Why Higher Ed Marketers Should Care More About Podcasts

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Enrollify_EnrollifyPodcast_Audio_Ep#156_PatGomez_Version1

[00:00:00] Zach Busekrus: Hey guys, Zach here. I want to invite you to join me at Element four 50 one's Engage Summit on June 27th and 28th in Raleigh, North Carolina. When it comes to the student experience, we know that you want to be a trusted guide from recruiting all the way to graduation. Well, the Engage Summit brings the best minds in higher ed together to give you the strategy and tools that you need to create a cohesive student experience from start to finish, explore the latest technologies, increase your skillset, and gain insight into today's students to deliver the most powerful and personalized digital engagement experience every step of the way.

[00:00:41] This is not your standard EdTech user conference. This is a dynamic inspirational. An empowering event for all higher ed marketers and admissions professionals. I'll be presenting at this year's event, along with some of your favorite higher ed LinkedIn and Twitter follows. You can learn more about this event and register for it at Engage [00:01:00] dot element four 50 one.com.

[00:01:02] Oh, and you can get $50 off your registration when you use the discount code in five 50. That's in Enroll five 50 at checkout. So go ahead, check it out. RSVP at. Engage dot Element four 50 one.com. Looking forward to seeing you all there.

[00:01:43] Pat Gomez, we are live. Dude. Welcome to the show. How you doing? I am 

[00:01:47] Pat Gomez: doing well. Thank you very much for having me, 

[00:01:49] Zach Busekrus: Zach. Like, I feel like we, uh, we started pretty formal, but um, we're, we're not really formal because we spend a lot of time together. We spend, you know, hours [00:02:00] slacking, zooming all the, all the ings together since we work on the Enroll five podcast network together.

[00:02:06] Pat Gomez: Yeah, precisely. Quite the opposite. I think formal is the, uh, yeah, not the way that I would describe our relationship, but honored, honored to be here and trying to, uh, trying to be a proper podcast guest and, and be as formal as I can. 

[00:02:18] Zach Busekrus: Is this your first podcast as a guest or, yeah. 

[00:02:20] Pat Gomez: So wildly enough. Yeah.

[00:02:21] This is my first time being a guest on a show, and after helping produce about 190 episodes across the Unified Podcast Network, this is the first time I've shown up on the podcast Network myself. 

[00:02:32] Zach Busekrus: Wow. I think you probably know more about the podcast network than anyone else, and so glad that we finally get to have you in the hot seat, man.

[00:02:41] I'm, uh, I'm excited for this. 

[00:02:43] Pat Gomez: It's an honor. Let's get to it, man. What are we talking about 

[00:02:45] Zach Busekrus: today? Cool, dude. Well, I wanted to have you on selfishly just to kind of pick your brain, understand a little bit more about your observations. Having produced nearly 200 podcasts as a part of our, our network, uh, and so I thought it'd be fun to just kind of craft a, a [00:03:00] larger conversation on.

[00:03:01] Why higher ed marketers should care more about podcasts? So there are a few angles I want to hit here. One is thinking about podcasting as like a marketing and recruitment channel. It's something that some folks have experimented with a little bit, but it's still not something that's been wildly adopted as a, as a formal strategy for recruitment and marketing.

[00:03:18] And I think there's some missed opportunities there. Then I was just thinking it'd be fun to chat a little bit about podcast as a networking channel, just selfishly as a, as a higher ed marketer, if you wanna expand your brand, your personal brand, your, your network, why podcasting can be a great way of, of doing that.

[00:03:34] Totally. And then I thought it'd just be fun to hit on some kind of like, you know, this is really where I'd love what your thoughts are. What, what makes a great podcast? Like what are, what are sort of the, the elements, the, the architecture of a, of a really good show, uh, I think that folks could learn from that for.

[00:03:50] You know, when they're on a show, if they ever are hosting a show, and or if their, if their school is, is producing a show. And then finally, just like how to be a g a great guest on a podcast. So [00:04:00] when you are invited, like what are the things that you should. Come to the table with, come to the conversation with.

[00:04:05] So that's sort of my, my agenda, if you will, for, for our time together. Uh, how does that sound? Fantastic man. Let's dive in. Cool, dude. All right, so let's just kick off with number one here, the podcasting as, as a marketing and recruitment channel. So I've seen a few schools do this, but. The beautiful thing about podcasts is you've got the big business shows, you've got the big, like news shows, but most podcasts are relatively niche in nature.

[00:04:30] Right? Like the people that are following these shows. I think some of the best podcasts that I follow are, are pretty, are pretty niche. Mm-hmm. And, and as such, right. I. Folks build significant affinity and loyalty to, to shows. Right. So I know that Pat, pat, you've got a show that's pretty niche that you follow, right?

[00:04:48] Yeah. 

[00:04:48] Pat Gomez: So in my, my, one of my dirty little secrets is I'm kind of like a astrophysics nerd, um, which is something that doesn't pertain to any other area of my life other than I'm just super interested in it. Um, so I follow Neil deGrasse [00:05:00] Tyson's podcast with, with a great affinity. Uh, star talk is the name of that show.

[00:05:03] And, um, it's all, all topics are very specific to. The world of science and astrophysics, and although that's not pertaining to my professional career whatsoever, yeah, I find it fascinating. And yeah, the relationship that you can build with a host, the relationship that you can build with that host brand is really significant for the listener.

[00:05:20] And I think that higher ed is in general, maybe. Five to 10 years behind the rest of the world when it comes to the rest of rather other industries when it comes to marketing and utilizing the channels that are out there. And I think that podcasting is one of those areas that is underutilized. Yeah, we're starting to see it more and more now.

[00:05:40] However, I think that it allows you to really, yeah, get your brand out there and to really develop a relationship with the listener in a way that other forms of content do not. 

[00:05:50] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the, one of the reasons why it is such an interesting channel to play with is it allows for, it allows for like more [00:06:00] nuanced discussion and conversation.

[00:06:02] So like if you've got a faculty member, right, that represents a. You know, biomedical engineering program or something like that, right? That, that, you know, is, and if this individual is, is a thought leader in, in that respective field, which hopefully they are, if they're a faculty member at your school, uh, you know, getting them on shows, right.

[00:06:20] Or getting them in, in front of hosts that, that cover those topics, right. Is a really, really, really great way to elevate obviously their individual brand, but also the brand of, of your respective college or university, and helps prospective students who might be interested in a program, maybe it's a master lawful program, better understand kind of like the character of the faculty that work at that particular school in the context of that program.

[00:06:43] Because they totally, at the end of the day, especially when it comes to master's programs, which a lot of people that follow this show care a lot about marketing grad programs. And I, you know, right now grad is kind of like, Having this moment as the undergraduate enrollment, uh, cliff that everyone likes to talk about is, you know, continues to loom and is is coming [00:07:00] quickly.

[00:07:00] People are turning their focus more towards grad to help make up some of that revenue, quite frankly, that they're losing at the undergraduate level. And so all that is to say is that if you can leverage your faculty, which. Grad marketers love to, to talk about sort of their faculty as their key selling points, as, uh, why an individual should enroll in their program.

[00:07:19] If you can leverage them in this really unique way, allow them to kind of speak in long form content. Mm-hmm. It just gives prospective students a much better, uh, opportunity to understand not just what you know, what do your f your faculty actually know, but like their cadence of communication, their style of expressing knowledge.

[00:07:39] Right. Which are all factors that folks should consider before they decide to enroll in, in a master's program. So I think that the medium itself is just well, while niche, right? And while it's not gonna give you the breadth that a Google search ad campaign might give you the, the quality of engagement, even though the, the reach is small, is certainly worth exploring [00:08:00] much more than folks are exploring it now.

[00:08:02] Agreed. 

[00:08:03] Pat Gomez: Totally. I think quality is the, uh, is the key word there, and I think the quality of listener, the quality of individual that's engaging with a podcast that is that niche and that that is that specific to, to a topic. Is is high quality. Um, yeah. Couldn't agree more. 

[00:08:18] Zach Busekrus: You know, enroll, I, we, we have a lot of folks that come on our shows that are in the ed tech space.

[00:08:22] Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I, some of the feedback that I always hear from, from folks that our guests on our shows is like, Hey, after, you know, we came on your show, we got new leads. Right? People came in and they, and even though, even though the conversation was very thought leadership in nature, Right.

[00:08:36] Maybe it was a conversation about, you know, uh, generative ai or maybe it was a conversation more generally about higher ed technology and where things are going be, because listeners now have somewhat of an affinity or, or even just like a better understanding of what it is that you do, what it is that you care about as like an ed tech leader.

[00:08:53] They're more likely if they are already in market, right? For, for a new CRM or for a new technology platform, they're [00:09:00] more likely to consider your brand than they would be before. And so what's what's cool is like, That same thing can translate and should translate to how higher ed enrollment managers should think about student recruitment.

[00:09:11] Right. It's like, Hey, totally getting your faculty out to these shows. It's, it's really just a beautiful way to drive organic inquiries in our, or organic leads, if you will, to your respective programs. Mm-hmm. Because again, it, it, it's sort of like free advertising in the form of, of thought leadership, which, which again, is what content marketing is all about.

[00:09:29] Pat Gomez: It is, and it's helpful. It's helpful content too, which I think is something to consider and something that, uh, to think about as, as the landscape shifts and as you know, gen Z is now the, the target audience, the form of content that they consume and the way that they consume content isn't maybe what the boomer generation is used to.

[00:09:45] And it's what a lot of these individuals are that are doing some of the marketing, right? And, and that more inbound approach, that more offering up. Just thought leadership on a topic that is then going to attract an interested prospect. Right? Yeah. And then allow you to nurture them [00:10:00] to the next step of whether that be inquiry or enrollment or whatever it is that you want them to do.

[00:10:04] Book it and book an appointment with an admissions counselor, right? I think that that is one of the big opportunities that podcasting can have for higher ed and in the right, done the right way. Might I add? Yeah, but just that ability to produce content that is helpful and not so in your face, Hey, come to our university.

[00:10:23] Hey, we have this, Hey, we're better about this. But more so that thought leadership on a specific topic that is relevant to your program or to your school. 

[00:10:30] Zach Busekrus: And I totally, totally agree. I think that there's also an opportunity to kind of like pay to play here, right? So like some people listening here might be like, well, okay, great.

[00:10:38] Well my, you know, Dr. Phil, my, my biomedical engineering faculty, he's not gonna be able to get on this particular show or that particular show. Right? And, and maybe may, you know, maybe, maybe that's true. But I do think, and you know, if you start with niche shows, if you, if you start with, you know, shows that might have a, a maybe, maybe there's only.

[00:10:56] You know, 200 listeners per week, but they're really, really [00:11:00] engaged listeners, right? That that show it's probably easier to get on as a guest and if you can't get on sort of organically, I do think that there's a real opportunity, especially with leveraging a faculty to, to go to these podcasts, right. And offer to pay.

[00:11:13] Right. So like what does it look like to say, hey, I'd like to, I'd like to pay you to have Dr. So-and-so on your show. Now. They're, you know, highly regarded as an expert in this particular field. We're, they're not gonna be here, you know, pimping out our program, but Right. We, we want to give you a little cash money to, to incentivize you having them on the show.

[00:11:32] I think that, again, this is a totally underutilized tactic mm-hmm. That more folks should, should consider and what it costs. Right. In order to get in front of this highly engaged audience, it's not going to be significantly more. In fact, it'll probably be significantly less than what you're paying to promote your programs in in other channels and other mediums.

[00:11:50] Again, the breadth isn't there in terms of like the breadth of reach, but the depth and and the quality of reach can bat against any Google ad campaign you might be currently running. [00:12:00] I totally 

[00:12:00] Pat Gomez: agree. And you know, I don't know, I'd be curious to see the data on this, honestly. I would be curious to see who's experimenting with this and who actually is having their faculty go out and.

[00:12:09] And try to get on some shows like this and what kind of return on investment they're getting on it. Because I do think, yeah, those marketing dollars would be a lot smaller and could go a lot farther in terms of reaching that audience as well. Yeah. 

[00:12:20] Zach Busekrus: Yeah, there's, there's unfortunately there, there aren't like, great benchmarks on this.

[00:12:23] Maybe this is a, a research project that we should, that we should engage in. Could be, this could be a null 

[00:12:28] Pat Gomez: research project we do for a new one. We just 

[00:12:30] Zach Busekrus: wrapped up a couple. Yeah, yeah. We are, we are. Um, well, cool. Uh, let's talk about podcasting as a networking channel, right? Mm-hmm. And I think, I think really what, what, what I mean here and what I'd love any.

[00:12:41] Thoughts you have here at Pat is, I really believe going on shows and if you can't host your own show, right. I do think that there's, there's still more opportunity, there's tons of opportunity with podcasting still. Like if you're like, oh, there are way too many podcasts out there. Why would I host my show?

[00:12:53] Why would I host, you know, a show myself? There's this beautiful like magic number that, uh, producer Rob on our team likes to talk about [00:13:00] a lot, which is like, I believe it's number, the number 14. That like at something like a crazy, crazy 70, 80% or something. Maybe, maybe Robbie has even said 90%. Um, of shows don't get past episode 14.

[00:13:14] And so all that is to say is that like, if you believe you can, it's, it's even lower than that. I think it's seven. It's slower. It's episode seven. Is it seven? Oh, it's seven. It's 

[00:13:22] Pat Gomez: something episodes. It's 

[00:13:23] Zach Busekrus: around. I think you're right 

[00:13:26] Pat Gomez: actually it's around the 50% mark. It's like almost half of shows. Don't make it past episode seven.

[00:13:32] Zach Busekrus: Hey, I'll Zach here from Enroll. If you like this podcast, chances are you'll like other enroll shows too. Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam-packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional.

[00:13:51] Our shows feature a selection of the industry's best as your hosts learn from Mickey Danes, Jeremy Tier, Jamie Hunt, Corrin Myers, Jamie Gleason, and many, [00:14:00] many more. You can learn more about the Enroll five podcast network@podcasts.enrollfive.org. Our shows help higher ed marketers and admission professionals find their next big idea.

[00:14:10] Find yours@podcasts.nullify.org. Maybe it's also pa maybe it's, I think it is something like 80 to 90% don't make it past episode 14 or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Um, but anyways, all that is to say is if you feel like you can, if you can make it to 15 episodes, right? Hey, you're, you're, you're already, you, you're in that top 10%, right?

[00:14:28] Or, or whatever it is. Yeah. It's all. Still thing. Consistency. All it takes is consistency. And, uh, you know, some of us are, are better at being consistent than others. Um, I have not been as consistent with this particular show as I need to be, uh, sorry folks, but, um, it's, it's on the, it's on the, we're focused on the others.

[00:14:45] Pat Gomez: That's okay. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:14:47] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Are the network is growing too fast, guys. But all that is to say is if you, if you, even if you. Don't want to or can't host your own show, just finding a topic that you can speak really well on. And to Pat, pat, your earlier point of like being [00:15:00] really niche and specific with the topic, finding whatever that topic is that you believe, uh, best right, or, or most closely aligns with your brand in your professional brand, nail nail, that like, Podcast interview, like what are the questions that you know that you could answer really, really well?

[00:15:16] Sure. That do align with what you wanna do and almost like workshop it and then go and, and not to use Pimp twice in one episode, but then go and pimp yourself out to these other shows and like hosts are always looking for great guests. Right? And again, as, as somebody who. Has hosted a number of, of different podcasts, I think, I think across a number of areas I've hosted over 500 podcasts.

[00:15:39] Finding great guests is, is really hard. Sometimes you have to settle for guests that aren't that great just to keep the show rolling. And if you find when you do find a great guest, right? It is. It is. It is a night and day dif when the pitches come in and we get pitched a lot of like, Hey, we want this person to be on your show or whatever.

[00:15:57] If you, if you can craft a great [00:16:00] podcast pitch that again, very, very clearly articulates who you are, why you're, you, know, what you wanna talk about and why you're qualified to talk about that. And if you do so in a way that's even like slightly quippy and a little bit fun, you're gonna get our attention.

[00:16:14] And like you, you were somebody that I would want to come on the show. So if you, if you figured this out for yourself and you, you, again, it's gotta be a topic you care about, it's gotta align with what you're good at. Mm-hmm. Then you just go, you do the podcast circuit before you know what your network, it's gonna expand dramatically.

[00:16:30] And I've seen this happen with many of the people that we've built shows around in our, in our own network. They get job offers right at, at major institutions because of, you know, the podcast that, you know, we, we helped create for them. Uh, anyways, I'll shut up now, but what, what are your thoughts on, on this as a networking channel?

[00:16:45] No, 

[00:16:45] Pat Gomez: totally. And I think to expand upon that a little bit too, you know, you talked about just finding. Finding good guests and, and kind of pimping yourself out and finding those topics that you're really able to focus on. And I think one of the benefits too, and one of the things that we hear. At the Enroll five Podcast network I've seen a lot of success with [00:17:00] is even building upon those relationships and expanding out to multiple episodes.

[00:17:03] And so one of the things that we've seen a lot of success with, you know, Zach, is doing like four part mini-series that focus, you know, as an in-depth conversation on a topic. Ideally your podcast, you know, if you wanna really retain the listener's attention, it's probably somewhere between that 25 minute mark and that 35 minute mark once you go beyond that, yeah, it's hard.

[00:17:21] It's hard to retain for the entirety of the episode. So really, If you're dealing with a topic, let's just say like generative AI for example, that requires a much more in-depth conversation. Using that relationship and building upon it and, and creating something like a mini-series where you do a two-part epi, you know, two-part episode, or where you do a four part mini-series and then you get to really dig in to a topic and really showcase that thought leadership.

[00:17:46] It's just something that we've seen a lot of success with and it's something that I could see. Higher ed utilizing a little bit more as well. It doesn't always have to be a one-off, that that relationship can continue in a multitude of different ways. 

[00:17:59] Zach Busekrus: That's really well said. [00:18:00] And again, I think that there, if you, if you're a podcaster out there and you're listening to this episode, I actually think from a, I mean, I don't even think I, I know from, from like a, from a revenue standpoint and from sort of a, a sellability, if you will standpoint mm-hmm.

[00:18:14] Uh, being able to sell these sort of like mini-series is, is really, really, really helpful because one, it allows your partner to give a much more comprehensive overview of kind of like, What their expertise is outside of just a standard 35 to 40 minute, you know, pod interview. And then what it also does, to your point pat for the listener, is it takes them on a journey to help them really understand the topic.

[00:18:36] Right. And they, and they walk away. Like I, you know, we, we did one of these with Element 4 51 just recently and mm-hmm. You know, p i i, we, we still get emails and dms from people being like, wow, thank you so much. Like, I finally understand what like, prompt engineering is and like, oh wow. Like this was such, it was so interesting to hear kind of like the history of this and the fact that like, These, you know, natural langu, natural language models, um, uh, actually came from, [00:19:00] came from academia.

[00:19:01] I, every, every time I say it, every time I say that, I'm like, sea seashells, 

[00:19:06] Pat Gomez: seashells by the seashore sort of a 

[00:19:07] Zach Busekrus: situation. It is, it is. Oh gosh. Um, yeah. And I feel like even with like chat g p t some, at one point I heard somebody say, Chat, P g T, and for like a while that was stuck in my head and it's just so embarrassing.

[00:19:21] Um, it's terrible. But anyways, all that is, all that is to say is that like, you know, people, people really do. If you, if you can craft these cool series, it helps focus your own content as a creator. It also is again, an easier thing to kind of partner with somebody on or sell, and it's just super, super valuable for the listener.

[00:19:37] So, um, yeah, yeah, love, love, love the miniseries approach. And then ultimately I just, you know, we, we have. Data, it's not even anecdotal. It's like real data of folks who've, you know, been who've created shows. They start interviewing people, they start building their network, and then before they know it, they're getting calls and job offers that they never thought they would've had otherwise.

[00:19:59] And so that's [00:20:00] just another powerful thing about, you know, this, this medium it is. And kind of 

[00:20:03] Pat Gomez: what you're, what you're talking about is, is positioning yourself next to existing thought leaders and kind of increasing your authority in the space. Um, I think, we'll maybe not directly talking about it, but I think indirectly that's kind of what you're referring to, uh, and.

[00:20:18] Part of that? Yeah. With podcasting, when you bring on a guest that is maybe a subject matter on a topic that you are not a subject matter expert on, or maybe you know a good bit about, but you're not quite there yet, when you bring in somebody and you have that conversation with them in the, in the eyes and in the ears of the listeners, you are kind of.

[00:20:35] Putting yourself on a parallel platform as an individual that you're in, that you were interviewing, right? So you're, it's an opportunity to increase your authority in a specific space or on a specific topic in the eyes of your network. And so when you talk about growing your personal brand and growing your personal network, podcasting can be a tremendous opportunity to do that.

[00:20:54] Even if you're not an expert on the subject, you can bring in somebody that is, you can [00:21:00] expand your authority and. That can lead to a lot of opportunities, whether that be, you know, whatever, whether that be an increased, you know, number of potential buyers for your product, uh, you know, higher ed in increased application pool, or you know, Even leading to an opportunity in, in your career.

[00:21:17] Yeah. 

[00:21:18] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. It's funny, it's like, you know, we, we have, I believe it's like the largest podcast network of marketing and, uh, admission shows in higher ed. If there's a larger one out there, I'm not aware of it. Yeah. Somebody let us know. Please. Yeah. But, but what's, uh, but what's kind of crazy, right? Is like, you know, I, who have hosted the Enroll five podcast for the last, you know, two and a half, uh, three years now.

[00:21:41] I've never worked in higher ed, right? Mm-hmm. And I've, I've never actually been a higher ed marketer at an institution. Right. And yet, like Enroll High has been able to earn a lot of credibility simply because of all the great people that we've talked to. Right? Like Totally. That's kind of case in point to, to what you're saying, pat.

[00:21:57] Pat Gomez: Totally agree. Yeah. If anybody needs an example, [00:22:00] becoming an authority in the space, look no further than your host of the Enrolled podcast, Zach Booza Cruz.

[00:22:07] Zach Busekrus: Exactly, exactly. To be fair though, to 

[00:22:09] Pat Gomez: be fair though, you are an inbound marketing guru, um, and expert, so. 

[00:22:15] Zach Busekrus: That is transferable and you, we've higher Yeah, of course. And you know, we've worked, I've spent the last like almost 10 years working on higher ed marketing campaigns for clients Yes. At colleges and universities.

[00:22:24] So of course that, you know, yeah. There, I know, I know a little bit, um, at least a thing or two. But, but the point, the point being, right, like yeah. The point being though that, um, you know, I've never, never actually. You know, worked in higher ed proper, and a lot of people that tune into the show, uh, are, are, you know, practitioners and whatnot.

[00:22:40] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but the la the last thing I wanna say on networking, pat, and if you wanna say anything else, feel free to chime in. The last thing I would just say too is like, One of the crazy things that happens when you're on podcasts, if, if the, if the host, if, if the show that you're joining like is, is at least like somewhat decent, is they should like share your post on social media, right?

[00:22:58] Mm-hmm. Or in another format, months beyond the actual [00:23:00] conversation. And when that share happens, you have this opportunity, like whether it's on LinkedIn or Twitter, you have this opportunity to, to, you know, be seen by people that they might never even listen to the podcast, right? They might not even listen to the show.

[00:23:13] They might not even be subs. They might, you know, They could care less about the actual podcast that you're on. Mm-hmm. But that share, right? And when they tag you, all of a sudden all the impressions that that post gets it, it also helps you like broaden your network. Again, they're not gonna, you know, an individual might not, might not listen to your actual episode, but if they see, like if I, you know, if I was on Pat Gomez's show and people see that I'm on Pat Gomez's show and Pat Gomez is.

[00:23:37] Uh, you know, reputable, uh, higher education marketer, that that instantly changes the perception that they have of Zach, even if they aren't already subscribed to Pat's show. Totally. So that's, uh, you know, just another point I wanted to make there on the power of networking that these, that these, you know, channel and totally these mediums 

[00:23:55] Pat Gomez: offer.

[00:23:55] Yeah. I won't harp on it, but I mean, nail on the head there. That's something that we preach to all of our, all of [00:24:00] our hosts and within the network is, you know, tapping into your guest network and, and encouraging them to share the episode. Encouraging them to, to spread that amongst their followers and, and yeah, and their network and growing your own personally.

[00:24:12] By tapping into theirs. Totally agree. Yeah. 

[00:24:14] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Yeah. Love it, dude. Uh, alright, let's, let's show transition. I wanna hear your thoughts, pat on mm-hmm. Um, how to create a great podcast. So again, you've helped produce, uh, nearly 200 episodes as part of our network now, which is insane. You've, you know, listened to tons of, you know, most of these episodes.

[00:24:30] At least, at least, you know, half of these, you've, you work with producer Rob pretty closely, so I like what, what are some things that you've learned right about how to. How to, how to sort of create a, a really good show. Yeah, 

[00:24:44] Pat Gomez: totally. So, yeah, having been hypers saturated in this, uh, in this field here for the last couple years, uh, there's just a couple points that I wanted to, that I wanted to touch on.

[00:24:51] One, I think being, uh, Let's just start at the beginning of the episode. Yeah. Um, a couple things I'll hit on first would be your intro and outro. [00:25:00] I think it's important to have consistency, uh, from a branding perspective and just from, from a personal perspective in your intro and outro. I really like it when hosts are, uh, are consistent with the way that they open a show, are consistent with the way that they close the show.

[00:25:14] I think it develops a, it helps you develop a relationship with the audience, and I think it helps. It helps to provide some brand consistency for you as well. So one, I think crafting a clever or witty, or at least just a consistent and clean intro and outro is important for any podcast. And I think it adds a level of professionalism as well.

[00:25:34] And I think expanding upon the, uh, the intro and the outro, the first thing that you do when you open up a podcast episode after you do the intro, the general, you know, introduction and opening of the show is introducing your guests. And I think that this is an area where I have seen. The most sway in terms of what works and what really doesn't work.

[00:25:54] And I think the biggest mistake a new host can make, and even a veteran host, we've seen plenty of veteran hosts do this, is letting [00:26:00] the guest introduce themselves. Um hmm. It just rarely goes well. I think the best thing that you can do is open up a show. And, and remember that we don't need your guest life story.

[00:26:12] We're here to talk about a specific topic, and let's make sure that our introduction of, of them is relevant to that topic. Everything else, they may have done a bunch of other things, but that may not be relative to what you're talking about, right? We don't need to know. Yeah, we don't need to know. Hey, tell us about yourself.

[00:26:26] Okay. Well, you know, hey, I was born in, I was born in Lubbock, Texas at the, you know, in 1991 and, you know, yada, yada, yada. Then I went to high school here, college here. Then I got my first job doing this in marketing, and then I moved here, and then I left higher, you know, I've seen that dude. I've seen intros go like five minutes and it is just, Oh God.

[00:26:42] Like, you lose me. You lose me, and you lose everybody. Right? So yeah, introduce 

[00:26:46] Zach Busekrus: your guests. Can I, can I say just one thing there too? Hit me. I think, I think what's, what's so hard about that is like, as a, as a host, like you want to give your guests the oppor, like it seems appropriate to be like, Pat, like, please, like, tell us about yourself.

[00:26:59] Like, and, and it [00:27:00] almost seems like a gracious, like, generous offer, but in actuality it's like the worst thing that you can do for Pat, because the reality is Pat doesn't know, like he, he doesn't necessarily know how to concisely talk about himself. So at best he might like read through his, you know, 50 to 100 word, like, you know, um, a summary of on his LinkedIn profile of like, I'm Pat Gomez.

[00:27:22] I'm a growth manager here at rfi, and this is blah, blah, blah, blah. What I do that's like, at best, at worst, to your point, he's gonna tell you his whole life story. And I think what's really hard is people generally are bad at talking about themselves in a way that's helpful to the listener. People tend to, when they, when they wanna talk about themselves, they, they're, they're constantly thinking about, okay, how do, how do I say something interesting or like, how do I, you know, stay true to who I am?

[00:27:43] Or they, people overthink. When they're asked to explain who they are, it, it's actually one of the hardest questions to answer, right? And unless you've had serious, serious practice, you're gonna suck at it. And most of us do suck at it. So it's actually not generous and not helpful to have your guest [00:28:00] interview or introduce themselves.

[00:28:01] It's actually something it, it actually hurts them, cuz most of the time they end up kind of looking stupid or either just, or just looking like or. Boring you dad. Wow. This person's talking forever. I don't care. Yeah. Like who care? I don't even know what the director of undergraduate recruitment with a specialist in marketing with a specialist in videography.

[00:28:16] Like, what the hell does that job title even mean? I don't care. Right. Get back to talking about why I should be including video in my comp flow. So yeah. Anyways, don't think. Right. That it's, it's you doing your guest a favor. Mm-hmm. You're actually not doing them a favor. Mm-hmm. Sorry. Continue. 

[00:28:31] Pat Gomez: No, I think you said it better than I could.

[00:28:33] Totally, totally my point there. Get to the point, introduce them, you know, give some clean, concise bullet points that are relevant to the topic and then get into your show. Yeah. Your listeners are here to listen to the show, not to not to hear somebody's life story, right? Yeah. So good. Nice clean intro.

[00:28:51] Get the guest introduction outta the way quickly. Give them an opportunity. Welcome to the Welcome to the show. Give 'em an opportunity to say thanks and then dive into your topic. I think that that's kind of the biggest thing that I can, that I [00:29:00] can preach on the start of the episode. And then from there, I really think where I've seen the most success and just.

[00:29:06] At a basic level is not trying to cram in too much. Um hmm. You know, this is a tip from Rob. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna claim that I, that I quoted this one, but, you know, Rob always says four to six questions is really kind of your max. If you're producing a good podcast episode, if you're writing good questions, you don't need to have a list of 10 or 15 questions for your guests.

[00:29:24] You just need four Yeah. To six good ones that you can really Yeah. Dig into and you can provide some meaningful context to. So, I think don't try to cram in too much. You know, keep it interesting, keep it clean, keep it quick, and your audience is going to be retained if you do those things. Yeah, right.

[00:29:43] Just the numbers. The numbers don't lie. You know, we've got our platforms we can go on, we can see. When the audience drops off, we can see how long they listen to each episode. And man, when you've got that kind of 30 minute-ish episode and you've got a good, just four clean questions and the conversation stays interesting and it leaves [00:30:00] the, it leaves the listener feeling like they gained something but also wanting more.

[00:30:03] Yeah, those people are gonna come back and they're gonna listen to the next episode, and so don't try to cram in too much. That would be advice Tip number 

[00:30:10] Zach Busekrus: three from me. I love that last one too, because I, it's something that I really struggle with, especially if you're talking to somebody that's really interesting.

[00:30:18] Mm-hmm. And they've done a lot. Mm-hmm. The temptation is, oh, I want to hear, I do want to talk about like, Pat's life story, and I, I do want to talk about these like 10 different things that I find interesting, but at the same time, right. It, it's, it's impossible to go deep on 10 things in the context of even an hour.

[00:30:32] Right? Totally. So limiting yourself is, is super, super crucial. And if the content's 

[00:30:37] Pat Gomez: there and if the, and if there's enough interesting things to talk about there, then that's when you bring that individual back for that part two. Or that's when you create a mini-series around that topic with that individual and maybe bring in.

[00:30:47] A third party that can also contribute to it. Right? So that's, there's the opportunity to expand. But I think, you know, you just gotta remember the medium. You gotta remember what the audience is doing. They're probably driving to work while they're listening to you or they're at home. Yeah. And they've got it on [00:31:00] YouTube in the background or something like that.

[00:31:01] You know, unless you're Joe Rogan don't do a two hour podcast. I don't know how, I don't know how he keeps things interesting for that long, but he's, he's somehow found a way to do it. But in my opinion, it did higher ed enrollment marketing. Hard to keep things interesting 

[00:31:13] Zach Busekrus: for two hours, so, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:16] Now it is. And one last thing I'd say on this point too is, um, ask about, like, frame the conversation if you're the host. Right. Frame the conversation around what you find interesting. Mm-hmm. Like, I think sometimes there's this temptation to want to talk about what, you know, Pat's biggest achievements or whatever.

[00:31:37] But if you, if you don't really care about, you know, Pat when he was an enrollment manager at University X, but you really wanna understand how he got an ad for his university in Times Square on New Year's Eve and like, that's like the more interesting thing that you wanna talk about. Even it's, even if it's not the thing he's like most mm-hmm.

[00:31:56] Well known for. Ask about that. Cuz if, if you're, if [00:32:00] you are genuinely interested in an aspect of your, of your interviewee. The conversation's just way, way more interesting for everybody. You enjoy yourself more, your listener enjoys themselves more, and of course, your, your guest enjoys themselves more. If you're 

[00:32:13] Pat Gomez: interested, your listeners will be interested if you're not, nor will they.

[00:32:17] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Uh, well this is, this sort of brings us to the, the last kind of core topic I wanted to. Chat about today, pat, which was just around how to be a great guest on a podcast, and I think we've, we've danced around this a little bit already, but mm-hmm. Uh, a any kind of quick thoughts on, as you've listened to, again, nearly 200, uh, enroll five podcast episodes and helped work on them.

[00:32:40] What, what have been the, who have been like the guests? You don't necessarily need name names, but what stands out about the guests? About the guests that have been really, really good? As opposed to some that, that, uh, that might have been, uh, uh, less, less than good. Yeah. You 

[00:32:54] Pat Gomez: know, there's, there's a handful of things that come to mind, but really think of it in the way that you would think of public speaking and [00:33:00] generally the people that are good at public speaking, the people that know how the, the people that know when to stop talking.

[00:33:06] Tend to be really good guests. The people that don't over elaborate and the folks that just know when to not say too much, I think are really good guests. Mm-hmm. Cadence is another thing. The pacing, the delivery of your speech can go a long way. It's an audio first, you know, platform, obviously podcasting and so, you know, I see a lot of people that, I dunno if it's flustered or whatnot, but folks that talk too fast, folks that just tend to, to.

[00:33:32] To let information roll out almost quicker than you can consume it and really receive it and process it before moving on to the next thing. Yet knowing how to interact with your host I think would be another one for me, knowing how to just have a conversation in a banter. The folks that get in there and that sound really stiff and that that sounds super rehearsed to me, are always a a little bit off-putting.

[00:33:53] I think those individuals that are just good conversationalists and know how to keep things casual. But [00:34:00] professional and on topic and on brand always tend to be really good, really good guests. Um, So I, I feel like though, that you would probably be better at answering this question than I would Zach, you've again hosted, I don't know how many podcasts, I think we've said something around 500.

[00:34:14] You have interviewed a ton of people, like gimme the good, the bad, and the ugly. What have been, start with the bad, actually, you can, you obviously don't name names, but what have been some situations where you've just had a bad guess that you don't wanna invite back? 

[00:34:30] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a great question.

[00:34:33] The first thing that actually comes to mind is, I, um, Uh, I used to, so for a while I would send people like questions and say, Hey, pat, I'm gonna hop on a call, like, let's hop on a podcast next week. Here are some questions I'd like to ask you. And I, I honestly have a love-hate relationship with giving questions ahead of time.

[00:34:52] And the reason for that is because some of the worst guests I've ever had on have answered my questions [00:35:00] perfectly. Meaning they took the questions I gave 'em. They literally, it's almost like they, you know, were writing an essay of sponsor, put 'em into Chet. They perfectly answered. Put 'em into, yeah.

[00:35:09] This is before Che g p d was even around, this is in the early days, but like, basically it was so rehearsed. Mm-hmm. It was so polished. It was, it was like a talking point for President Biden. Like, it, like that, that's, that's how it, you know, sometimes it feels when you give people the questions ahead of time.

[00:35:25] So then I, so then I was like, well, nevermind. You know, screw that. Um, I'm not gonna give questions ahead of time. And then I'd have conversations where people would be like, caught off guard. Cause I'd ask a pretty pointed question like, Hey, I really wanna understand why do you think your video ads, you know, perform significantly better than your competition?

[00:35:43] When you're spending, you know, the same amount as they are on YouTube ads or something, like, I'd ask a very specific question and they'd be like, oh, I don't know. Like, I think our brand just, you know, really stands out and, and you get like a fluffy sure answer. Mm-hmm. And that's not because, you know, they don't, it's not because that, that individual's not smart, it's just because they didn't really have the [00:36:00] time to like think through why, and they're trying to answer for the very first time.

[00:36:04] So all that is to say is coming up with the right questions. To give to your guest is really hard to do ahead of time if you're gonna give them any questions at all. I'm kind of, of the mindset now that you do give questions, but you know, you, you give them, I, I give them like 24 to 48 hours ahead of time.

[00:36:21] No more. Cuz if you give too much time, then they have too much time to prepare, overthink it. So 24 to 48 hours ahead of time. Um, a and you, you, you make it clear like, Hey, these are some like, starter questions that I wanna have to kind of get us going. So I, I might give them the first three questions and be like, all right, here's, here's how we're gonna kick off the conversation from here.

[00:36:39] We're gonna see how things go. And that seems to be like a, a, a good, that seems to be working well, at least, at least right now. Sure. Yeah. And I 

[00:36:46] Pat Gomez: mean, there's a lot of different ways to go about it, but that creates a nice organic conversation. You know, the guest is gonna be prepared, but they're not gonna be overanalyzing.

[00:36:52] And much like I pointed out with bad guests that I've, you know, Experienced, they're not gonna be super rehearsed and it's not [00:37:00] gonna sound rigid and robotic and fake almost. You know, you want that personal aspect of it, you know, when you, again, we've been talking about this medium and we're developing a relationship with the listeners and, and when you get that super rehearsed response, like you said, it just feels like you're watching a press release or something like that.

[00:37:17] Or listening to Yeah, exactly. Listening to npr and that's not what we're doing. You know, we're, we're, we're here on a podcast, we're being a little bit more informal and we're. And we're sticking to the topic and having some fun with it. Hopefully. 

[00:37:29] Zach Busekrus: So. Absolutely, totally agree. So, so, and to answer your question a little bit more concisely, I would just say that, like the bad guess.

[00:37:35] Mm-hmm. Right? Like the worst, the worst opportunity. The, the worst you could be on a podcast is if you already have your answers and you're basically like reading off of a, you know, uh, Google doc while you're being, while you're being interviewed. That's the absolute worst. You know, the, the other thing that I would throw into like the worst category is just when.

[00:37:53] You come onto a show with like low energy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, you don't mm-hmm. You don't have to be boring like an extrovert. [00:38:00] You don't have to be, you know, you, you don't have to be like loud and like over exaggerative. Like, you don't have to not be yourself. But if you come to a, a podcast interview and you're just kind of like low energy, it's, it's like really hard to listen to you.

[00:38:14] It's off-putting and like, it is. It is. And even if you, even if you are really, really, really smart, but you kind of come on with like, I don't know, like attitude and the worst is attitude and Right. Like, uh, not engaging. Uh, that's, that's the absolute, like worst. Like I just wanna like, kind of like, you know, tune you out.

[00:38:32] If you're low energy and you kind of have like a, you know, stank face kind of like a value. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that, that's just, it's just, and it doesn't, at that point, it doesn't matter how smart you are, it's, I just can't listen to you. Like, it's just tough. Maybe that's just a personal preference. No, I'm with you.

[00:38:44] I'm, 

[00:38:45] Pat Gomez: I'm right there with you. Um, let me ask you, have you had guests, and I think I know the answer to this, but have you had guests that were so bad that you didn't publish an episode? 

[00:38:53] Zach Busekrus: Yeah, I have. And that's, and, but, but, but I would say not as frequently as you'd think [00:39:00] because there have been so many times where it's like, our production calendar is like running tight and we need to get an episode out right.

[00:39:06] Or whatever. And I'm going like, whatever. Like, let's just push this. Um, so honestly, there are episodes I wish never aired. I'll just leave it at that. I won't, I won't give you any more anymore. And, and, uh, uh, well, we're getting away from, from that. That's just the truth. Yeah. Yeah. We are, we're getting 

[00:39:19] Pat Gomez: away from forcing that kids now that we, now that we have our calendar filled with other shows and there's some Fantastic.

[00:39:24] Exactly. Shameless plug here. Some fantastic and RFI podcast network shows out there right now. We just launched the couple new ones. There are talking tactics with day kibbles. We've got, I wanna work there with Eddie Francis, confessions of a higher ed, c m o with Jamie Hunt. I mean, we have got some bangers out there, so 

[00:39:39] Zach Busekrus: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:40] We do. There's no reason for us that's why people should go bad content. Yeah. Uh, yeah, that was, that was definitely earlier on. Um, The other thing. The other thing, I'll just, a couple last things I'll just guess on being guests on podcasts. Cause I think the majority of you who are listening to this conversation, you're probably not gonna start your own podcast, but all of you should go be a guest on a podcast.

[00:39:59] Mm-hmm. Again, if you [00:40:00] care about, you know, increasing your network, if you care about just, even, even like putting in the reps, maybe, maybe one day you wanna speak at a conference. Right. Or maybe, maybe you, you do speak at conferences regularly, but you've never. Diversified, you know, your, your content material in the context of podcasting.

 

[00:40:16] These are, these are really good tips for you to pay attention to. So beyond like, you know, being low energy, like don't be low energy if you have to go and like, do some pushups or go like, you know, do a quick run or whatever, like drink a soda. You know, whatever you gotta do before you get on, on, on the pod, even if you kind of have to fake.

[00:40:31] Being like excited. Mm-hmm. Fake it till you make it. People like the, your audience will, the audience will feed off of that and they'll take you way more seriously and they'll have, they'll have more fun with you. Totally. 

[00:40:43] Pat Gomez: One tip that I can give for that too, if that is something that you struggle with and you're gonna be guested on an episode, smile.

[00:40:50] And that is, it sounds silly, but just, just smiling. Whether you're, whether you're on stage, whether you're having a conversation with [00:41:00] somebody or you know, whether you're delivering a speech in front of a lot of people, whether you're a musician, they tell the same things to singers. Smile. Yeah. Same thing as to dancer.

[00:41:07] Watch Dancing With the Stars. Those guys are always smiling, right? It, it elevates the rest of your body language. It's hard to smile and slouch and have poor posture, and it's hard to smile and speak with a monotone demeanor. Um, so the little thing, and also just keep in mind too, podcasting is such a low stress, low pressure medium.

[00:41:26] If you are a guest and you're new and you're nervous, that's okay. Being nervous is okay, but with the magic of editing, Yeah, we can fix a lot of things. You know, if your episode goes poorly, if you stutter, don't worry about it, man. Stop, restart. And we can just chop that thing right out. There's a moment earlier on in this episode where I get super parched.

[00:41:43] You're not gonna know it ever happened, but I did. I coughed. It took about 35 seconds and we got back to it, and that's the beauty of 

[00:41:49] Zach Busekrus: editing. Exactly. It is, it is the beauty of editing. Um, the other thing I I would just say too is if you wanna be a really great guest, find, find a way to try to make it [00:42:00] really feel like a conversation.

[00:42:01] Yeah. And not an interview. Yep. Right. Yep. There, there's, there is this incredible pro, maybe the best I have heard, So I'm a big fan of the, my First Million podcast. Mm-hmm. Uh, Sam Par, who's the founder of The Hustle, who sold the HubSpot, you know, media company. They're, they're, they were a competitor. They are a competitor to like Morning Brew, for instance.

[00:42:19] Right. HubSpot bought them. They have this cool show, um, but it's, it's actually Sam's co-host, Sean Perri, who he was, he, uh, was, you know, at Twitch for a while. He, his startup had been acquired by Twitch. He's sort of just, you know, now seen as kind of like an internet kind of famous investor slash. Creator.

[00:42:37] Uh, anyhow, Sean did an interview with, um, Hussan. Minaj and who? The comedian. Okay. And I, and do you know, do you know, I don't know if I'm saying his name right. I don't know. I don't know who that is. I dunno. I think it's Hu so, so you, you'd probably recognize him. He did a Netflix show, um, called, yeah, I don't, it was basically like his version of last week tonight with John Oliver, but it was called something [00:43:00] else.

[00:43:00] Okay. Anyways, it was a Netflix show. Didn't, you know it, it was canceled. He's actually done a couple of like, Netflix, like standups now. He's sort of like an up and coming, uh, Indian, uh, uh, comedian. I think I, I think I know, but yeah, he's like, he's, he's, he's young. He's cool. He's kind of got like this rep for being like, Funny, but also just like really smart.

[00:43:18] Mm-hmm. And he is, you know, he's kind of building out a cool little media empire for himself. Anyhow, uh, if you're not familiar with Huss and Minaj, go, just Google him. But he, um, he did an interview on the My first Million podcast with Sean Purry. And one of the things that I thought was so interesting about that I would, I would highly recommend everyone, even if you don't care about.

[00:43:36] Business podcast at all. Even if you don't care about Huss Minaj at all, go listen to this interview because the way, you know, Hassan's the guest on, on this, you know, interview, this podcast interview. But the way that that conversation moves and unfolds and sort of takes twists and turns, you almost, if you were just listening to that episode, you, you probably wouldn't know who the host was.

[00:43:57] Mm, mm-hmm. Right? Like who the interviewee was. And [00:44:00] I, it was like a two hour something. It was crazy. It was super long. I listened intently to every word. In that podcast, the way that the cadence was between these two folks, the way that Husan wasn't afraid to give context, he said like, I don't know, like five times.

[00:44:15] Like he's like, you know, honestly I have no idea. Like, I don't even know how to answer your question. Cool. Which was like so refreshing. Yeah. Cause people fake it till you, you know, people. Fake shit all the time. Mm-hmm. They, they, they come back with things that, or, or, or they just repeat things that they've heard because they want to sound like decently intelligent.

[00:44:30] They don't, we're, we're all kind of scared of sounding stupid. No. And Hussan like in this interview, just like, does a really good job at like, not. Like not caring. Yeah. And it, but it's so respectful. It's such an interesting conversation. So highly, highly recommend giving you listen. But all that is to say, it's a very, very long way of saying right, that if you can make the conversation, feel sorry.

[00:44:52] If you can make, if you can make the interview feel like a conversation and not just in an interview, that's gonna be a win for your host. It's gonna be a win for, for the audience, and [00:45:00] therefore, it'll also be a win for you sold. 

[00:45:06] Pat Gomez: Coming, coming, coming from the, the, the podcast host, master himself, Zach Booza Cruz.

[00:45:11] You heard it here first. That's how you get it done. Uh, 

[00:45:14] Zach Busekrus: well, dude, um, this has been fun. Uh, any, any sort of last things you wanna leave the, uh, the audience with today? I feel like we, we covered a lot. Hopefully folks walk away with, uh, some, some good value here. Anything else you wanna add? No, 

[00:45:25] Pat Gomez: I think we've hit the nail on the head.

[00:45:26] I appreciate you having me. This has been fun to join and looking forward to the opportunity maybe to get on here and, and speak a little bit more in the future. 

[00:45:34] Zach Busekrus: Awesome, man. Well, you are welcome, sir. Anytime, um, you, you know, you have a lot of influence uh, these days. You can just decide to not like publish these episodes.

[00:45:43] That's true. You have a lot of control. I could sabotage the entire 

[00:45:46] Pat Gomez: network if I so pleased. 

[00:45:48] Zach Busekrus: You could. Uh, if you've got any complaints about the Enroll five Podcast Network, please direct. Them to patt a tify.org. 

[00:45:57] Pat Gomez: It's Patrick, actually. It's Patrick. Shouldn't I shouldn't have. Oh, it's Patrick. Yeah.

[00:45:59] [00:46:00] patrick@enrollify.org. Do you have any s Send them my way. You can send your complaints to Zach. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:46:06] Zach Busekrus: Uh, but, uh, dude, thank you so much for what you do and, and in all seriousness, if you're listening in and you have, you know, in following us for a while, if you've listened to other shows on our network, if you wanna be on one of our shows too mm-hmm.

[00:46:16] And you just wanna like. Practice like, hey, like, you know, hit us up. We might be able to find kind of a, a good show for you and Pat, pat might be able to find a good show for you. And if you've got a topic that you really feel like you've flushed out and you think that you've. You know, got some good thought leadership behind it.

[00:46:29] You wanna be known for this? Come, come do some reps with us. Totally. Totally open invitation to anyone tuning in. Fine as fine 

[00:46:34] Pat Gomez: as on LinkedIn. Patrick Gomez here with enroll I, or you can, you can uh, send us an inquiry directly from the enroll i website or email either one of us. We'd love to put you in touch with some of our hosts.

[00:46:43] We'd love to get you on. 

[00:46:45] Zach Busekrus: Awesome. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Thanks Pat for joining us. Thank you.

[00:46:56] Hey y'all. Zach here from Enroll. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Enroll I [00:47:00] podcast. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you reading a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcast.

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