about a decade in higher education policy within the state of Tennessee at a few different organizations. Still very interested in. Individual learning path to success, what are the conditions that really enable that? And ended up moving then [00:03:00] into the work that I do now with advancing women in tech.
[00:03:03] That is still very much around how do you create the learning environments, conditions, communities, networks, skills, to be able to equip those that you work with to be able to get to their next best step. So I see it as all very much. Connected and very much also aligned with my why and how I approach things.
[00:03:27] Dustin Ramsdell: The, the work that you've been doing over all this time I think is so much of the story of higher education over like the past couple of decades. And honestly, I just feel like maybe just, you know, since 2000, just sort of like, okay, like people are acknowledging like we built something great. How do we make sure as many people can access it and access positive outcomes from it, uh, as possible.
[00:03:46] So there's a lot of different dynamics of that, of just literally being able to get into college, choose to right college, succeed while you're at college. You know, set up for success after college. So just focusing in on a very particular portion of that, of [00:04:00] an underrepresented group in a particular field and those sort of things that, you know, there's, there's a lot of complexities there.
[00:04:06] So I think if you wanna kinda expand on the work that you're doing in your organization with advancing women in tech. Uh, so what are some of those dynamics that you're really trying to confront and solve?
[00:04:15] Katie Watts: Ait Advancing Women in Tech is a nonprofit, um, organization. And I also think about it as a professional learning community.
[00:04:23] So it's really focused on diversifying tech leadership. Um, we are really focused as an organization on supporting the retention in the field of women. Um, so for instance, a recent report by Accenture. Found that about half of women who enter the field end up leaving to pursue other sorts of fields by the age of 35.
[00:04:48] And so I really personally connect this to why are people leaving? What is not being met, especially when it's such a high growth, um, high opportunity field. [00:05:00] What can be changed in the culture and the benefits and the support to make sure that those who have the technical skills to be able to succeed are also finding the conditions, um, needed to be able to stay in the field.
[00:05:13] So some of the ways that AIT really works to equip and support in this, um, if you think about the. Career pathway because higher ed people love pathways. From the earliest sort of stage. We really are focused on how to upskill and equip. and I'd say that the population that we're really looking at are those who are in their mid-career or more upskilling type content.
[00:05:40] So we produce and support a number of courses, um, and learning opportunities in cloud computing in engineering management. So you're going from being an individual contributor to how to be a great people manager and also within product management. So we provide those courses pretty much open [00:06:00] access, um, via course.
[00:06:02] So globally, so to date, we've served about 50,000 individuals through that sort of open access field going, um, potentially down a little bit in sort of age experience. We recently were able to get those courses, um, credit recommended by the American Council on Education, so Ace, so that they are worth six credits towards a baccalaureate degree, just with their, that recognition of.
[00:06:31] How do we equip adults, learners, um, wherever they are, to be able to get some credit for their learning experiences and recognition of like the sort of like quality and intentionality around what we're building there. So those are our, our one space that we work in. Um, but where I'd say we really are focused is like, how do you take that learning and put it.
[00:06:56] To connections, networks, community, shared [00:07:00] space. So both provide the opportunities for sort of peer-to-peer support and connections. And then also we provide many opportunities for vertical connections. So who is somebody a few steps ahead of you that you can be learning from sharing, um, equipping. And so we do that through formal mentorship programs and also something that we're very intentional about.
[00:07:25] If you think about how much representation matters, especially if you are from an underrepresented background and don't necessarily see people who you identify with. Um, as leaders, we're very, very intentional about finding technical women leaders to be sharing their expertise through our courses, panels, connections, and just always finding ways to elevate that.
[00:07:54] those who are thinking about entering the field or staying or having considerations are going, [00:08:00] oh, , that person has experiences that I can identify with and they've been able to find a place. It's very much driven by the mission of how do you, how do you support, and how do you equip individuals, um, who are currently in the middle, murky trying to be retaining so that they get to the point where they are able to make the influence and the decisions on the products that we are all using and in a day-to-day basis.
[00:08:29] Dustin Ramsdell: I like that strategy of sort of approaching it in sort of a simple but flexible way where, like you said, like somebody can kind of just jump in these courses to kind of get a context for the space, but if they are someone who maybe never went or stopped out or something, they could, you know, sort of have a leg up.
[00:08:47] Moving towards a, uh, bachelor's degree in a relevant mm-hmm. field, but that's not like a requirement. You know, you could just sort of, you know, have that learning opportunity to, uh, support you being like a career changer in any [00:09:00] of those sort of, you know, social capital pieces, which are such like a com, an important sort of catalyst and ingredient in this, uh, formula.
[00:09:08] You know, that's gonna help everybody. You know, like however they sort of come in where it is like, yeah, I'm like in the middle of my career or, um, you know, I am just starting out. The social capital is super important, you know, especially for, uh, underrepresented groups. So that's great that you Yeah. Can have that sort of bifurcated, uh, strategy where, you know, someone may benefit more or less from either or.
[00:09:28] They, they absolutely need both. Um, Yeah, really gonna set people up for success. Cuz like you said, I think, you know, since this is something that I know a lot of people have been kind of putting their heads together on for a while, I think like, I feel like people might by like, chastised me for this or something, but I'm almost like, like the access piece I think we've uncovered is almost like the easy part.
[00:09:47] Like just getting people in like, cause that's almost just like marketing promotion, being like, Hey, you're welcome here too. Jump on in the water's fine. And it's like, yeah, they're gonna, they could get in and get started, but then like, are they gonna finish, you know, their credential, you know, finish that [00:10:00] program to get it.
[00:10:00] But then like once they're actually in the field, like you said, like some people kind of bail out because it might be, oh, well I'm encountering something that I just feel really ill-equipped for. I don't have, you know, those near peers, those mentors, those people who could help me guide through it, where it's like, yeah, you know, I had to, I had to deal with that.
[00:10:15] So this is how I sort of overcame it. Um, And those sort of things, or you know, just seeing that the path has been treaded, uh, by someone else, I think is, is something that could, you know, have someone say where it's just like, eh, I don't know. You know, this is, you know, a gainfully employing job that I've worked towards.
[00:10:32] Like, I don't know if this is just gonna be the best fit for the long term. So I think, you know, that is, Now that like one, like things take time, obviously, you know, to kind of ripple out. Uh, I think at this point, yeah, we're seeing maybe some of those people who are like some of the first, you know, people who are sort of benefiting from a lot of, uh, organizations, work in this space, be working in tech for a while and hitting, you know, friction and roadblocks and stuff.
[00:10:56] So, um, You know, just like you said, creating that [00:11:00] community and everything is, you know, I'd imagine super valuable for a lot of different people, for a lot of different, you know, reasons and everything as uh, as time goes on.
[00:11:09] Katie Watts: Yeah. And sort of expanding on that, I think about what you said around retention, access, success, and.
[00:11:16] The importance of looking at things from a system sort of level and not just at, say, the institution only level or the company level. Of course, you need to be looking at using your data at multiple points to be able to say your com, your school, your. Your company, et cetera, is not retaining, um, individuals who are under, who have underrepresented identities at the same levels.
[00:11:40] Like yes, dig into that, like and ask your why. But then also on the individual level, I think about the importance of. . Like I said, the skills that you develop carry with you and your employer and your company is likely to change multiple times during your life, whether that [00:12:00] be through economic sort of conditions, things that are happening in the market, your own individual.
[00:12:05] Wants, needs finding like your best culture fit, um, and where you're going to be taking that input. So not just measuring success at the company sort of level, but our individuals having the ability to get to where they wanna go and develop and grow in that space. So, I don't necessarily think about X big name company and how are they doing by this as the sole measure of of success, but it's more how are people feeling in this industry, and especially if they are.
[00:12:40] Well equipped and to have the knowledge and training to be able to move forward. What does it mean if they're not?[00:13:00]
[00:13:51] Dustin Ramsdell: You know, as a systems kind of approach with all this and, you know, helping through that whole pathway and everything like that. So I feel like this will be kind of the big question we, [00:14:00] we, we chew on for a bit in this conversation, but like, you know, how can. Industry in higher ed sort of like work better together to sort of support these career aspirations that people have in this space.
[00:14:11] Cause I think, again, there's so many kind of dynamics in this system. Um, and I think we're, we're seeing again a lot of these sort of start to blossom and, you know, be certainly a herald and celebrated a lot, which I think is, is great that these are, you know, great opportunities for both higher ed and, you know, these different companies and everything.
[00:14:28] But just, what are your thoughts about like, sort of what are the. Practices with these collaborations that do actually benefit, you know, underrepresented identities.
[00:14:37] Katie Watts: Gosh, I mean, there are so many different opportunities to be able to be more collaborative and more systems forward or innovative in this space.
[00:14:47] Um, if I think about this more from a product oriented sort of orientation, um, just coming from the organization that I'm with and those that I'm working. For, like, there's [00:15:00] always the concept of working backwards from your customer and figuring out what is it that your buyer is needing. And I know that that feels a little bit ugly or murky.
[00:15:11] Um, at, at times in the higher ed space and also higher ed, a lot of times the institutions have a number of challenges because you have so many buyers or customers, or your user is not necessarily. Your buyer, but you are measured by your user or your students success. So it's, it's all convoluted and there's not necessarily the financial incentives tied at this at the current moment to.
[00:15:44] Supporting like specific targets of students from the institutional level. I could see how if you are an institutional leader who is looking at your bottom line, you might have the moral, like this is the [00:16:00] right thing to do, but also thinking about, okay, I need to be making investments here, here and here.
[00:16:07] My resources are small. How do I prioritize, um, the programs, system supports that can be really supporting a targeted group of students and you could quickly find perhaps that is not within your own organizational resources and budgets at this moment. I think, um, industry or employers can sometimes think of it that way as well.
[00:16:34] However, I think if you. Really just looking at it from a what are your own resources space, um, and seeing that as a limited per, you are really limiting the opportunity that's available to everybody you interact with. And there are a number of intermediaries, spaces, people that can be connecting. They don't necessarily have to be within [00:17:00] your own physical region.
[00:17:02] Um, it, there are large networks of support. Where you can find supports for targets, um, populations of your students. So whether that be organizations like Advancing Women in Tech, if you are looking to best expose. Learners to various opportunities in the field to keep them encouraged to maintain like, oh, and here's why you would want to explore a career in cloud computing.
[00:17:32] This is what it actually looks like. Um, there are many opportunities for your faculty staff, um, to be learning and growing without necessarily creating a program that you are offering on your own. I just, I think so much of it is keeping a curious and a yes we can figure this out, sort of orientation, a teamwork, like we don't have [00:18:00] to be the lead on everything, but like keeping a learner-centric or user-centric mindset of what we want is for like the user to have this experience.
[00:18:13] And it doesn't necessarily matter how that. Gotten to rather than a, we deliver this, um, because that disconnects from the why and it's all about, it should be how do we cobble together the resources, the tools to be able to meet each individual user or learner, um, student where they are. There are so many opportunities to be able to think through how do we best support.
[00:18:46] and as soon as you take off the limitations of like, here are my resources, here is what we can offer, um, the more you make possible for others.
[00:18:56] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah. Well, and I think a couple of things come to mind for me. Like [00:19:00] one, it's like you have to kind of have that one. Yeah. Maybe like sort of the imagination or just sort of the.
[00:19:06] The open-mindedness or sort of humility, whatever word you want to use to sort of just be like, you know, we're not gonna have all the answers we can, we can't do everything all at once, but let's try to, yeah, use our imagination and walk, chew gum at the same time kind of thing. Like let's maybe try to do the sort of low or no cost things where it's like, yeah, you get a guest speaker.
[00:19:26] you know, to come into different classes, to sort of just, you know, uh, tell their story to a captive audience in, into the data science space or something. You know, for example, um, you try to engage your, uh, alumni who are working in that area, in a company. And like, I know a lot of times it's just like, you know, Just in terms of like the PR and like sort of the image branding, whatever.
[00:19:48] It's like, yes, this institution, and if they can put their logo next to some other, you know, flashy tech company or whatever, it's like, that's good for them. It's good for the tech company to be like, oh, look how great we are. We're, you know, devoting time to, you know, engaging [00:20:00] with our community and all that.
[00:20:01] So it's like you kinda have to like, just start somewhere and like, maybe it's starting there while you're. Working with some of those industry leaders and subject matter experts to provide input on, you know, a curriculum refresh or, um, Different things like that. And then, you know, maybe it is trying to get more, you know, formalized commitments for mentors or internships and those sort of things, which can like really be the tangible, uh, benefits and gateways for a variety of people to get involved.
[00:20:30] But like, like you said, like there is like the overriding kind of umbrella of like the philosophy of, you know, understanding that certainly when you're starting out, there may be a limitation of resource and those sort of things, but I think. The byproduct sort of in sort of a zigzaggy way and it's kind of squishy and all that.
[00:20:49] Mm-hmm. is like, you are creating an environment that recruits, you know, more diverse students, perhaps more adult learners, career changers. Mm-hmm. , like all these sort of things. Providing them with a higher quality [00:21:00] experience. They're more likely, it's to retain and have a positive outcome at the end. And that might be hard to connect them well, because we did this, this happened and this happened and now like whatever.
[00:21:07] But it's like you're just sort of like, you know, making sort of. Again, like sort of the social capital or sort of, you know, shining a light on the treaded path where some people, you know, especially if they're first gen and their underrepresented identity and you know, they're really getting outta their comfort zone because they know that this is an area that's a higher growth, gainfully employing, uh, sector of the workforce and everything.
[00:21:30] Like there's so much that we can do to kind of scaffold them up. And, you know, for me, I know I am, I'm talking and sort of mixing all my metaphors and all that, but like, you know, it's. I think that's the main takeaway for me is like there's a lot of different components that sort of are gonna come at it from different sides to help support as they grow so that hopefully, you know, they are really teed up for success for the long term while they're moving on.
[00:21:54] But even, you know, cuz like part of what you acknowledge obviously is like, you know, supporting people who [00:22:00] are pursuing like a bachelor's, but you know, anymore just like lifelong learning. It's like, well, yeah, like what can we do that can also be an investment that people may sort. You know, return back to if we are doing, you know, this event or this workshop or this seminar with an alum who works at some, you know, tech company or something, it's like, I mean, invite alumni, like if they wanna come back and hear about somebody who's been working in the field for 10 years, they've been working for five.
[00:22:22] And it's like, again, sort of that near peer thing. Like it's again, just sort of clicking and kind of using that imagination where it's like, yeah, I mean, why, why don't we just like invite all the classes to. You know, would benefit from this. So current students come in, you get alumni coming in and you know, it's just a great learning opportunity and you know, yeah.
[00:22:38] Like put a course on Coursera, put, you know, do those sort of things where it's like, yeah, like anybody can access that, you know, that's, that's there. And that can be a way for you to have a learning opportunity to sort of, you know, strengthen an area that you may. Realize that you're lacking in, because it's like, oh, well yeah, now I've been working for 70 years.
[00:22:55] I'm starting to manage people. Like how do you do that? You know? Mm-hmm. , especially in a tech environment [00:23:00] that may be remote or, you know, different things like that. So, um, I think, to use one more metaphor, , uh, it's like trying to like get that snowball going, get that momentum to kind of push through that like initial inertia, which I think is what you were really kind of focusing on.
[00:23:19] There might be just a lot of sort of hand ringing or sort of like, ah, I don't know. Do we have the time? Do we have the resources? Do we have the money? It's like, I think it, once you start getting sort of a proof of concept or sort of showing that students are really benefiting from what you're doing, my hope would be people would be a lot more receptive to.
[00:23:38] Understanding that they may need to do things a little bit differently or do a little bit more to be truly inclusive of, you know, all the underrepresented identities who are pursuing, uh, you know, these careers and, and you know, the high growth technology fields and everything like that.
[00:23:54] Katie Watts: Yeah. I also think about it from the perspective of somebody who sat in on perhaps of [00:24:00] too few, many, um, strategic planning or like policy type discussions within the higher ed of, okay, how are we gonna get to X retention rate?
[00:24:08] Or how are we gonna move this on that? And there is very much the outcomes focused, like, what are we going to get to? But not as much, at least in those, in many of those rooms of. What are the needs of our learners and how do we, how do we build or cobble together the supports that are hitting them, um, that will really focus on that person as an individual and then grow like as the collective and then move forward?
[00:24:40] I feel like a lot of change management, at least that I saw within higher ed, was very much, how do we get to this outcome, but not necessarily. And that was also, I sh I'm not trying to speak at, for all experiences within the industry, like I only have had the experiences of the rooms I've been in. [00:25:00] But I, I would say
[00:25:01] Dustin Ramsdell: I, I don't think you're wrong.
[00:25:02] You're not wrong that, that's, that's typically, it's like how do we raise retention by 10%? And it's like, Yeah, they might get there, but I feel like that's like, maybe it's not the best place to start necessarily. It's just being like, we wanna raise retention by 10%. It's like, I think that would be the byproduct of like, I think what you're getting at is like if we're making these sort of investments in student experiences and different things like that, then you would likely have higher retention.
[00:25:24] Katie Watts: Yeah. And how do you get yourself to be able to make some small experiments or growth like on the faster thing without it being, oh my goodness, if we haven't hit this outcome by this piece, that it's, it's a wash, but how are you testing and. Evaluating on a shorter term sort of cycle, making some lower cost, um, opportunities, opportunities, investments by working with outside partners.
[00:25:50] Not necessarily turning everything into a huge program that is gonna require multi-year investment, but like you were saying, call the alumni or work [00:26:00] with, work with an external. Um, start to gauge if there's interest in this subject or this matter by, um, exploring different partnerships. Other sorts of providers before necessarily investing in the huge program creation yourself.
[00:26:15] Like getting some of the faster turnarounds to be able to see if there's the demand or interest is a space where I feel higher education can really start to learn from some of the industry. Um, not necessarily on what needs to be taught, but on how to approach
[00:26:33] Dustin Ramsdell: innovation. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. I meant to, uh, mention that as well.
[00:26:38] I appreciate you bringing it up where like, I. That is certainly a growth area for high education is that idea of like, oh, let's do some quick pilots and all that. And like I think the institutions who are and have been more gaining for that sort of thing are starting to be the ones that I think are kind of like drawing ahead of the pack and are gonna start to be the winners where like, you know, you're just seeing a lot of headlines, [00:27:00] uh, You know, with college closures and all that where I'm like, I'm sure there's a lot of institutions right now that are starting to feel the heat on their neck and are like, we need to do something.
[00:27:06] And it's like, we need to raise attention by 10% or something. And it's like, you might be kind of scrambling frantically to try to do all these things versus like, well if you had a couple of years ago start to play around in a sandbox a little bit, you would be sort of further along and saying, well, this is working for us, this isn't, so we're gonna do, you know, more of this, less of that.
[00:27:25] And. You know, those sort of things. So I think, yeah, I mean that, that's just another thing in terms of just sort of the, perhaps the collaboration opportunities or learning opportunities there is between kind of the, uh, you know, kind of workforce, higher ed connections and everything is sort of, you know, uh, leveraging the potential of, uh, you know, their capacity, their tools or, you know, um, way of doing things to kind of allow for you to potentially.
[00:27:53] Yeah, like prototype and test things and do pilots and stuff like that. But, um, something I wanted to ask too, like, [00:28:00] because I think we're, you know, we're talking about kind of, um, A lot of kind of what to do and, uh, sort of the overarching why, I guess sort of philosophically I'm, I'm curious more so maybe just like for this particular moment, cuz again, like people have been working at this in a while and I think, you know, sometimes things just kind of fall out of favor and all that.
[00:28:19] But like this I think has remained a fairly, uh, kind of relevant. Part of sort of higher ed, you know, what they need to do, who they need to be and everything. But to you, like what makes this moment such a crucial time? Cause I think like, you know, we're coming out of a, a pandemic, people are very cognizant of, you know, inflation, are we gonna handle, like, there's a lot of like, just economic sort of forces, I think swirling around in people's mind right now.
[00:28:45] So to you, why is this such a crucial moment to still be working at? You know, supporting these career aspirations for these underrepresented identities.
[00:28:58] Katie Watts: Yeah, I, I think that the [00:29:00] more things that change, um, or the more uncertainty that there is in the market, in careers, um, the more important it is to be able to encourage, um, consistent skill development, um, retention and empowerment.
[00:29:14] Individuals, especially whose backgrounds are underrepresented, um, in high growth industries or high paying industries. Um, for underrepresented identities in particular, I think about a lot around wealth gaps. Um, opportunity for financial independence, um, decision making. I think the ability to be able to pave your own financial path is one of the most empowering things that you can have.
[00:29:42] Um, especi. in the country that we live in, um, being able to cover your bases is pretty necessary and there's not necessarily as many supports that are provided to be able to do that. Um, so being able to rely on [00:30:00] your own brain skills mind, um, puts you up ahead of a number of others. Um, you always carry that with you.
[00:30:10] So also I think about. How high growth this, um, lake Tech is as a whole. And also it's not just its own industry, but it is connecting into everything that anybody is gonna do. Um, so whether that be you are going to become an entrepreneur and wanna have your own business, having an understanding of how to be able to save your own time, um, and be able to.
[00:30:39] Do X, Y, and Z at scale. Where to invest, how you are storing your data, your access, how you're getting to market. That is pretty critical, and you are gonna be using technology enabled tools at every step of the way. So being able to evaluate those decisions as a business owner. is critical, um, for the success or longevity of your [00:31:00] business.
[00:31:00] Um, if you are looking to be employed by a larger organization or even, um, a more traditional employer, chances are one of the challenges they're trying to figure out is a, how do I keep my data, um, secure? , how do we keep our systems up and operating and how do we cut costs as we're figuring out how to store various things and be able to continue to grow our revenue, for instance.
[00:31:26] So having the sense of what the, the tools are that are available, how pieces work, what is needed, what is not current trends, that's critical. Um, and it's changing at all times. Also with. For instance, you have all these opportunities that enable automation. Um, so everybody's talking about AI right now, and I think about my own team.
[00:31:51] So we are a small nonprofit. There's about eight of us who are working on a regular basis. None of us are quote unquote technical, [00:32:00] even though we enable technology, like the support of technical sort of careers. But it's really critical for me to have an understanding. What tools, um, so say like, AI enabled tools like script we're using on a regular basis to get some general, like drafts, transcripts out, and then be able to turn that into blogs, pieces, work that further supports our mission.
[00:32:29] And it's not that, it's the AI. Enabled thing that is the end product, but it helps us speed up the ability to get to that space. So it ends up taking a few hours of time to get something out the door instead of days. And so that also, um, being able to free up your own time. Enables you to have more of your own space to be able to enjoy the life that you're wanting.
[00:32:59] [00:33:00] So I think about just this whole massive growth. Everything that's being built and enabled. And it's, I really see it as those who have an understanding of how it all fits together. A willingness to continue to learn, develop skills as the ones who are gonna really be able to take advantage of that next step.
[00:33:21] And so I still can need to connect it to the importance of independence, um, and being able to direct your own space. and wanting that to be a value that's true for everyone. And I see this as the way to be able to get there,
[00:33:40] Dustin Ramsdell: acknowledging that basically any company is going to have a need for skills that you would develop in a, you know, data science program or something like that.
[00:33:49] So like that, that empowering people to have that in independence of, you know, knowing that they could probably land anywhere, work in a big or small company or any, you know, any [00:34:00] uh, area and everything. Because I think there's still a little bit of like residue that we have to like, kind of like wash off where people think like, oh, I'm doing a data science program.
[00:34:07] I'm just gonna go work at, you know, Google or Meta or something. And it's like, yeah baby. I mean, they hire a lot of people, they're big companies. Mm-hmm. and that's fine. But like, yeah, like you could start your own company and you have so much. Understanding of the tools and platforms and policies and procedures and stuff that you're gonna have to, you know, uh, implement to have just like good data hygiene and good, you know, security and, you know, all these sort of things.
[00:34:28] Um, cuz I mean, I used to support MBA students a few years ago and yeah, like all of that was integrated into, you know, these programs that are hyper-focused on, you know, business leaders and owners and stuff like that. So it's like, like you don't even need to necessarily obviously get your mba. You could if you want to, if that's the path you're going on, but it's just acknowledging that.
[00:34:47] You know, people just every day who are entering into the workforce are having to have some level of, uh, technical awareness and, and [00:35:00] expertise and everything, and using tools that make processes more efficient, you know, with stuff like AI and everything. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's really great stuff because I think it, it's just the.
[00:35:14] You know, the lifestyle and everything like that is what, you know, getting anybody over the hump of, you know, you've got the credential, you've got the learning, you've got sort of the social capital. So you, you've been able to get a career opportunity in, you know, the space that you wanna work in. You know, that does sort of open up the horizon for you to, uh, Just have that freedom of, of time and, you know, have that security and everything.
[00:35:37] Like there's very kind of like, almost kind of like emotional parts of this. Mm-hmm. in terms of like, the outcomes as much as just like, well they're, they're making this much money a year. They're like, cool. It's a, you know, they paid tuition. Like you're just doing kind of a objective calculation on, you know, Things like that.
[00:35:51] Um, because like that's something that was really enlightening for me learning years ago, where it was just like, like being poor is expensive. Being poor takes a lot of time because like, you just [00:36:00] can't get the help, you can't get, you know, Sort of just free of just sort of the, the burdens of, you know, working in like the service industry and inconsistent schedules and your closing and then opening and, you know, so it's like, when can I even get time to do anything that I want to do, um, in terms of my own learning and development, stuff like that.
[00:36:18] So if it's like, wow, like, okay, now I get to like, work from home. It's not a set schedule and like, you know, I've got like unlimited p t o and like, you know, just like different kind of perks and benefits and just sort of, That is sort of, you know, opening that up for people, uh, and just having those resources.
[00:36:34] Yeah. Like, I just love kind of the, the mentioning of just sort of the, the freedom, the independence, the empowerment, the autonomy. Like, you know, those are just sort of those power words of just like, yeah, like that's what we want as many people to be able to experience through doing this kind of work.
[00:36:49] Katie Watts: Yeah, and I'm even thinking about, just going further along of like the empowerment and development. So often we think about just like what your first job is that you're gonna [00:37:00] get directly out of, out of a sort of field as the thing that matters most. And I'm thinking about right now, AITs intentional work around supporting women founders, especially in the enterprise technology space.
[00:37:15] Um, so if you're thinking. , like various technologies and where women are especially underrepresented. It's very much in like in the b2b. Um, data, cyber, um, securities, a number of these more enterprise software levels. And to be able to understand what the problems are in that market and where to be building it really helps to have had experience at those sort of levels of companies or have an understanding of what it looks like to be an operator in that market.
[00:37:51] Say your end goal is not to be a data scientist at X large FANG company [00:38:00] for forever, but. Having the skills to be able to enter into that place, have an understanding of what the work looks like, um, what the customer acquisition strategies are like, what the sales cycles are, et cetera, can also better enable your independence at the backend.
[00:38:19] If you still have entrepreneurship and being a founder at your journey, because you now have a great sense of how to set up your business for success and to be solving a problem that a specific customer needs.
[00:38:31] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah, yeah. Um, cuz yeah, like one thing I just thought of too before we move on, like is just that idea of like, if you're kinda scratching your head where to start as like a higher ed leader.
[00:38:40] I think an easy. Thing hopefully that you could do is sort of pull a list of like, where do world of our alumni end up? Um, and I know like from my experience, like I went to University of Delaware, JP Mark, and Chase like is a huge employer in this area. And they just, you know, and I'm sure you know, this took time to develop and everything, but just sort of looking back, you know, I've been [00:39:00] graduated for 10 years.
[00:39:01] Uh, like that is just a, a relationship that they've had that I think has just continued to sort of blossom and be a really great. Support, especially for, uh, their school of business and everything. So like, that could just be like, okay, well let's like approach them because it's like, Hey, a lot of our students graduate and end up working for you.
[00:39:17] Like, you know, are there people that you could like, sort of send our way to do that thing of, you know, coming back to speak and all that? Because it, it could be that you're trying to look for that needle on the haystack, you know, to begin with. But, you know, that's just something I thought of when you were kind of thinking of like those external partners.
[00:39:30] It could be like, You know, starting those conversations. And again, it could be just any level of sort of commitment of where you start on either side of sort of supporting each other and everything. But, um, so I guess in, in that sort of mindset of trying to give, uh, folks kind of some things to think about or homework or, you know, whatever else to kinda look into, um, are there resources of your own or others you'd wanna share?
[00:39:53] You know, books, articles, podcasts, whatever, um, that we could include the show.
[00:39:58] Katie Watts: Certainly. Um, [00:40:00] so of course I'd be remiss if I didn't mention, um, advancing Women in Tech. We have our courses on Coursera, um, that are easy to find in cloud computing, in product management and, and engineering management. Um, we also have a number of just like podcasts, resources, speakers, et cetera, to connect with, um, push out various opportunities that are available there.
[00:40:23] So advancing women in tech org. Would love to hear from you there. Um, I feel like some of my favorite higher ed books that come into mind, um, I loved the years that Matter Most by Paul Tuf read that a few years ago and just really loved how it focused on individual student stories. Um, had that centering there and also really connected it to the system.
[00:40:50] That higher ed, that any of these sorts of systems industries have the potential to be a powerful engine of mobility, um, [00:41:00] and can really make a change in somebody's life. Um, provide access to opportunity space, move people from. , um, into affluence. Um, and to be thinking about how are you really connecting and making sure that that vision is possible is something that I think about all the time.
[00:41:22] Um, a book I read recently that I loved in finding it super helpful for thinking from a individual user's perspective on how to use various tech tools to automate, um, save your time. And Free Up Your Work Is Free Time by Jenny Blake. Um, she is a former, um, Google individual who now owns a small business.
[00:41:47] Um, does a lot of thought partnership, um, especially for women entrepreneurs. Um, I loved that she also wrote a book called Pivot Around How do you transition in your career and take things forward, [00:42:00] um, still being you. So recommend those two pieces and then for having a great understanding of why. It matters who has access to venture capital?
[00:42:11] Who is building, who is leading, um, who is making decisions in this space? I loved, um, and highly recommend when Women Lead by Julia Borson. Um, that book is probably the first one that really put into my head as somebody who is not coming from the tech raise money, um, venture sort of background of why we should all care.
[00:42:38] Um, who is building, who has, who has access, and how pieces are funded. Um, so. Brings that tech industry perspective into the, these are the products, tools, spaces that we're all using, and it matters for us all. Um, what are the values, characteristics, and opportunities available [00:43:00] for leadership to reflect the population that that's being served?
[00:43:06] Dustin Ramsdell: So much good content out there. I, I, you know, uh, consume a lot of the, uh, higher ed podcasts out there and everything. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's just good to have a good healthy universe diet of, uh, you know, different books and, uh, resources and stuff. So I appreciate you, uh, sharing those out. But, um, we will end as we always do.
[00:43:23] Uh, so you've obviously just shared a lot of great insights and thoughts and, uh, just sort of philosophies around, uh, this work and why it's important and. You know how best to approach and everything, but we like to always give our guests sort of an opportunity for a final thought or call to action, uh, on this topic to end the episode.
[00:43:39] So, uh, the floor is yours.
[00:43:42] Katie Watts: Always look for ways to put the learner customer user at the center and build out experiences that help support, that helps support them. Um, nobody can be all things, no institution can be all things. Um, it is. Setting yourself up for [00:44:00] disappointment and failure if you are trying to take it all on yourself.
[00:44:04] But by collaborating with others, um, you can make a heck of a lot of things possible. So we come together as communities and spaces to be able to enable that. And so finding ways to use your time intentionally to equip, enable empower. And support others, um, from your vantage point and the resources that you offer and align with others who have similar goals, but a different way of approaching things, um, can make a lot possible.
[00:44:35] So it's, it's important work and keep at
[00:44:39] Dustin Ramsdell: it. Great sentiment to end on, uh, to encourage folks in this, uh, in this work. And like I said, love, ways to connect with you and, uh, the stuff you mentioned in the show notes. So, um, just thank you so much for your time, all that you shared and, uh, you know, for doing this work.
[00:44:53] So, um, yeah, I
[00:44:55] Katie Watts: appreciate it. Awesome. Thank you Dustin. I greatly appreciated the chance for the conversation.[00:45:00]
[00:45:04] Hey y'all. Zack here from Enrollify. If you like this podcast, chances are you'll like other Enrollify shows too. Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional.
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About the Episode
The what's what...
Our guest for this bonus episode is Kate Watts, Executive Director of Advancing Women in Tech. Kate shares insights into this complicated work, why it is important, and how best to support underrepresented students to get the necessary technical knowledge and social capital to succeed well into their careers.
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About the Enrollify Podcast Network
The Higher Ed Geek is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you’ll like other Enrollify shows too!
Our podcast network is growing by the month and we’ve got a plethora of marketing, admissions, and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks all designed to empower you to be a better higher ed professional.
Our shows feature a selection of the industry’s best as your hosts. Learn from Jaime Hunt, Allison Turcio, Corynn Myers, Dustin Ramsdell, Terry Flannery, Jaime Gleason and many more.
Learn more about The Enrollify Podcast Network at podcasts.enrollify.org. Our shows help higher ed marketers and admissions professionals find their next big idea — come and find yours!
About the Podcast
Dustin Ramsdell is a Higher EdTech content creator and influencer who aims to drive meaningful conversations with top leaders in the field. His show, The Higher Ed Geek Podcast, explores all the nuances of higher education, with a focus on innovative technology and practices from his fellow professionals. Dustin also currently works as the Community Engagement Lead at Pathify. He loves craft beer, good pizza, and sustainability. Dustin lives happily in Delaware with his wife, Jenn, their daughter, Ellie.
Kate Watts is the Executive Director of Advancing Women in Tech (AWIT) where she develops an industry-leading upskilling content curriculum for women and underrepresented people in tech. Kate brings more than a decade of higher education experience and connections to AWIT’s Institute for Career Acceleration which includes skills-based workshops and courses for its members across the globe to accelerate their careers. Prior to AWIT, Kate held a series of higher education and advocacy roles with the State of Tennessee, Tennessee SCORE, and The Tennessee College Access and Success Network.
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