Catherine Friday on Increasing Inclusivity with Digital Education

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Dustin Ramsdell: Our conversation today will be taking a little bit more of a global perspective on higher education, uh, which will be kinda a refreshing take, uh, since, you know, so much of what we cover on this show, uh, historically has been US based. So, you know, there's definitely a lot going on, uh, sort of global trends that, that I think are certainly relevant and impactful in the us and.

[00:00:27] You know, whether it's coming from here and exporting out to the rest of the world or, you know, impacting us, uh, from countries all around the, the planet. So, uh, we'll be talking about all that, but, you know, talking about digital tools and, um, change management and just looking ahead to the future, I think 2023 will be a very interesting year.

[00:00:44] So we're, we're definitely spending a lot of time talking with a lot of, uh, different folks on kind of what their. Trend lines they're following. So, uh, with all that, we will start, as we always do, uh, have our guests introduce themselves and give a brief overview of their professional background and how they got to be where they are today.

[00:00:59] Catherine Friday: Uh, [00:01:00] well thank you so much, Dustin, for, for having me on the show, and it's lovely to be with you and your listeners. Um, I'm Catherine Friday. I'm based in Melbourne, Australia. I am a managing partner at ey. Um, and one in one of my roles, I get to lead our global education practice, which is something I love, I love doing very much.

[00:01:18] Um, and I've been, I've been with EY since, uh, 2002, so since the collapse of Anderson all that very long time ago. Been in professional services all my life and have spent the vast bulk of that time supporting the work of government and public sector agencies. And over the last decade and a half of that, very much focusing in on the work of, um, education delivery, both in higher education, but also further and, um, strongly in, uh, K to 12.

[00:01:47] as well. And it said it's really lovely to be with you 

[00:01:49] Dustin Ramsdell: today. Thanks for, uh, joining from, you know, halfway around the world and, uh, like I, that'll definitely be a refreshing perspective for, uh, our conversation here today, just to have you [00:02:00] in with your unique experience. Cause I think also just to contextualize it for folks like EY and the work it Dozen education, I think if you want to just give a brief explanation of that.

[00:02:08] Cause I know. You know, for me, it's not something that I like, I'm just kind of generally aware of, of like, yeah, there's players and you know, they do consulting or this or that, or whatever. So yeah, if you wanna kind of contextualize, you know, EY in general, the work they do in education and maybe how your role particularly fits in.

[00:02:22] Catherine Friday: So EY, as listeners probably know, is a huge global professional services firm. So we do management consulting. We have a legal division. We obviously have a genesis in auditing and accounting, um, provision and financial support services. We do mergers and transactions, we do strategy advice. We have data analytics, we have cyber teams.

[00:02:44] We do space tech, and it's fair to say, Everything that we do on any given day of the week, we will be doing for an education provider somewhere around the world. And when I say education provider, I mean the whole cradle to grave gamut of it. [00:03:00] So starting with early learning, we've got people who focus in on the early learning, um, sector.

[00:03:04] Then we do K to 12, both public and private. Um, then we do. Further education or vocational as it's, as it's, uh, termed in my part of the world, um, and higher education as well. In fact, higher education is probably about half of everything that we do, both public and private. And then we are also doing, um, a huge amount of work, um, in supporting workforce, um, transition and transformation.

[00:03:29] So really ongoing learning and development and change of, um, workforce. Um, around the world and helping, uh, people rapidly, uh, re-skill for what it is their jobs are demanding of them and asking of them, um, and supporting the change management journey around that as well. So we are likely to pop up in all manner of places, in all manner of countries doing all manner of things.

[00:03:53] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah, that's great. And I guess like part of me is a little bit surprised that like higher ed is, you know, so much of your work. So I think [00:04:00] there are a lot of spaces where it's not just because like, you know, so like, you know, in America, I guess like, you know, K through 12 just takes up a lot more kind of physical space, the number of students they serve and all that kind of stuff, and the duration of the time that they're being served and everything.

[00:04:14] You know, like you were saying, like workforce development. You know, typically is sort of leveraging higher ed. You know, so it's like, you know, if you go through getting a four year degree, that can be a way to, you know, uplift your career and your life and those sort of things With where you're working.

[00:04:28] You may be re-skilling through a provider. Mm-hmm. , you know, that's supported in some way, you know, by a higher ed institution. So, I guess as I, as I sort of talk, you know, talk it out and sort of think out loud, I'm like, yeah, I guess, yeah. You know, half and half does feel kind of right. Um, 

[00:04:43] Catherine Friday: absolutely.

[00:04:44] Absolutely. And, and, uh, and Dustin as, as you would know, as well as anyone, um, a four year degree is sort of no longer at the, sort of the, the beginning in the end of, you know, of, of. Of most people's foray into post-secondary education. Um, it's part of it, but it's increasingly, [00:05:00] it's just the first part of what will become lots of points of, um, interaction and, and ongoing, um, learning experiences that people have.

[00:05:09] Well even, uh, increasingly beyond their formal work life as well. And so that is something that we are both supporting our clients in. It's also something that we're doing quite a bit of, um, within the firm as well. And I guess, You know, that just that fact raises sort of the, the interesting point that people are no longer looking purely to, you know, sort of the pure higher ed providers for their, you know, sort of lifelong learning experiences.

[00:05:33] But within the firm we offer, um, hundreds of badges or micro-credentials. , um, to, to our people. Um, and we now also offer three MBAs. Um, and we're not obviously the only professional services firm or employer to be doing that as well. So I guess we are sort of living proof of that growing diversity, um, in the many, many ways in which people can continue, um, their education.

[00:05:59] And it's no [00:06:00] longer just sort of the, the, the, um, pure remit of the academy, so to 

[00:06:05] Dustin Ramsdell: speak. Mm. . Yeah, there's definitely, yeah. I mean, there's so much happen. , like you said, with like the four year degree being this sort of, you know, end all, be all thing. Like you said where, you know, you've seen a lot of, uh, companies that even now sort of like state governments and things saying like, you know, we're not just sort of like by a default setting kind of thing, like requiring a four year degree just because, I don't know, it's just.

[00:06:26] you know, the way we've always done it or, you know, the best measure we have of like, that's a qualified person who's gonna be reliable. And it's like, yeah, baby. Like, you know, there, there could be other ways, whether it's, you know, certificates or Yeah, like badges or he went through a bootcamp program or all these different things.

[00:06:40] So, um, and yeah, even just, I think, yeah, we've seen that tread line too of like, uh, different organizations on sort of a spectrum, I guess, of their sort of, uh, Involvement with like helping to create like curriculum. So it's like, hey, you know, AWS or Google or whatever, like we're sort of, you know, helping to, [00:07:00] uh, create the courses to, you know, equip people the skills that we want, you know, so it's obviously like, not altruistic entirely, but like it does help people to, uh, you know, gain skills that will give them gainfully employing, uh, jobs and everything.

[00:07:15] And that's what I think about a lot is like, if you. Pursue things like that. You know, you get a couple badges or something in these really marketable skills. You could start working at a place that could then fund you because it's like, yeah, I've always wanted to get my bachelor's degree. I work my MBA, or whatever else.

[00:07:29] It's like, get to a place that can help support you, whether it is explicitly like, yeah, we're paying your tuition entirely, or even just subsidizing it or. Giving you a lifestyle that is conducive to even being able to study and be successful in your studies and those sort of things. So there's definitely, yeah, just a lot there of, you know, almost everybody kind of chipping in and doing their part to try to facilitate just a diversity of options, you know, uh uh, for people to further their learning.

[00:07:58] like, you know, throughout their 

[00:07:59] Catherine Friday: life. [00:08:00] I think that's exactly right. And sort of then we talk a lot about sort of the blurring of industry boundaries. So the, um, creation of, uh, learning content is no longer sort of purely the domain of the academy. And if you like, the, the customers of, um, of graduates are no longer just employers.

[00:08:19] Uh, but exactly to your point, you know, Google, aws, uh, you know, um, you know, many companies here in Australia are all, uh, we're all. Our own, um, curriculum, some of that in concert with, um, with the academy, some of it on our own. And then actually asking for the academy to come in and formally credit some of the content that we've developed.

[00:08:39] Um, and we're also developing content like some of our own own modules, um, in like, in our case, some of our modules of graduate learning. We are then giving to particular higher education provider. And they are incorporating into their own undergraduate degree. So there's a lot of sharing of content, um, all around the [00:09:00] place, which I guess just goes to speak about how, um, how quickly the whole teaching and learning ecosystem, particularly in higher ed, not exclusively, but particularly, particularly in higher ed, um, is just adapting and changing.

[00:09:15] And how much of that is also then enabled by, As well where you don't have to take, you know, a lecturer, you know, a specific lecturer and fly 'em around the world, you know, to, to see a whole bunch of students. Um, or you don't just have to have within, you know, within each university. Not every single, you know, lecturer of accounting 1 0 1 needs to create all of their course content from scratch.

[00:09:37] Um, it's really easy to. Amazing world class, high quality content at increasingly reduced cost with students wherever on the planet they might happen to be. 

[00:09:50] Dustin Ramsdell: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I mean, and that's like just something I wanted to kind of like bold and underline and all that. I think, you know, sort of what you're getting at is like, you know, and this is sort of.

[00:09:59] You know, open-ended [00:10:00] in the sense of like, not really being specific about one thing, but, uh, my mind is just, you know, thinking of many sort of implications or manifestations of this. But, uh, you know, how institutions can be more inclusive through digital tools. So again, that, that's a very sort of broad, vague question, so take it as you will.

[00:10:17] But I'm thinking, you know, there are just a lot of things around, you know, yeah. The pace, the modality, and like you said, just sort of, uh, you know, the. , like how the content is delivered. You know, if it is just like, this is a way that we found really effective to teach English 1 0 1 or something. It's like, well, that's gonna be more supportive for more people to like, to learn it because it's like being taught well, you know, and, and, uh, given a lot of, Perhaps like support structures or things like that.

[00:10:41] So just, yeah, just any of your kind of thoughts around, you know, how digital tools are helping institutions be more inclusive of more 

[00:10:48] Catherine Friday: learners. It's an awesome question, Dustin, and I reckon there's probably a PhD in it. Um, for someone, cuz I would probably start by saying that, um, the, the, the use of digital itself, [00:11:00] uh, So much diversity and variety in it.

[00:11:04] They're like almost starting from, um, students being able to access digital content, um, on their own, on their, uh, in their own time at sort of self-paced learning, which might be appropriate for, um, mature age students or, you know, students who have previously had formal sort of teaching and learning experiences and don't want, or don't require.

[00:11:24] Or potentially can't actually afford, um, you know, teaching and learning experiences that are more, more hands-on, more than, than that, that involve more FaceTime all the way through to, um, if you like, something that we might consider to be a more traditional, um, classroom experience, but that is enhanced with digital content that lecturers or teachers.

[00:11:49] Guide students too, and is used to both supplement and compliment, um, in, in classroom teaching time. And in that model we're seeing, um, [00:12:00] increasingly in, um, uh, some of our premium higher education providers, uh, the sort of the, the, the genesis of what's being sort of called the flipped c. Whereas instead of having, you know, a teacher or a lecturer at the, at the front of the room, um, disseminating knowledge widely and expecting everyone to, you know, madly scribble it down or type it down, um, there's actually instead a sort of an increasing shift to, um, expecting students to read.

[00:12:27] Learn, um, absorb knowledge, um, and content that they're guided to, a lot of which can be digitally enhanced before they even get into the classroom, so that by the time they get into the classroom, the time there is spent in a much more Socratic style of teaching and learning discourse, dialogue, challenge, debate.

[00:12:45] And so if you like, taking the best of modern technology with the, the availability and, and support of digital content and taking the best of, um, much older but proven styles of teaching and learning where there is [00:13:00] rich student engagement with teachers and researchers, um, and, and, and putting those together said almost in a, in a, in a premium.

[00:13:08] Experience for students, um, and having, you know, the student experience digitally really supported through, uh, recommendations of, uh, bespoke, um, support around what, you know, what it is they're wanting to either extend themselves into. Or are struggling with a little bit, um, in terms of the content that they're acquiring, um, as well, obviously with digital there's also much richer and better support available, um, for students who come with a diversity of different, um, experiences and needs.

[00:13:42] So whether it is things like, um, voice to. Or the other way around, whether it is translating into multiple languages in real time, um, you know, whether it is in, again, in real time, providing, um, access to, uh, greater support resources and [00:14:00] deeper, um, content resources to, to help students who might be struggling with the content, um, in the speeding, which it's being delivered, all of which is.

[00:14:09] amazing and provides for a much richer, more diverse, um, range of, uh, experiences for students in the higher ed environment and increasingly in K to 12, as well as some of these technologies are picked up in, in school as well. Of course, that's just what it means, um, from the perspective of teaching and learning.

[00:14:27] There is also the rich use of digital for those who are lecturing or. Themselves. And, um, the great way that student analytics allows for teachers to, um, have a much greater understanding of the learning journeys, the learning trajectories of each student within the cohort that they're teaching as well.

[00:14:51] And so being able to step in and offer much more bespoke. Um, around some of those, uh, either again, you know, sort of e either end of the [00:15:00] bell curve of, of what's going on, um, in their classroom or, or what's going on in their lecture theater, and to really be able to nail that down. Um, and at its best, uh, digital, particularly tools like AI are just awesome at taking care of very medial man mundane, um, administrative, uh, requirements and.

[00:15:21] That teachers and lecturers have to have to deal with, um, as part of their, you know, just as, as part of their on-campus responsibilities as well. So whether it's dealing with FAQs or, you know, having standardized responses to emails, those sorts of things. So, uh, I, I guess that's, that's, that's kind of like a, a, a thesis in a nutshell.

[00:15:39] Dust , the application of digital in the education context are, are rich and broad and varied. Um, and I know that you. Sometimes people can get a little ay about what all the changes mean and is moving away from what we've always done and the way we've always done it, necessarily in the best [00:16:00] interest of students.

[00:16:01] But I've gotta say, based on my experience as and observations overwhelmingly, the answer is yes.

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[00:17:05] Again, head on over to enroll five.org/dda SEO to learn more now on to the show. Yeah. Well a couple of thoughts there, just sort of reflecting what you're saying is that like, I think they're, the sort of way that you thread this needle is like balancing really intentionally. That idea, like you said, where like there might be like hesitancy around this technology or for a variety of reasons, but like, I think the formula that you want is like augmenting the stuff that like is really important.

[00:17:38] Like you said, the teaching where it's like, okay, let's have the teacher do what they do best and sort of, you know, supplement them and sort of, uh, yeah, like focus on discussions and really, you know, affirming people's knowledge and a answering like kind of really. Uh, deeper questions and then like, it could, technology and different digital tools could then like, replace the mundane things that waste a lot of time that you could sort of just build up a [00:18:00] knowledge base for a chatbot to, you know, answer a question around, like, how do I do this thing on the learning management system or something.

[00:18:06] It's just like, all right, chatbot's there. I can give you that answer really quick and give you like, you know, a help guide on the, you know, uh, with more details or something, but, and Yeah, like, you know, students with that like flipped model, it's like things like that where it's like, that's not like a super new idea.

[00:18:24] We're just getting better at doing it. And then like a lot of these things are just like proliferating more, like you said, like even getting into K through 12 and just like, you know, a lot of the naysayers I'm sure are just finally sort of like, okay, I think, you know, I, I've been sort of, you know, persuaded here or whatever and we're, you know, you're seeing just so many.

[00:18:42] Successful use cases of, uh, things like that, you know, just the teaching philosophies or different digital tools, so, Yeah. So I think it's a really interesting moment and I think certainly from your perspective where you might be sort of relaying a lot of this, you know, data and research or, you know, best practices and things like what is your advice for [00:19:00] overseeing, like change management with all this kind of stuff.

[00:19:03] Mm-hmm. . Cause I think that's just gonna continue to be sort of a rippling out of whether it is these things or just more AI or, you know, uh, digital education options or something. Mm-hmm. , just like, there's still I think a lot of ground. Be, uh, sort of gained or kind of residue to be kind of chipped away and different things like that.

[00:19:18] So just general perspectives you have on sort of navigating, uh, change management. , 

[00:19:22] Catherine Friday: and it's such a, such a good question, Justin. And, um, change. Change in any context, in any sector is often hard. You know, people psychologically don't, don't love change. And if what we are doing is, is you know, what we've always done and it seems to be working more or less most of the time, um, getting people to change is hard in higher education.

[00:19:43] it is particularly hard, you know, higher education providers around the world have a long history, you know, often of centuries of doing pretty much the same thing in pretty much the same way and have done it proudly and with great effect. And so really the, [00:20:00] the, for us and, and our observation is there, there are a couple of things.

[00:20:03] Gotta get right in order for the change to be successful. The first is absolutely to keep humans at the center of the discussion around change. Why are we changing and for whom? And how will it make human experience better? Whether we're talking about student experience or whether we're talking about um, uh, a teacher or lecturer experience, how are we actually proposing to make the experie.

[00:20:31] Better. And, and, and what will the lift experience of that be on the other side of the change? So it can't be a discussion about technology. Technology is, um, technology is just an enabler for improving human, human condition and human experience. And so we have to keep that front and center of our, of our urban narrative.

[00:20:51] Um, and then we also need to actually link it to the. Purpose, um, of the, you know, of the provider as well. You know, higher [00:21:00] education providers exist to create and to share knowledge. So being really clear on how adopting and disseminating digital is actually going to make the creation and dissemination and sharing of knowledge.

[00:21:14] Better and richer, um, how it will be able to create, um, greater ripples across, um, greater populations of people, how it will, you know, potentially support things like the un um, s d g four, which is all around access to, you know, you know, equitable access to high quality education for all, you know, know for, for, for all lifelong learners around the world.

[00:21:37] Is this something that we take seriously? Is this something that we are committed to? So what is, what is the higher purpose? Around which we are changing. And we find, again, probably not surprisingly, particularly in, um, higher education providers, when the narrative around change, when the impetus for change is founded in people and is founded in purpose, it becomes easier.[00:22:00] 

[00:22:00] The other thing that then needs to follow up a lot from that is supporting the. To enable the change as well. You know, it's not just a matter of flicking out a couple of emails or whacking something on a bulletin board or having a coffee and giving everyone a new mug that says we love change, or whatever it is.

[00:22:16] You know, it's got to really be, um, supported work to take leaders to places they haven't been before themselves either. And we all know as leaders, it's incredibly challenging to try and lead. Authenticity and integrity, or you're being asked to go somewhere that you've never been and you're not necessarily sure you will like when you get there.

[00:22:37] So spending a lot of time with the leadership teams on, uh, on helping them to understand and, and buy into and genuinely champion where we're going and why we're going there is critically important as well. So in a lot of work with our leadership teams, that note, that's absolutely where we focus on the people and on the purpose and on supporting the leadership.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:01] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd love to hear that cuz I think. It's, it's like the simple thing of like, you know, knowing your why, you know, that's just kind of a, a exactly. Kind of a catchy, you know, catchy phrase that's been around for a while, but like, it deserves to be sort of like reiterated and just like remind people of it, cuz it's like, okay, like why are we doing this?

[00:23:18] Cuz it could be like, you're going down a path and it's like, hold on. Like, why are we doing it? Like, what? Like why are, and just like reminding me like, okay, yeah, that, that like, let's keep going, let's keep going. Or being like, okay, actually that's not like, you know, as important as maybe we thought it was like, Things have cha, you know, just depending on how long it took us to get to like halfway there, it could be like, well actually maybe let's like divert over here because we are seeing a different needs pop up or something.

[00:23:41] But yeah, and you want to like take care and be empathetic and considerate of people and their experience like, , you know, navigating through that change and having it be something that, uh, will be beneficial to them. And just that consideration of like, students, faculty, and staff, like, you wanna try to keep all of them as happy as possible.

[00:23:57] So to like, you know, uh, that's, that's definitely, [00:24:00] uh, worthwhile to be mentioned as well. But, mm-hmm. , uh, . Yeah, I think it, it's even that idea where like, I, I was wondering if you were gonna be like, and like you need a really, like clear plan or path and all that. It's like maybe like that's not as necessary as some of those other things.

[00:24:13] It's like if you had like, I'm thinking of like the metaphor, it's like at least like a dotted line of like, we know we wanna get over there. We think, cuz again, it's like we've never been here before. We don't know. Like we know where we wanna go, but we've never gotten there. So it's like we think generally we're gonna be going this way.

[00:24:25] But like that's part of it is I think, not thinking that it has to be. A very rigid thing, and if it's like, we're not hitting this, then we've failed and we gotta bail out and quit or whatever, it's like, no, be flexible and knowledgeable. That like, yeah, you could zig-zag your way all the way up to that sort of peak, that goal that you want to get to.

[00:24:43] And like, that's okay because like it could just again, be that idea where like throughout that journey, you know, any number of variables could affect, you know, which path you're taking. That's the second ride. Not knowing that it's like an important goal. . That's 

[00:24:56] Catherine Friday: exactly right. And that's why I think, as I said, for us having the humans [00:25:00] at the center, so remembering why we are doing this, cuz if we weren't trying to improve human experience in some way, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

[00:25:08] So, you know what, um, so, you know, what, what is the human experience that we are trying to, to, to improve whether it is. The, the, the students or whether it is academics or both, you know, so, so what is that? Who are we wanting to reach with, with, with what it is we're doing? And again, why, and I think you're exactly right.

[00:25:27] If we've got those ideas in our, in our heads, then a, it makes it easier to, uh, to deal with the, the stressful stuff when it comes up, because there will be stressful stuff, because there always is when you start to do any, anything new. But it does also mean that you've got that. Flexibility and adaptability.

[00:25:46] And I think the resilience in what you're doing, cuz you know where you're going, but if you strike a big rock or a swamp, then you just go around it. You're not just gonna sit there and stare at it and lose all hope. I mean, it just, you know, you, you, you ha you [00:26:00] haven't lost the sense of, um, you know, why you're actually on this journey.

[00:26:03] Um, in the first place. So I said that's, that, that's really what we focus on. And you're right, to a degree you do need a plan, but it's always gotta be a plan with a degree of Flex Belt built in and to give people comfort that there is the flex and the resilience built into it as well. So, you know, we're not just going to, you know, railroad you through this process and expect you to love every single minute of.

[00:26:26] we know that's not how humans roll. Um, and you know, again, if we're not, if we're not keeping our students at the center of our thinking, if we're not engaging with them, if we're not engaging with leaders around the university, if we're not engaging with faculty and, and the corporate teams, then the whole thing's just gonna crash and burn really early on.

[00:26:44] So it, it, it's, it's gotta be, it's gotta be humans at the center and, and then we figure everything else out from there. 

[00:26:50] Dustin Ramsdell: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, just. That point of like, humans at the center, there's a lot of implications to that. And I think it a discussion for another day of just like, [00:27:00] again, like a change management thing could be very in depth.

[00:27:02] But yeah, just being empathetic of like, yeah, like people's feedback and people's input and all those sort of things. So, um, yeah, very, very glad to hear that. Uh, kind of being integral to, uh, you know, the way that y'all do things. But, uh, for the sake of time, I did wanna make sure, cause I feel like just obviously in your position, I'm sure that you're just absorbing so much, you know.

[00:27:22] kind of knowledge and, uh, research and different things. So, um, if there's any resources that you feel like would be super important just around kind of just, you know, whether there is like global higher education, kind of, you know, digital education or, you know, a variety of different tools and, uh, technologies or whatever, um, has been catching your eye lately, but.

[00:27:40] Yeah, resources that we could, uh, put in the show notes, 

[00:27:42] Catherine Friday: podcasts, like your own. I'm, I'm a, I'm a big listener to podcasts. Um, a couple from Australia that may not necessarily be well known to your, to your listeners. One that I love, um, is a podcast called, um, Uh, the, the minefield, uh, and it's hosted by [00:28:00] Wally Ali and Scott Stevens.

[00:28:02] Um, and so that's, that's produced by the, um, Australian, Australian Broadcasting Corporation. And I love it because it takes a look at a lot of the stuff that's going on, and it could be in tech or in geopolitics, and really starts to unpack a lot of the, um, ethical issues that, that are sitting underneath.

[00:28:21] That one that they did recently that I thought. Really interesting and might be of interest to your listeners, um, was a podcast that it was titled, what is Genitive AI Doing To our Capacity to Write and Think. Um, which of course is in a sort of super, super topical at the moment, and one that they did sort of the week before that was titled, what Does it Mean to Be Literate and Is that Under Threat?

[00:28:46] Um, so they just sort of pick up some, some of these ideas and. talk about them often with guests, sometimes just between the two of them. But yeah, they, they, they, they cover, cover a lot of ground, um, doing, doing that sort of [00:29:00] thing. Um, so that's definitely one that I would recommend. Um, a book that I am about two thirds of the way through reading and was just released last week and might be of interest to some of your listeners as well, is called the New Learning Economy, thinking Beyond Higher Educat.

[00:29:18] Um, and that's by Martin Bets. And Michael Roseman said that's a, and that, that's a new release. And it really looks at, uh, like again, sort of the, the historical factors that gave rise to the creation of higher ed systems. Um, and what is their relevance and purpose now and, and, um, and, and what should we be expecting from higher ed in the future, and what are sort of the various, uh, uh, meta, um, social and economic forces at.

[00:29:46] Um, a around that as well. Um, and just for fun, something that I, something that I listen to and again, might be of interest to some of your listeners, is a fabulous podcast that's well loved here in Australia. That's called Chat [00:30:00] 10 Looks three. and that's, um, uh, between, uh, Anabel Krab and Lee Sales. They are both storied Australian journalists, um, and cover many, many topics including books, um, in, in what they talk about.

[00:30:15] Um, and focus not infrequently on matters of, um, education, but also broad social policy, um, as well. So those, those would probably be three things that I'd be very glad to. . 

[00:30:28] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah. Just thinking we're this, where it's like, yeah, sometimes we are being influenced by global events or just trends. Mm-hmm. and then like vice versa.

[00:30:34] So just knowing kind of like, oh, what's going on? You know, in other parts of the world. Because like, I think especially now in in ed tech and higher ed, like you're just seeing, um, some ascendant global players and things. So you know, again, there's certain best practices and things that are going on, and if it's just kind of the competitiveness and you're seeing different companies entering.

[00:30:54] You know, new spaces and bringing something different and all that, it's just good to be mindful of just sort of like, you know, [00:31:00] things that could be impactful either like very soon or, you know, far into the future where it's like, oh yeah, that's right. I remember hearing about that, like, you know, uh, months or years ago or something.

[00:31:08] So, um, we 

[00:31:09] Catherine Friday: can, that's exactly right. And sometimes in completely different contexts, which is great. And then you see kind of how it, how it all knits together. . 

[00:31:16] Dustin Ramsdell: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, we always like to end just as sort of a final thought or call to action just for you to kind of have the opportunity to wrap everything up.

[00:31:25] Cause I think this is a great conversation. Just generally, like, like you said with like the book and everything, like a new learning economy and all that, where like, In my mind, I think all of this can be a part of a beautiful ecosystem together with a lot more on-ramps for people to, you know, get stackable credentials and all this kind of stuff, versus just like everybody kind of cramming into, you know, trying to get a four year degree.

[00:31:42] So, you know, with all of that we've talked about so far, um, obviously a lot more to discuss, but we're, we're just wrapping it up here. Just final thoughts, calls to action, or, you know, just ways maybe for folks to keep the conversation. Yeah. 

[00:31:56] Catherine Friday: Thank you so much, Dustin. And I think for me, sort of the, the, the [00:32:00] key sort of motivating or inspiring thought around all of this right now is that for the first time ever, we actually have within our grasp the ability to deliver on one of the un sustainable development goals.

[00:32:14] And that is obviously goal, goal number four, which is around having global access to high quality education for. For all of the world students. And so many of the UN SDGs are bold and lofty ambitions, but we're still some ways of being able to, to achieve them. But the education one is within our grasp.

[00:32:34] Um, and that is because of the, the enormous amount of, um, Incredibly high quality content that's available, um, combined with digital access, combined with, um, so much, um, you know, transition and fluidity between population centers, um, around the world as well. So I guess for, for me, the, the, the call out to, to all of our listeners is to really think [00:33:00] about how, how we can, how we can tick that one.

[00:33:03] How, how, how can we with our collective resources and talents and access to, um, to digital and other sources of, um, delivering and disseminating, um, amazing teaching and learning content. Make sure that anyone anywhere in the world who has a passion to learn has that passion. 

[00:33:25] Dustin Ramsdell: Beautiful sentiment to end on.

[00:33:27] I love the optimism. Yeah. For these, these lofty goals. And they're important ones. They're necessary ones. And yeah, like I said, we kind of know that we have kind of the tools to, uh, you know, achieve, uh, that particular goal now. And, um, Yeah. So I just appreciate you, uh, sharing all your expertise and, uh, some great resources and for, uh, taking some time, uh, early in your neck of the woods, uh, uh, to have this conversation.

[00:33:50] Just thank you so much for your time. 

[00:33:52] Catherine Friday: Pleasure. Thank you so much, Dustin. Appreciate the opportunity.[00:34:00] 

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