Why Higher Ed Marketers Should Care WAY More about Design

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Zach: Hey guys, Zach here. I want to invite you to join me at Element four 50 one's Engage Summit on June 27th and 28th in Raleigh, North Carolina. When it comes to the student experience, we know that you wanna be a trusted guide from recruiting all the way to graduation. Well, the Engaged Summit brings the best minds in higher ed together to give you the strategy and tools that you need to create a cohesive student experience from start to finish, explore the latest technologies, increase your skillset, and gain insight into today's students to deliver the most powerful and personalized digital engagement experience every step of the way.

[00:00:41] This is not your standard ed tech user conference. This is a dynamic inspirational. An empowering event for all higher ed marketers and admissions professionals. I'll be presenting at this year's event, along with some of your favorite higher ed LinkedIn and Twitter follows. You can learn more about this event and register for it at Engage [00:01:00] dot element four 50 one.com.

[00:01:02] Oh, and you can get $50 off your registration when you use the discount code in Enroll five 50. That's enroll 5 5 0 at checkout. So go ahead, check it out. RSVP at. Engage dot element 50 one.com. Looking forward to seeing you all there.

[00:01:44] All right, Joel. We are. We are live. Good, sir. How are you? This fine morning. 

[00:01:49] Joel: I'm doing great, Zach. 

[00:01:50] Zach: How are you? I'm, uh, I'm doing okay. I have to admit, I'm a, I'm a little jealous because you have this like, super badass setup right now, and I'm, I'm [00:02:00] like stuck in one of those, like telephone booths in a, in a coworking space.

[00:02:03] But, uh, I really admire your, uh, your setup. Dude, that, that light man, that purple, like neish light is just 

[00:02:09] Joel: epic. It's getting there. Uh, stylistically we're getting there. I've got enough lights. I mean, most of my like recording gear is cuz I, I did studio recording in college and I just went on a spending spree one summer and bought, bought a nice, like, bought a nice recording interface, some nice microphones, and then with podcasting and then kinda like building up a few pieces over time.

[00:02:30] But, uh, I appreciate the kind words. I, uh, I appreciate quality. So yeah, I try to put quality into this. 

[00:02:37] Zach: I love it, man. It's, uh, it's so important. There's nothing like, and I mean, I should say this is how the first like year and a half of me podcasting went where, like you're in an echoey room, you're using sort of your AirPods and your, your computer mic, and it's just, you know, we did it, or at least I did it.

[00:02:55] It worked for, for a time, and now I feel like as podcasting in general [00:03:00] has just. It seems like everybody has a podcast, right? I, I feel like the standard of just what's acceptable to listen to has just, has just significantly been raised. So appreciate you coming on with a, with a fantastic mic. I'd say guests, guests are still learning this, right?

[00:03:13] Like some of the best people that I bring on the show are incredibly smart, incredible, way smarter, way more talented than, than me, but like, yeah, you know, they show up and they've got their. Little like MacBook mic and, uh, they're in like a noisy conference room. 

[00:03:27] Joel: Those MacBook mics are getting better, but you can't deal with the room noise as well as, you know, sit in a quiet room, get some headphones.

[00:03:35] It's just, it's little things you can do that infinitely improve the quality. Yes. 

[00:03:39] Zach: So, uh, you would think that this is a show about podcasting, but friends, that's where, that's where you would be wrong. Joel, I, I'm actually thrilled to have you on the pod because I've followed you on social media for a while now.

[00:03:50] I've been somewhat familiar with. Uh, bravery work. I feel like it, it kind of appears in my feed, or I hear or see somebody that I respect and follow. Good. [00:04:00] That's who we're share something or, but I, but I've never, I, I don't really know anything about anything about bravery. Yeah. This is actually the first time we've actually connected on any sort of, Chat.

[00:04:10] And so I, I'm just excited to learn a little bit more about who you are, how you think, how you see higher ed, the opportunities that you see in, in higher ed marketing and higher ed branding. But I thought we'd, we'd start by sharing, having you really share a little bit about sort of your own kind of creative journey.

[00:04:26] So I, you know Yeah. From stocking your LinkedIn, right? You are, you are a creative through and through, you studied media in college. You have a master's degree from the new school, which is one of the most. Exciting kind of progressive schools in this arena. I just wanna hear a little bit from you about your own sort of creative journey.

[00:04:44] Like where were you born? Kind of just thinking, I like cool, nice pretty things. Like did you, at what point in time did you realize, huh, I, I, I see the world a little bit differently than some 

[00:04:56] Joel: others. Yeah, I, I think it's, I think it's been [00:05:00] since I was a kid. I mean, you know, opening up Ms Paint on our old, old 3 86 computer and like recreating album art and stuff like that to getting to junior high and um, you know, finding ways to use Photoshop and uh, create my, learn how to use Photoshop basically.

[00:05:18] And in college, I, you know, I always kind of put a lot of, a lot of design work into. Into projects I was doing, I mean my, my media promotions major in undergrad was kinda like a mix between communication and marketing, um, and pr and I really wanted to go in the music industry. I grew up a musician. I, I don't, I, I interned in the music industry and then realized I don't wanna be in that industry for a lot of different reasons.

[00:05:42] But, uh, I've always tried to kind of put that. That creative, uh, design mind to stuff that I'm doing and, uh, and, and try to be well-rounded I think is really what it is. I can be just really, really smart about like a certain thing, but I wanna make sure that I can effectively communicate that and design's just a really, [00:06:00] it's probably the only way to do that.

[00:06:01] Really. Yeah. You know, really well in today's world and it just kind of propelled me through and it's kind of a problem cuz like you end up being like a jack of all trades where you can do. Everything. Yeah. 

[00:06:12] Zach: I, I wanna hear the story behind why you decided to channel your, your creativity in, into the higher ed space.

[00:06:19] Because again, you interned in the music industry. You, every creative that I know has like, done like 12 different things and they've Yeah. Worked on like crazy cool projects. Yeah. Where they've been, you know, next to somebody famous and then they've, you know, been working for like, some trade show and, you know, making 50 bucks for 12 hours of work.

[00:06:37] Right. Like, and everywhere in between. Right? Yeah. And, and that seems to be sort of the life of, at least the creators and, uh, and creatives in, in my network. So, but I'm always curious o once they do find, find their lane like, Why did they choose, uh, the particular lane that they fell into? So what was it about higher ed that spoke to you as, as a place where you could really, you know, carve out a, a, a nice niche for yourself?[00:07:00] 

[00:07:00] Joel: Yeah, so I graduated right into that, that first recession. Well, I mean, not first recession, but you know, right into that recession around like 2000. Well, I graduated in 2006 from undergrad, so recession moving in 2007, 2008. Uh, it was really hard to get. A job out of college and I still was kind of looking at music industry or, or I really wanted to go into like festival pro promotion, do live event promotion and things like that after, after my stint in the, in the record industry.

[00:07:27] And, uh, it just was really difficult to get a job. Yeah. And. A PR role opened up at my alma mater, and so I took that. So I think it's probably a common story. A lot of, a lot of higher ed pros, especially higher ed marketing pros have probably experienced this. It's, it's a little bit accidental, you know, you take the job that's there.

[00:07:46] Uh, but you know, even, even beyond that, I think. Even in undergrad, I was very involved in, you know, various things that dealt with leadership in at, at the institution. You know, I was working with our, our [00:08:00] VPs of student affairs and like the president every once in a while and all this sort of stuff. And the big thing that has stuck with me my entire career is how much potential higher ed has.

[00:08:10] But how much of it's untapped or at least unrealized, right? Mm-hmm. And so I've really focused my career and, and chosen to stay in higher ed for, you know, the last 17 ish years, uh, to, to kind of harness that potential a little bit more. Yeah. And, and help more institutions realize what. Kind of things they could be doing.

[00:08:30] Yeah. If they just made these like little tweaks, you know, or, or like focused on this thing that you're ignoring, that could be a huge game changer for, you know, for your college or university. I think 

[00:08:39] Zach: about how design has moved from sort of like this luxury good in the mind of, uh, higher education leadership.

[00:08:49] To, to sort of this like necessity as it pertains to marketing and, and, and student recruitment. And of course there were always people that believed that things needed to look nice, right? But design is, is so much [00:09:00] more than looking nice, right? It, it's right the way that all industries, and I think tech and really the internet has probably just accelerated this, this notion.

[00:09:08] But, you know, you Gen Z and, and every generation after. Is only going to pay attention to things that look incredibly great, especially if it's worth paying attention to. It better look fricking amazing to capture and, and also keep attention. And so I feel like the intersection between marketing and design over the last decade, I would even argue specifically over the last five years has, yeah.

[00:09:33] Has has sort of like come to this, this real moment where we realize there, there's an interdependency that we have on each other. This is not, this is not a separate thing. It's not marketing work with the words and then design takeover. This needs to be incredibly collaborative. Right, right. Um, so do you, do you have any kind of stories or just musings or, uh, does that, does that notion speak to you at all?

[00:09:57] Joel: Yeah. You know, I think, I think higher ed has [00:10:00] tunnel vision a lot of times, and it, it takes, we all know how slow the industry moves, but it, it takes a lot to convince and ironically educate, uh, leadership across this, this, uh, this industry in those importance importances, right? So I think there was a time when.

[00:10:19] Uh, design was valued in your, you know, having a great logo or something. Yeah. But then guess what? Everyone redesigned their logos and they all had a shield and a flame in them. I mean, if you look, you look at a lot of brands out there. Yeah. Right. Um, yeah. And well, and then, but there was this like big resistance to crests for a while and you know, like, let's get away from our, our institutional seal.

[00:10:43] Yeah. And create this thing and you know, so then all the marks become very similar and so, You know, that that kind of muddles the water of what brand you have or what identity you have from a visual standpoint. Yeah. Like, well, let's try it with colors. And it's like on the color traditions, like, you know, you have like [00:11:00] two or three main colors and then the way those are applied to, to web and other marketing is interesting and not all.

[00:11:07] Together. Well done. Yeah. Uh, but then there was a huge focus on, on paid advertising and, uh, you know, paid media was, and, and in a lot of cases it's still considered like the silver bullet for an institution. Yeah. But it ignores the fact that what someone sees on another property, you know, on a Facebook or on a Google or on a, uh, you know, on Instagram or on LinkedIn or whatever, has to relate to the visual design that you're using on your institutional website.

[00:11:35] Otherwise, you're, you're creating this like weird disconnect and, uh, and confusion in someone's mind. Yeah. And. So I, I hope that we're finally getting to a point where like the, the quality of design that goes into university and college websites is, is gonna kind of like, Make a huge jump. Yeah. Um, I, I think over the years we've, we've had little points [00:12:00] where some agencies have, have worked with institutions to do really, really nice looking design.

[00:12:06] Um, but the UX may not have been there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, the actual functional part of it. Yeah. And, and I think that's, that's really the crux of it is. We care about something looking pretty and you know, like you were saying, but at what point do we realize that it actually has to do something for us Yeah.

[00:12:21] As well as look pretty. Yeah. And, and the amount of thought that goes into that is it's a lot. And you may not have the expertise on staff to do that, or if you do, you're probably ignoring that person. Right? Yeah. So how do you bring, how do you bring to bear the, the expertise in how to do good user experience, design that kind of more functional.

[00:12:42] Uh, you know, the journey, the focusing on the journey is to get someone to take an action, what those actions are, what the outcome goals are supposed to be. Yeah. As well as make it something that's really beautiful and pleasing and comforting. So, That's, that's kind of the, that's kinda the balance that that higher ed still [00:13:00] is working to strike really well.

[00:13:01] Yeah. And there are more institutions every day that are, that are doing that well. But there are still, you know, I mean, in the US alone we've got, we've got over 4,000 institutions and it's a minority of them that are doing really, really good design. Yeah. And, and I don't think that's for lack of, Not wanting to do it.

[00:13:17] I think it's for lack of not having leadership that understands the importance and the value in actually turning the tide of your enrollment goals, of your fundraising goals of you, all that stuff. 

[00:13:28] Zach: Hey all, Zach here from Enroll Fify. If you like this podcast, chances are you'll like other enroll Fify shows too.

[00:13:34] Our podcast networkers growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks. That are all designed to empower you to become a better, higher ed professional. Our shows feature a selection of the industry's best as your hosts learn from Mickey Danes, Jeremy Tier, Jamie Hunt, Corin Myers, Jamie Gleason, and many, many more.

[00:13:56] You can learn more about the Enroll Fify podcast [00:14:00] network@podcasts.enrollfify.org. Our shows help higher ed marketers and admissions professionals find their next big idea. Find yours@podcast.inify.org. Those are incredible points. And, and I, I do think we're, we're going to have to see sort of a, a, a reallocation of resources in, in order to maintain any sort of competitive, uh, ability.

[00:14:24] Not even a competitive advantage, but a competitive ability. I was talking to my, my sister, it just graduated from high school. She's 18. I was sitting down with her, we were talking about something and she, I, I don't even remember what it was, but it was basically like, Hey, like, uh, let, let me show you this.

[00:14:38] Lemme show you how to do something. Right. And I went to Google, right? And I started Googling like, Hey, this is like, you know, uh, what, what, like, how to tie your shoe or whatever. It wasn't that right. It was something dumb like that. Right? And the first thing that she did was she opened up TikTok and she went to TikTok search.

[00:14:53] Right. And, and what was, what was so interesting was it was like she didn't even. Think twice about it. I didn't think twice about it. [00:15:00] It just, our methods of finding an answer to right, to, to a question were just fundamentally like, yeah, like we literally chose different channels. And I was thinking about this and, and talking with her a little bit more about it.

[00:15:12] I think this was, I think like a couple weeks after there was that article that was trending that like, like 80% of Gen Z uses, uh, TikTok for search or something like that, or Right. TikTok was on a roadmap to overtake Google in terms of search activity from, from Gen Z. What I took away from that was, My, me and, and folks older than me, right?

[00:15:31] We were willing to be patient. To land on, land on a website, right, land on, land, on open, a communication. I even think about Facebook, right? Facebook is pretty ugly actually. Right? If you think about, if you think about the design of Facebook, right? MySpace was way more interesting and way more, way more dynamic, right?

[00:15:47] Than, than Facebook was. Facebook was super simple. If you look at it today, it's, it's a pretty ugly site, right? As it compares to even, even just Instagram, right? It's it's sister property, right? But, but right. I, and, and I [00:16:00] would assume you, we were willing to give that our attention. We were willing to consume information in a format that might have not been the most visually stimulating that for my sister and, and her peers is just, they're just not patient enough.

[00:16:13] Right? So they still want to learn and they're willing Right. They're willing to like give something their attention. It just has to be multisensory. Right. Versus it was okay to at least read the first couple sentences and decide I'm going to keep reading or not. They won't even read the first couple of sentences.

[00:16:30] Right. Right. Regardless of how it looks. And so that's a very, very long and cumbersome way of saying that. I think if these colleges and universities are interested, right, which many of them are in not even increasing enrollment, but just. Retaining kind of en enrollment rates. Yeah. The allocation of resources as it pertains to communications and marketing and design have to be totally shifted.

[00:16:52] And it's just, it's, I don't understand, quite frankly why we haven't felt enough pain in the industry to, to make those [00:17:00] shifts. So why do you think this is, like, is it just, is it really just because leadership is still so out of touch, like surely people are feeling the pain? Right. 

[00:17:09] Joel: It's to your point, it's a, it is a funds allocation, uh, and prioritization of.

[00:17:18] Of, of, you know, of, of, of goals, I guess. Or, or, or it's, or maybe a MISP prioritization of it. Right. And, and I think the, it's, it's interesting because you, you have these institutions that are so focused on, you know, fill the enrollment funnel, fill the enrollment funnel, let, let's just get as many people in the doors as we possibly can.

[00:17:37] Um, and it doesn't matter if they're qualified leads, it doesn't matter if they're actually interested in your institutions, just like get 'em in the funnel and then we'll weed 'em out at some point. It creates a lot of extra work for, for your admissions team for sure. And coming into these seasons, I mean, like as we record this, like we're.

[00:17:54] We're actually probably in a recession or like very, very close to in a recession, despite no one really wanting to talk about it. Yeah. But we're [00:18:00] seeing it across the industry. We're seeing the same sorts of layoffs and firings, and we're seeing the industry flatten a little bit more, but not, you know, as far as services and hiring out goes.

[00:18:10] It's actually been a little bit more constrained than, than a lot of, especially us on the, you know, the, the vendor side of things would expect for, for a recession. Cuz a lot of us worked through the last recession. Yeah. And it was okay, there's. Just this confusion, or it might just be a lack of chill, honestly.

[00:18:28] Mm-hmm. I feel like you're faced with a big challenge and leadership in institutions. There's so much pressure to like fix these things. Yeah. You know, all the way from directors, uh, to VPs to, you know, to presidents that if, if they're super hands-on presidents like. There's just this lack of being able to stop, be calm for, you know, a a a couple minutes and look at what actually needs to be done and where the deficiencies are.

[00:18:54] Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, we're not looking at optimizing what we have already. And so you might have a, you might have [00:19:00] something that's good enough. Yeah. But, you know, by putting, you know, putting $15,000 into like, like kind of. Evolving your design language a little bit more, uh, and fixing some things on the website or, or fixing some of the journeys that you have.

[00:19:15] You can, you can offset like a ton of that fear, you know, that's, that's kind of entered into the equation just by kind of fixing these, these journeys or at least auditing and, and making sure that you have the data to make smart decisions. And it, it's, it's really difficult. And then you, you actually said something earlier about that, that I think is, is a really.

[00:19:35] It, it's a hidden, it's a hidden point that that doesn't get talked about a lot, but this idea of retention in, in higher education. Mm. Like we focus on this external marketing, good design, like make sure the website's good, make sure the ads are good. Make sure our video production for, for ads are really good.

[00:19:51] Make sure we've got a great campus tour. You know, whatever those things are. But then we forget about the student experience when they get there. Mm. And we [00:20:00] have these internal systems that are enterprise grade and are really ugly and really difficult to use and don't talk to each other. And so when I think about it deeply, I think it, it's, it's one of those things that corporate America has latched onto in the last 20 years of having this sense of design thinking throughout the organization.

[00:20:19] Yeah, because. If your staff are happy, then you're gonna retain them, right? So if your, if your students as an institution are happy, you're gonna retain your students better. And a lot of times it really just comes down to like the day-to-day administrative stuff that they have to do to interface with your institution is ugly and hard and doesn't get any.

[00:20:38] Any visual or, or you know, the whole like surprise and delight stuff that comes up in, in, in design circles, which I think is really cheesy, but it but is true. They're not getting any of that. All they're getting is friction and pain and frustration. Yeah. When they're trying to register for classes or trying to, you know, return a book to the library or, you know, whatever else is, we don't put the, we don't put the [00:21:00] time and thinking into the student experience the same way that we do in the prospective student experience.

[00:21:04] Yeah. So it's. It's similar to that transition from, uh, you know, from a, a paid ad that someone clicks on to a website that doesn't quite fit that brand. Yeah. Same thing. If you're going from a prospective student that, uh, that is accepted and you go through this whole onboarding period to, you know, to, to become a student and do new student orientation, and then you get to campus and everything is just real crappy.

[00:21:28] That's a, that's a problem. Yeah. Like that's, that's really bad for your retention rates. But I think the focus doesn't look at, at those sort of, you know, what some people call like soft products sort of things. Yeah. Um, it looks a lot more at, well, what software can we put in place to fix this? Yeah. Or maybe if we just caught these students earlier when they're struggling in classes, it's like, sure.

[00:21:50] And those are also val very valid points, but, Experience is also real, is one of those things that affects whether someone's doing well in [00:22:00] class. Yeah. Whether someone's adjusting to the community, whether someone's finding a way to fit in and we just don't look at it. Yeah. We don't, we don't focus on it.

[00:22:07] Zach: I wonder too, if, if that I, the reason why this is the way that it is, is because for years, right, once, once somebody signed up, they. Deposited, they paid tuition. Right? There was a lot of shame maybe, and also just a lot of friction in leaving. Like once you're in, right? It's like, oh God, do I really want to go through?

[00:22:27] Do I really wanna like leave? Do I, are my credits gonna transfer? Are like all, you know, what's it gonna be like to go home And all my friends and family are gonna be like, well, you failed, or whatever. Or like, right. You know, or, or the idea of transferring seems so cumbersome. And yet I would argue that we're living through a moment where, I see parents, people in my own family actually praising their college students for deciding, you know what?

[00:22:51] I tried this for a couple semesters and it's not for me. Or like, you know what? I'm gonna go right. I'm gonna take a year off and then I'm gonna go back. Or, you know what? I'm actually gonna start at community college. I got [00:23:00] into these great schools, but it's so expensive. I'm not entirely sure what I wanna do yet.

[00:23:03] Lemme just start. At community college, save a ton of money and then see where I end up. Right. And yeah, it's the same sister I was talking to, like half of her class. Right. And she goes to a really, really great school. She, she was saying that half of her class is either taking some sort of year off. Right.

[00:23:19] And or, and I should say she comes from a really small, like it's a very, it's a good school. It's a very small, like 25 person, like graduating class. Right. So there 

[00:23:26] Joel: you're small liberal. I, I graduated from, I graduated from one of 

[00:23:29] Zach: those. Okay. Okay. Um, and so yeah, just the, our list. Or something like 50%.

[00:23:33] Right. So it's like 1212 people, right? Roughly, yeah. Are either are, are, are going to take some time off either doing a gap year and or are going to start at community college first. Simply for like reasons that they don't know what they wanna do. They've seen their older siblings Sure. Get into incredible debt.

[00:23:48] Right. Um, and you know, for all the things that everyone in the media always talks about with respect to higher ed. Anyways, all that is to say right, is maybe we're living through a time and a season [00:24:00] where, Retention actually is incredibly important to focus on because students don't have the same levels of shame and, or the same, you know, patience, uh, to just kind of grin and bear it as yeah, as they did.

[00:24:15] Um, and, and maybe that's something that we're encountering in this, in this moment as well. 

[00:24:20] Joel: Yeah. I mean, to your point, we look across the industry at these, you know, tuition driven small private colleges Yeah. That have been closing. At a rate that's faster than anything I've seen, you know, in the last almost 20 years of being in the industry.

[00:24:36] And a lot of that is because they, they are tuition dependent, right? Yeah. It's, it's, it's all based on how many people they can get in. But you can, you can kind of flip that script by making sure that you retain those people by providing that really great experience and. We're not talking necessarily. I mean, I think this is, some of this is actually really good, but we're not talking necessarily about all this stuff that, that professors and faculty [00:25:00] have complained about for years around like, whoa, it's too easy for students and we're, we're giving them too much leeway.

[00:25:05] And, you know, that kind of stuff. We're just talking about fixing the, the day-today. Cultural, like, you know, administra Yes. That everyone has to deal with like the, like get rid of the friction of just being a student. Yeah. So that they can focus more on the learning and focus more on the community and all those really formative things that come with.

[00:25:25] Going to college. Yeah. Um, if they're on campus, and especially if you're online. So here's a story I like, we talked at the, at the top of the show about, I, I got my master's degree from the new school. So I, I was living in Chicago, working at an institution there and was getting my degree online. Okay. And new school, I think was doing online, online degrees in the nineties.

[00:25:46] I mean, they're one of the just oldest for Wow. You know, they've been doing a long, long time and, I loved my program. I made some really good friends. The whole reason I was able, you know, to move to Austin was cuz I had met a friend in [00:26:00] grad school and we bonded over how terrible the experience was and she got me a contract gig in Austin and helped us find an apartment, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[00:26:07] And is still, still a really good friend today. And we met online, um, But you don't want your students bonding over how bad the experience is. Right. That that's the thing you don't want. Yeah. And, and that was our problem. It was, it wasn't just that, you know, we were using Blackboard back in, back when Blackboard was really, really terrible.

[00:26:27] Um, it wasn't just that. Um, you know, the, the, the like student portal stuff was really awful. It was that in the media studies program, they would have these great colloquial, they'd have people come and speak on campus and they wouldn't even live stream it. And you were lucky if you got a recording after the fact.

[00:26:48] I'm like, I'm paying a lot of money for this degree. And like, and it's a media, it's a media study. Yes. It's media program. Like it's. Like, you should be, you should have this stuff in place. Or when it came time to [00:27:00] graduate, this was the worst because, you know, it's, you know, you're just kind of like making a list of all the things that have been really bad during your time at school.

[00:27:07] It's awful. Uh, but, you know, it came time for graduation and my wife and I decided we were gonna go to New York City and, you know, make a little vacation of it. And I was gonna walk and, and do all this stuff and actually maybe meet a few people I've been talking with online for the last two years and, They wanted us to pick up our cap and gown two weeks before.

[00:27:27] I'm like, I'm not flying to New York City to pick up a cap and gown. Yeah. Yeah. And then flying back to Chicago and then flying back to New York City. Like, that's, that's ridiculous. And they couldn't like for, for a school at the time that had done online and, and distance education for so long, they, they hadn't thought through this process.

[00:27:45] Yeah. Like, what about this new generation of online students that. You know, want to participate and feel connected to the institution. Don't put roadblocks in that way. Yeah. Like, and, and I think that's, it's, it's this [00:28:00] struggle. This is, I mean this is something I've, I've had conversations about for 10 years, but it's this struggle between the, the, the lingering thought that online is a different place and a totally different sort of thing, and like, There are differences in how you communicate and that sort of thing, but you wanna have a cohesive community across all of your alumni, across all of your students, right?

[00:28:21] You want them to have experiences that at least resonate very true to the core values of your brand. Yeah. Not be like, online students are sitting over here and you get nothing because we don't see you every day like, That when you're doing it online, it's, it's, it's kind of for convenience, it's, well, it's a lot for convenience cuz like, I wasn't able to quit work and live in New York City for two years for grad school.

[00:28:46] They're not looking to like, make their lives harder. Yeah. And the same way that, you know, your, your students that are on campus also don't want their lives to be harder when they're trying to 

[00:28:55] Zach: learn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a, that's a really keen insight [00:29:00] and I think something that, It's just a good reminder for everybody, right?

[00:29:04] That, and, and I mean, like, especially at the graduate level, online programs are, you know, everyone's talking about them. Everyone's spinning them up. They all, many of them look the same. Everyone's looking for a competitive advantage like, Some differentiator, right? And maybe your differentiator really could be community and how you, how you obsess, right?

[00:29:21] Like literally obsess over how to make everyone feel like they're a part of something, even if there are, you know, right. In 50 different locations zooming into to, to a class. Right. Um, I 

[00:29:31] Joel: want that stuff to become table stakes. Yeah. And, and it, and, and it should be like the, the, the experience side of it should be table stakes so that you can focus on.

[00:29:41] The curriculum again. Yeah. You know, yeah. You can focus on how, how much quality you have in the education, but if, if the student experience side is awful, it doesn't really matter how much quality you have in your programming, uh, in the teaching and the, the, the faculty that you have teaching, it doesn't [00:30:00] really matter if they can't get past how terrible the actual experience of it 

[00:30:04] Zach: is.

[00:30:04] Yeah. Yeah. Quick, quick, uh, anecdote here. And then I, I wanna talk to you about Hospitable design, which is this framework that you've been like crafting with, with the team at Bravery. And I, uh, I definitely wanna dive into that, but real quick, uh, last story here I was talking, I have another podcast in the short-term rental, kind of like Airbnb space.

[00:30:22] And I was talking to somebody who is well-versed in software that supports, uh, short-term mental hosts that have. Tons of Airbnbs, right? Yeah. Like 10 to 300 Airbnbs. And they're well connected with, with the software engineers at, at Airbnb. Anyways, one of the things this, this gentleman was telling me, literally just yesterday, he was saying that Airbnb spends tens of millions of dollars a year.

[00:30:47] Okay? Tens of million dollars a year, just focused on after a guest books. So after you click pay, right, until you check out everything that happens in [00:31:00] that period of time, again, Airbnb is not your host, right? This isn't like people spending a bunch of money making sure that there's enough toilet paper and like good linens, right?

[00:31:08] But, but the communication, the app experience, when you pull up your app at. The location that you're staying at. All. All those little touch points, right? Making sure you get in. Okay. They spend tens of millions of dollars per year just focused on that one micro step, right? Right. Why do they do that? Well, because they know, right?

[00:31:29] Getting people to buy right is just the first hurdle. Right? Getting them to ensure that they've. Experience the great product, right? Which, again, Airbnb has not a ton of control over the actual product that you receive, right? Because that's, that's on the host to make sure that you've got a nice place to stay.

[00:31:45] They, they have limited control there, but they want to make sure that your digital experience, right, while you're, while you're staying, is as optimal as humanly possible because right, they want you to come by again. Yep. And so anyways, all that is to say is that [00:32:00] if, I think sometimes and people are like, oh, well, you know, we don't have the budgets of Airbnb.

[00:32:04] Sure. But if a major, if a major, major tech company. Who is, you know, synonymous for the category of, they, they're the Kleenex, right. Of, of the short term rental, uh, category. Right. If they are still spending gobs and gobs and gobs of money on that one little step. Yeah. Right. What, what, what should that say to us about how we think about retention?

[00:32:28] Well, Zach, people 

[00:32:30] Joel: at these institutions still think that they can get. An institutional website redesign that that's gonna perform for them, done for, you know, $50,000 or less. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's that performance part that is, that's, that's the key there is that, going back to the first conversation we had today, like this idea that.

[00:32:53] Design just needs to look pretty and communicate. It's yes. Like that's, that's it. But if you want to get down to like [00:33:00] the, the really dry, cold business realities of it. Yeah. Like, That website needs to perform, it needs to convert people into applicants or into inquiries. Yep. And great design can do that, but it does take a lot of money.

[00:33:14] And, and the thing here is that you know them saying, well, we don't have the budgets for this. The old adage, you have to spend money to make money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you want to increase the enrollment to cover the cost that you're paying, you have to pay a little bit more there. And I mean, we've seen it time and time again with our clients.

[00:33:29] We, you know, we did a project, uh, With, with Seth Odell, who I know, you know, um, when, you know, before he started Cana hoa and they spent not a lot of money with, with bravery, and we generated 10 million in their first year of having our designs live. Because because we spent the time researching, we spent the time focusing on the user.

[00:33:48] We spent the time doing really good crafted design meant to convert. Yeah. And you don't hear those numbers in higher ed. And so like, I I, I, I've had this conversation with a few people and. Uh, [00:34:00] so our work paid for itself in eight days. Like, that's, that's the way that I kind of like to say it. It's like, and you don't, you don't see that a lot and in-house you're, unless you're, you're either gonna pay a lot of money for people with really great expertise in-house pay for their salaries at.

[00:34:15] Market rate, you're gonna, you're gonna need to go market rate. Yeah. Or you're not going to get people that are going to Airbnb. Yeah. Or going to, you know, that can do this research and do this design work and you're gonna need multiples of them and not just one person that does everything, which is the current state of higher ed in a lot of places.

[00:34:31] Uh, it's either gonna cost you a lot of money to have that team in house or it's gonna cost you. Maybe, maybe a bit less, but it's still gonna cost you a, a significant amount of money to go out to a vendor. And either way, you need to spend that money in order to increase that enrollment. I think it's the same thing on the retention.

[00:34:48] On the retention side. Yeah. You look at how many, how much attrition you have on campus, and you say like, well cool, if I can take, you know, 10 of the 20 students that we're losing every year, what does that do [00:35:00] for our bottom line? And then think about what spend you need to do to get that back. Yeah. Um.

[00:35:06] It's incremental and I mean, it's kind of, it's, it's fairly basic business stuff, but like, it doesn't get thought about a lot in, in that 

[00:35:14] Zach: way. Yeah. You know, uh, uh, a thought that just occurred to me as you were sharing that, uh, and yeah, Seth, Seth and and their, his team are, are incredible, but like, I'm thinking like, you know how.

[00:35:25] Advancement. Right. You go and, and you know, people, people go, they build, they build a new building. They find some major donor to come and slap their name on, on that building, right? And it's McCarthy Hall for the next, you know, 50 years or whatever it is, right? Like, why can't advancement go and say, Hey, you wanna build the best digital building, like the digital storefront of this university for a fraction of what, what these donations are or, uh, uh, for, for these tangible, physical, that buildings.

[00:35:56] Yeah. Right. Like you'd, you'd think that there'd be some, and [00:36:00] I'm sure that people have tried this, but like you think that there'd be some way. To incentivize donors of like, Hey, help us help fund the best website in higher ed. Work closely with Marcom teams, work closely with vendors like bravery to like, help make that happen.

[00:36:14] And like, imagine Joel, if like you and your team are given, you know, 10 times the resources that you normally have to play with. Oh, yeah. Right. Like you could do, you, you guys have the talent, right? And it Oh yeah. It's really just, it's really just about like making sure that there's enough time, there's enough time being covered where you can dedicate like, All the time that you want to tweak the CTA or, or, or really, really think critically about the nav or whatever.

[00:36:38] It's Right. And 

[00:36:39] Joel: that's exactly it. You know, AB testing isn't funded, like doing optimization on the website you have isn't funded. And to your point, I mean, I, I haven't really thought about that on the advancement side. I spent a little bit of time in advancement and I think that's, that's really smart.

[00:36:50] You could even say like, Yeah. Do you really want to spend 40 million, uh, with us as a donation? Cool. You can fund the website for the next 10 years and we will do [00:37:00] ridiculously great stuff with it. Yeah. And, and it honestly could, it could change the tide for some institutions. Yeah. Because you're not having to worry about.

[00:37:11] The funnel side of it as much as you were before, and you can shift your internal focus to really doing that student experience, right? Yeah. And fixing that side of it. Um, but the money gets allocated to the front end, 

[00:37:24] Zach: right? And maybe, and maybe it's like maybe we're actually at a point in time where there are enough potential.

[00:37:29] Donors. Right. In your, in your ecosystem, in your alumni ecosystem that understand the internet, the, that understand Yeah. Right. The value of, of the digital storefront that maybe now is actually the time where it's, there's people, there are some segment of people that have made a little bit of money or enough money to potentially, you know, have this, have this come to fruition in your context, but, I think this, this is like a super tangible idea.

[00:37:51] Yeah. If I was listening to this, I'd go to my advancement team, see if, Hey, would this even be 

[00:37:56] Joel: possible? Add the, add the, add the bullet to the list on the advancement website saying [00:38:00] like, major gifts. How about the website? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:38:03] Zach: Yeah. Uh, no, but like, hey, I like, hey, if I had gobs of money and I really loved my institution, I, I think that that would be way cooler than just seeing building.

[00:38:12] No, I, I would totally do 

[00:38:13] Joel: it. Um, yeah, I'd 

[00:38:14] Zach: totally do that. This has been a super fun conversation. I do wanna talk about this, this framework that you are, are noodling on right around hospitable design. I'm sure some of the things that we've been touching on, uh, relate to it, but do you wanna just unpack this framework for us?

[00:38:28] Yeah. 

[00:38:29] Joel: So, uh, a couple years ago, I think this is probably like just coming out of the, the Covid Pandemic I had written. Uh, a blog post on my personal site about, uh, about the student experience, actually about, about how we, how we develop this affinity with, with our, our students and our prospective students as institutions.

[00:38:47] And one of the things that, that came out of it as I was, as I was kind of thinking through this blog post, was the fact that higher ed institutions are actually kind of hospitality industry on top of education because we essentially [00:39:00] run restaurants. They may not be great. Uh, we, we run, uh, You know, like a hotel sort of, I mean, we're basically like resorts without a lot of the fun stuff.

[00:39:10] And, and there's a lot that goes into doing that well, right? Yeah. You don't want, like, you know, the, the, we lost small institutions that we, that we either work with or, or have worked with in the past. A lot of the negative, uh, comments about student experiences is how awful the dorms are because they're run down and aren't, you know, that sort of thing.

[00:39:28] So this idea of hospitable design. Is, is really, it's not focused just on higher ed, but I think it does apply really well to higher ed. It's the idea that as we're designing things, we need to not just think about the surprise and delight aspect, but we need to think about the care, uh, of the people that are coming onto our websites or interacting with our print media or interacting with even our ads that are going out there.

[00:39:51] And it gets into issues of accessibility, um, both from the standpoint of, of people that use assistive devices, but also like rural [00:40:00] students that have only, are only able, or, or actually some urban students that, that only have access to the internet via their phone and could be on a 3G network or Yeah, could be, could be a really old DSL connection at one mega per second.

[00:40:13] You know, so making sure your websites are fast enough for them to have a great experience. Um, But this idea that hospitality, when you walk into a bar or, or, or a coffee shop or a restaurant that you really like, you look at how, why you really like it. It's because the staff there in most cases. They don't, they don't discriminate against people that are coming in.

[00:40:34] Yeah. Like they, they, they look at that person and right off the bat they're saying, I'm here to give you a good experience and a good time and make sure you have everything that you need and are, and feel cared for in this time that you're spending in our place. Yeah. It's not to say they don't kick people out for being rowdy or like, you know, stand up for themselves and people are being jerks, but this idea that.

[00:40:56] That everyone is, is given, uh, everyone's given the [00:41:00] benefit of the doubt at, at that first kind of look. Mm, I don't think we do that necessarily super well in design that we do globally. And I think higher ed has taken a lot of really good steps towards that. But there are. This is something that applies to visual design.

[00:41:14] It's something that applies to how you design your student experience, how you design all these different touch points that people interact with. Yeah. How do you make sure that someone feels cared for in every single instance? Because the more you feel cared for, um, the more you're gonna connect with that brand or, or that experience.

[00:41:32] Yeah. And, uh, you know, I, I think about, you know, coming outta the pandemic. I, I'm sure a lot of people had similar experiences, but like the thing that I miss the most during. You know, being locked down in my house for, for however long that was. What is time? Uh, The thing I miss the most was being able to, you know, go to go to the brewery and sit at, sit at the bar and eat some tacos and have a couple beers and talk with the staff, and you just like, feel that, that kind of [00:42:00] connection in the larger community that we have, but also feel that connection with people who I developed a relationship with over, over years.

[00:42:05] You know, supporting, supporting their, their wifi network for some reason, like, you know, doing all kinds of stuff for them. Or, or going to our favorite restaurants and, you know, being able to see the staff that, that are there, you know, behind the counter who we've, we've really developed relationships with.

[00:42:21] Yeah. Those are the things that hit me the hardest in the pandemic and coming out were the things that brought me the most joy. Yeah. Is being able to go back out in the, into the world and connect with those people again. And it's not because I just really liked the food or, you know, the quality of the, the quality of the interior design was really good.

[00:42:39] It was a whole package of the people that care. Yeah. And what that care meant to how things were designed and how food was made, and how food was plated, or how beer was brewed, or how their messaging impacted stuff. So like, The framework in general is it, it, it's a lens for us to look at the work that we [00:43:00] do as marketers, but I think even just intentionally as a, as a human, yeah.

[00:43:04] Uh, to be hospitable in whatever area of influence and control that I have towards other people so that they do feel cared for. Um, so, Because it makes our relationships better, I think, for both. Yeah. Uh, but on a marketing standpoint, it makes our marketing that much more potent, right? Mm-hmm. It really generates this connection with other people.

[00:43:25] And, uh, yeah, so we've been, I've been kind of thinking through it. I'm, um, I'm trying to work on a book with sporadically, but dude, I love it, but I love it. Um, It's, it's, uh, it's something that we've tried at bravery to kind of in infuse into all of the work that we do, into how we approach higher ed, into how we approach working with clients.

[00:43:46] It's how can, how can we make sure that we are leading with care? Uh, And then, you know, making sure that we can still have hard, dec hard, hard conversations and make hard decisions at the, at the same time, but [00:44:00] it softens the blow a little bit when they know, you know, when everyone knows that you're looking out for them for like, for what is best for, best for the customer, best for the client, best for best for the best, for your friend, you know best, best for your partner, whatever.

[00:44:12] It's. 

[00:44:13] Zach: Yeah, dude, I, I just wanna commend you because I love that framework and you absolutely should write that book. And I think that that's, I think that you've just, there are all these like, Light bulbs going off in my head right now because one of the things right, that I think we've been addicted to over the last few years in higher ed is, is really talking about like the core product of higher ed being this promise of a job.

[00:44:35] Right? Right. Meaning like that's what, that's what everyone wants. That that is the big dissatisfaction that like the majority of people who are critical of higher ed have is I went, I spent all this money. I graduated and I can't get a job that will pay me what I need to pay off in a meaningful way. All the debt that I just took out Right.

[00:44:54] Right. Or whatever. It's that, that is the core. If you could distill it, that's, that's the challenge for most people. Right. [00:45:00] And that's, that's a very fair challenge. Um, and, and we need to fix that. The other really core product that higher Ed is selling is this experience, right? Yeah. Like we are, we're higher ed is selling this promise that hey, if you come here right, which is why you, you want to, you wanna stay in our dorms, right?

 

[00:45:16] Which is why many, many colleges and universities require freshmen at least to live on campus that first year. Right? Why? Cuz they want people to build these networks. They want people to build community. They want people to, you know, Separate, figure out what life looks like outside of mom and dad's house.

[00:45:32] Right. Right. There are all these reasons for it. Right? Right. It's this ceremonious like becoming an adult. Right. Even though that's arguable, but like a weird rite of passage. It is a weird rite of passage. And yet at the same time, right. Um, If you obsess, if you're an institution that obsesses over that experience in the same way that you know four, when you go to a Four Seasons hotel.

[00:45:53] Right. Right. It's just unbelievably Right. Unbelievably incredible. Right. And you just, you don't even care that the cocktail [00:46:00] costs $27. Right. And you know, it's only worth six. It's like you could get this for, but, but Right. Because of. Because of the glass, it's served and because of where you are when you're drinking it.

[00:46:10] Right, because of, because of the ambiance around you. Right. Because of the service. Right, right. In in your, in a weird way. Like you, you justify it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and anyways, all that is to say is that like in higher ed, yes, we need to fix the core problem, which is we need people to be more job ready.

[00:46:26] We need to, to figure out ways to help people get degrees that are meaningful for less money. We also. Need to obsess over delivering this exceptional experience. And I would even argue, right, that the experience, if you deliver an exceptional experience, right, I bet people might be a little bit more forgiving.

[00:46:49] Yeah. On the outside of how long it takes them to find a job that they consider or they deem to be like worthy enough to help them pay off whatever loans they took out [00:47:00] because the experience was worth it. I think the biggest challenge is for many institutions, the experience is lackluster and I couldn't get a job.

[00:47:08] Joel: Right. Well, maybe part of that hospitable approach to the experience is, Doubling down on connecting students with those jobs as well. It's, it's putting money and resources into developing those connections with companies and corporations and making your degrees actually valuable again, from, you know, from this external world perspective, this business perspective.

[00:47:31] Right? Yeah. Uh, when you can, when you can guide people towards an outcome because you've developed those relationships and haven't just spent time. You know, to be, to be somewhat rude, navel gazing at your, your, your programming and trying to figure out what's wrong with it. Well find those jobs for people.

[00:47:51] Like put yeah, put extra effort into your career services divisions. Like that's, that's a part of caring for your students, a part of lifecycle management. Because honestly, [00:48:00] if those students can't get jobs, they can't become donors. Yeah. They're never gonna afford it. And so you're cutting off your fundraising efforts later on.

[00:48:08] It's, yeah. Yeah, 

[00:48:10] Zach: it's funny and that that's actually why I'm so bullish on like adjunct faculty. I know that like that's, people have a love hate relationship with adjunct, but like I get paid more. I had the best, what'd you say? Hope they get 

[00:48:21] Joel: paid more. 

[00:48:22] Zach: Yeah, exactly. Well that too. Exactly. I had the best class, the best class I ever had in college was an airlines economics class, and it was taught by a former c e o of, uh, spirit Airlines.

[00:48:32] Actually. He was one of those folks that like, I don't even know what the syllabus was like. I don't really know. There was like no textbook, like there was, we would read, like he'd print articles for us to read and then he, he was just such a wealth of knowledge himself that I learned more Yeah. In that class than I think I learned in any other class.

[00:48:49] I, if, if I ever, I went to George Mason University, uh, right outside of DC Yep. If I ever, I have not yet, but if I ever give a gift to George Mason University, it will be because of that adjunct [00:49:00] professor. Yeah. No one else. It'll be, it'll literally be, because I learned. And I was fascinated and how he taught and like he, he, we had tests and stuff, but it was just like, it was, it felt like you had a front row seat to the industry.

[00:49:13] Yeah. And I, you know, I'm not a pilot. I have no plans to be a pilot. I don't think I'll ever work for an airline company. I do love to travel, but like all that is to say is, It wasn't even that I was obs, I cared that much about the industry, but he made me care. Yeah. Like he, he was so compelling. Um, and, and that course alone, right?

[00:49:33] Should I ever give a gift, is, will, will be the reason why I, why I give a gift. Um, so anyways. It's amazing. 

[00:49:41] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:49:42] Zach: It, it, you know, it was, but anyway, this was quite the wide ranging conversation. Joel. Uh, this has been a, a lot of fun. I, this was actually way more fun than I was expecting it to be. Not that I didn't expect it to be fun, 

[00:49:53] Joel: but, um, I aim to, I aim to please Zach.

[00:49:55] I aim to please. Um, 

[00:49:57] Zach: but Joel, I, I do wanna just give you a quick opportunity here for folks that are [00:50:00] listening to this conversation, they've been inspired by it and, or they are, you know, they, we, we've spoken to this part of their soul that has been there for a while, and they're, they, they just want. To figure out what to do next if, if they do want to talk to you and Yeah.

[00:50:13] And the team at bravery, like what's the best way for them to get in touch? 

[00:50:16] Joel: Yeah. Uh, I'm on LinkedIn. Uh, you're probably connected to someone that know that knows me, but Joel Goodman on LinkedIn and, uh, you can visit bravery.co. We also have a, a little short Form 10 minute podcast that we do that's kind of like insider speak from a vendor perspective, so you can kind of hear more candid thoughts on how we're thinking about big problems within higher ed.

[00:50:38] That's called Appendix B, but it's. It's also, uh, linked there on our site, but we got forms, uh, on the site. We got emails. Uh, LinkedIn's probably the best place to find me though. Wonderful. 

[00:50:48] Zach: And if you are listening to this and you wanna connect with Joel and or learn more about bravery, I'll go ahead and link websites and LinkedIn profiles and s to podcasts and all that fun stuff in this show.

[00:50:58] Notes below. Thank [00:51:00] you everybody for tuning in. And Joel, thank you so much for your time, man. 

[00:51:02] Joel: Yeah. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

[00:51:12] Zach: Hey y'all. Zach here from Enroll Fify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Enroll Fify podcast. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button blow. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you reading a rating and a review of this show on podcast.

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