Fire Bullets, Then Cannonballs

Full Transcript

Zach Busekrus: [00:00:00] Welcome to Fanatical Fridays, a weekly podcast where I sit down with Mickey Baines, a principal at Kennedy and Company, which is a higher education consulting firm to discuss the traits, the strategies, and the tactics that separate the best enrollment management teams from the rest of the pack. I'm Zach Busekrus founder here at Enrollify. Enjoy the show.

Would you believe it, folks? Would you believe it? Guess. Guess who is on the other line of this podcast, right? 

Mickey Baines: George Washington The next 

Zach Busekrus: best thing to George Washington. Steve Jobs, uh, . The third, the third best thing next to George Washington is Steve Jobs is, is none other than, than Mickey Baes Mickey.

It's been months May my friend. Uh, how are you? Are you still 

Mickey Baines: alive? [00:01:00] We're, you know, we've been through a nice summer break, um, into the fall break and now we're ready to, Another season. 

Zach Busekrus: Have you been RVing at all this summer? 

Mickey Baines: Not only have I been RVing throughout the summer, we were going 52 or 55 of 72 days in the summer.

Geez, once we are done recording this, uh, a little later today, we'll be taken off for a weekend, maybe 20 minutes from the house, but we've got like six other families joining us. Um, we're all gonna be camping for a weekend. Just living the fall and enjoy the weather. Well, that's 

Zach Busekrus: awesome, man. Well, as much as we love talking about RVs and camping, you know, that isn't like the core.

No. Let's, let's transition to the core. We should transition to the core, and actually we have a special guest to introduce who's gonna become much more than a guest, but is actually going to help take over the hosting of this, of this wonderful series, this wonderful segment with, with Mickey. And that [00:02:00] is none other than Shane.

Welcome, Shane Keel to Fanatical Fridays. Hello. 

Shane Kehl: I already feel unqualified. I know nothing about RVing. I have no idea what Harvest Host is. I thought that was gonna be a bread company. So , I'm super, super excited for the learning that's about to happen. I think it'll be, Mickey Talks 99% of the time and I'll say hi at the beginning.

That'll be an episode. 

Mickey Baines: Oh, no, we, you're gonna get, talk more than that. We're gonna put you on the spot early on. I'm just gonna tell you, give you a heads up. It's coming. Um, just count, count on to have you start chiming in. 

Zach Busekrus: And Shane, Shane works a lot or has historically worked a lot behind the scenes on our content production, our programming, working with, uh, team members to ensure that we're coming up with new shows, new series, et cetera.

And now he's taken. A stab at kind of coming out, um, you know, onto, onto a real pod, and he'll be co-hosting this segment, as I mentioned before, from, from here on out with Mickey. Um, Mickey, I know that you had some, you wanted to kind of quickly put [00:03:00] Shane on the spot and just say, ask him questions about things he wants to talk about or cover over the next several episodes.

And then I think you had some ideas as well. 

Mickey Baines: Yeah, so. So, Shane, we're gonna put you on the spot. Uh, we're gonna let you kind of pick our topics, um, that we'll dive into over the next few weeks. What's on your list? What's on your mind, Shane? Yeah, 

Shane Kehl: I think a two, two big ones just from a tactical standpoint are chatbots and texting.

I think those are both things, just from what I think we're hearing from people that. Seems to be a little not confusing in that they, they know what they are, but how to best make them work for their institution, their size. Um, there's kind of a lot of factors at play and, and chatbots are obviously super flexible.

Texting is, you know, becoming more flexible in the ways that you can use them. So chatting through what those could potentially look like for different types of institutions, I think would be super helpful. Um, I love themes whenever there's a chance to tie in a theme, so I feel. Thinking about like prime pumpkin spice latte [00:04:00] season, What is your school's pumpkin spice latte?

It's what is something that you can kind of pull on once a year only, but it's, it's a, you know, a winner every time, but it's not something you can have year round because then it loses its value. So what's, what's your school's pumpkin spice latte? 

Mickey Baines: So the one time, meaning the six months of the year that we can get our pumpkins back.

Yeah. 

Shane Kehl: It's not a big deal for six months a year come Christmas, if you're not getting the, uh, What's the peppermint mocha, pepper Mocha, pepper mocha. At Starbucks. December one, pumpkin spice latte goes out the window. You're under your peppermint mocha. I 

Zach Busekrus: get the 

Mickey Baines: theme. What are your 

Zach Busekrus: hits? Mm, I like that. Do you think about psl like that, that strategy chain being like, something that would happen within like a recruitment season?

Like, Hey, every year for our October events, we, we do like a Halloween spooky random open house theme Or like, Like what, how, how do you see that? Like fleshed out? Respect to kind of a, a recruitment campaign? Yeah. I, I think it's, it 

Shane Kehl: should be ideally something that's maybe [00:05:00] a little more unconventional. Not that pumpkins, spice latte is unconventional, but it is, it's new, it's unique.

Ideally it feels right for the time of year, but it's not something like, Oh, our fall open house. Is our pumpkin spice latte because it works really well and gets us lots of students. It's like, well, yeah, but you've always done that. You'll always probably do that. And pretty much 

Mickey Baines: everybody does that. So here, here's one.

And again, this is not gonna be unique. Um, it's not something every school does. So some schools will have, uh, a, an event for high school counselors on their campus once. It's like an open house just for them so that they can see and experience the campus, what this prospective student sees. They can hear more about the changes in programs and get to see and really understand what makes that institution special and different from others.

And so they, you know, we're gonna whine and dine you. You're gonna come in, you're gonna have some lunch, we're gonna give you some swag, we're gonna let you meet the president, the vp, and all this kind of stuff. Just like you [00:06:00] were a very special perspective student. Uh, and they might have something. And from that, you know, they, I, I know some schools that do it and that have done it not forever, but for four or five years, and they have steadily seen numbers of students coming from those schools that attend every year increase.

We've also heard comments from folks from our clients that have, when they've brought some folks on saying, This is the first time I've been on this campus in 10 years. Wow, what a difference. Mm-hmm. , all these buildings, I didn't think it looked like this. I didn't think I would feel like this on the campus.

It changed their perception and that change. Their likelihood of ascending students their way. Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah. Your pump spice. Yeah. Next episode.

Zach Busekrus: I, I like, I like the framing though. A lot of like, Yeah. What is something, Cuz I feel like there higher ed is so cyclical and we tend to just kinda like do the same things over and over and and over and you know, it's one thing to be. Yeah, what is the theme of this particular open house? It's another thing to think about what is something that [00:07:00] we could do and almost like develop a re reputation for like once a year.

This kind of thing happens during, you know, recruitment season and, and then it goes away, and um, and then you gotta wait again until you know, the following year to see 

Mickey Baines: it. There are those moments, but there are other moments in the year. So you have Black Friday, but you also have Cyber Monday and some of those moments, so just like pumpkin spice, but then you have the peppermint mocha, so there are seasonal moments you might have.

Mm-hmm. . There might be one that peaks pepper mocha doesn't sound like pumpkin spice. Right. Um, so Cyber Monday, maybe it does better than Black Friday now I don't think it does yet. At some point it will, but you know, you still got your marque moment, but you have other key moments throughout your enrollment cycle.

So you've got an open house, you're gonna have, you know, that might be, That's not a unicorn, obviously, but it is a marque event. Each campus has one. What are the other marque events that may be not that big, but are also very crucial to your enrollment process, to that recruitment [00:08:00] process? What are. And let's talk about different ideas for those.

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Circling back to your other topic, Shane Dew on chatbots I. One of the things that would be super cool for you guys to do [00:09:00] and you know, maybe selfishly I could like, join for this episode, um, or something like that. Oh, here we go. Here we go. You can't let already wants back in. You can't let go. Can't let go.

No, but no. Or, or I'll just, I'll just watch. But almost doing like. You know, I, we might have to be a little careful here, but I'm thinking like a throwdown of like helping folks like, almost like rating the different chat bots that are on the market and talking about like, Hey, which ones are good? Which ones, you know, which ones are good for you if you're, you find yourself in this context versus, Better for you if you find yourself in a different context.

Cause one of the, the biggest things actually, you know, from a, just a search volume standpoint, uh, on Chatter and refi's, uh, review site, we get a lot of people looking specifically for chatbots. And like, we rank, I think in roll offi ranks like number one for higher ed chatbots or reviews on higher ed chatbots or something like that.

And so there is a lot of like search volume around trying to figure this out. So I think it, it would be a super. Episode to maybe go and it would require probably a little bit of like, prep ahead of [00:10:00] time, but talking to folks, customers of each of these, these chat bots and almost kind of like unveiling like a, you know, from fanatical Friday's opinion,

These are, these are the best chat bots for you if you work in these contexts. 

Mickey Baines: And we can do that. And I think we can probably do that in, in, in other use cases as well, I think, um, SMS for example. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, so one of the things that, you know, I've done, uh, at my company, uh, and I can't say. Our team, uh, we've done that with sms, that feature set comparison, um, you know, how do they differ, Uh, and we can look at that and then, then, so we can do that chat bots, we can do that sms.

Um, and the other thing I would throw in there, To an extent for sms, but I think people understand that a little better. Uh, but with chatbots, what are the components to actually turning this on and making it actually work? Yeah. Mm-hmm. work for you and provide value because there are components to setting this up and getting it done right.

Some of those feature sets will be a part of the chatbots you're looking at. Some of them won't. We've got [00:11:00] clients, for example, who have chat bots on the site, but none of that data of the chat that's actually occurring is in the crm. We don't know what students who, which ones of them are actually engaging.

Yeah. Um, someone on the back end might see it, but they're not bringing in the crm. Well, you know, there are campaigns and communication that you can build on that. Mm-hmm. , uh, and, and communicate with folks. Automate other communications with them based on that. So let's talk a little bit about that components and what, what does it actually take to effectively get one turned on and have it really work for you?

Um, because we've done this with several clients and their level of understanding and knowledge, when they start the process, Has been widely different. Mm-hmm. and, and, and just like you're seeing Zach in terms of people, the search volume is there, the knowledge base of how this works and how it can work for you is, is also very wide.

Yeah. And let's, let's try to narrow that gap a little bit. 

Shane Kehl: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, Zach, we've even had numerous conversations with people that. Every time they hear chatbot, they just think, Well, we don't have somebody that can sit there 24 7. We don't have a call center. We don't have, And it's like, that's not the extent of [00:12:00] chatbots and like, 

Mickey Baines: what's the difference between live chat?

Yeah. 

Shane Kehl: Yeah. And automation. And some of the big sticky points are like the handoff and when does it go from automation to, you know, live chat And those are things Yeah. You, it's, it's, 

Mickey Baines: it's crazy. So I think those are some great topics. Those are, right there, um, to get us started going into the fall as we get ready to move into the winter, really.

Um, yeah, I think those are awesome. Now, 

Shane Kehl: let's flip this on a tight, a tiny bit. I'll put you on 

Mickey Baines: the spot. I've got a little bit of a content I gonna throw out today. I'm not gonna schedule this for later. I wanna do it now. We've got time. Let's do this. Let's talk about bullets versus cannonball. Shane, I gave you a heads up.

I wanted to talk about this. I didn't tell you what I wanted talk about other than bullets and canon balls. And this is a concept I'm stealing from Jim Collins from his book, b E 2.0 Beyond Entrepreneurship. That's a book that he wrote, um, with one of his mentors. In the, I think in the nineties, like it's long ago.

And last [00:13:00] year or year somewhere 21 or 22, he rewrote that or came out the new addition of that. And while keeping the original content added in sections of Jim's view from 2020. Um, so he can really look at how that's changed. Uh, and if you don't know Jim Collins, you don't, then you, you maybe have heard the book Good To Great.

That's was, I think the one that really propelled, uh, him for, although he is got books all around that cycle of, of from Good Grades got built to last was Act, was actually written before Good to Great. And that's really taking those great companies and making them built to last. Um, but aside from that, let's talk about, um, Bulletin in Cames is thinking.

How you expend your dollars and resources for new things. Um, you know, and if you are in the 18 hundreds and you're on this old wooden, uh, battleship and you've got enough gunpowder to like this one cannon ball, what happens if you expend that gunpowder on that one [00:14:00] cannonball and miss with another ship coming right at you?

You're done. You don't have any other options. . But what the successful companies are doing, they're not spitting their gunpowder on that cannon ball. They're taking a little bit of gun powder and they're firing a bullet so that they can see the trajectory, they can see if it's going left or if it's going right.

They can see how fast the other ship's coming towards them until they go, Bullet, bullet, bullet hit. We hit it. And once they've got that, then they take the rest of the gunpowder for that cannonball to go and fire and. It saves you from the big misses and what we see so often, um, are deans, directors, VPs, afraid to spend dollars on this new initiative because it's gonna take a lot of money, and that's a lot of risk.

And if they don't hit, they've lost it all. And so what we would recommend is how do you find the bullets versus the cannibal? How do you take this concept [00:15:00] that you're interested in, but not so sure about? And it doesn't have to be even brand new. Cuz Zach, this is where I wanna tie it into you because you look at what you're doing at DD and rfi, you know the, if you start talking about inbound marketing, it's been around forever in other industries and it's been around forever and higher it, but not everyone has always gotten it.

And, and it's how do we convince folks that this really is the right way to go? Yeah. And, and I'm, you know, I'm saying here it is the right way to go, but it's a risk because it's not cheap and you can't do it. So what are, for Inbound as an example for taking that approach, shifting the way you communicate, and you draw interest in what are the bullets?

Hmm. And that's real key. If you can find the bullets, and I'll say this to you as the person who's presenting at the schools, if you're presenting bullets versus cannon balls, you got better shots at. Because then you can also show them the proof and the putting and the winds with smaller winds, because they're bullets, but then they move from bullets to cannonballs.

Yeah. We've done [00:16:00] that so often. You know, from a technological standpoint, when we're looking with, with clients, there are, I can't tell you the number of institutions that come to us because other, in other companies don't wanna work with them because they only have a few thousand dollars. If it's not six figures, we don't touch it.

Or if it's not 50,000, we won't touch it. Other firms, and this is a reverse issue that you're having, but we'll take a $2,500 or $3,000 system update. And help that client get there because that client just paid me to market to them and showed them what we can do. We demonstrated our knowledge set what we can do, and I will tell you 100% of those clients have come back for other work.

Hmm. That's amazing. Yeah. And it's not $3,000 work. And now it's not six figures that those schools don't have that amount. But when you think about growing your client base, when you think about building that up, it's the, It is the same thing on the reverse side. If you don't, if you have a hundred thousand, you're [00:17:00] not likely gonna wanna say, Hey, I'm gonna take that instead of spinning on this thing That's.

Not let the world on fire, but has helped me meet my enrollment goal every year for the past 10 years. It's dwindling a little bit every year, but it still is the key to get me to my Roman goal. You don't wanna give that up. Yeah. Yeah. That's a big risk. But how can I take a smaller piece of the pie for a bullet to show the bullets ROI compared to the dwindling piece so that maybe not in one more year, but could be five more years.

That one bullet becomes two bullets, becomes five bullets, 10 bullets. The cannon. I love you, Mickey. You're 

Zach Busekrus: the best. . , 

Mickey Baines: But, and that, but that's what we need folks. Do we need you taking some of those dollars and resources to test and try? Yeah. Because if you don't, it's the same old, same old, and the same old, same old is a little smaller every year.

Yeah. And we, we can't handle smaller every year because at some point, if anything drastic can't happens, that little bit smaller becomes a lot smaller and you can't make that up. 

Zach Busekrus: I wanna hear what Shane [00:18:00] thinks about this, but one. This just reminds me of Mickey, is I put out this, I think it was a LinkedIn post or something a little while ago, but talking about like how, one of the questions we we get are folks who listen to enroll fi content.

Like they'll write in and they'll talk about, like, we talk a lot about content strategy, right? We talk a lot about seo and they'll be like, Oh, well, like, you know, where, where do I know? To start here, like how do I know where to start here and I can't, you know, effectively increase SEO across my program portfolio of a hundred programs.

Right. Within a year's period of time. Well, so how do I know like where to start and. One of the things, you know, that, that I kind of threw out is as just one idea of where, where, where someone could start is if you wanna sort of like validate a content idea and you're like, Hmm, this is something that like I think people might be interested in, or this is a new program we're offering, or this is a new spin on a program that we're offering.

Using a platform like TikTok or Instagram reels or something that has a viral component to it, it's easier to go [00:19:00] viral on these platforms than it is, for example, to publish a blog post, um, and testing out right. A couple of content ideas there. And if. They take off, or the one that does take off, that's probably like an interesting place for you to do a little bit more work in digging in and thinking, Hey, maybe this particular topic for this particular new program is actually where we should spend our time, the little time that we do have on content strategy and SEO work, because we know that the topic is.

Is at least interesting to our, our audience, which is on Instagram or ort. And so I, I love what I think that, that's like maybe a one example of what it could look like to fire with a bullet, right? And then follow that up with, all right, now, over the next 12 months, we're really gonna focus our continent strategy on, you know, topic A 

Mickey Baines: and, and, and the bullets don't always have to represent dollars.

They can represent time. Yeah, because we also, some institutions are able to do some of these things in house, but they don't have the time to do it. And if it's rewriting content using a different platform, how do we find the bullets rather than [00:20:00] canals? And that's, that's, that's how you begin to shift.

Yeah. I feel like on 

Shane Kehl: the, the email front, the digital ad front, it's, Yeah, it's all about that time. Maybe not even dollars of, I think some people maybe take the approach of, Well, I only have $500 for this ad, like, I'm just gonna throw it out. Rather than trying to be super intentional with the ad copy and maybe not leading with like, you know, the number of apply now, this is our deadline date, you see?

And it's like, Right, That's not enticing me to do anything. Spend more time trying to be creative. Come up with something that's that's compelling show, unique value prop, whatever. Add more personalization to emails, detail why this might be a good fit for this person's segment, more so that you can become more personalized.

Fire those bullets off. See which one kind of resonate with people the most. And if you have even decent software, you can track how all of those performed. Compare that to your averages that you've built up over years and then determine where you should put more time. Emphasis. Same thing going back to your SEO points.

Act of like you have all these program pages. It might not even be the best starting point in, Might not even be additional content, but go tweak keywords and copy [00:21:00] on a program page. Pick. Run it through, you know, Google scraper, determine what keywords you could potentially rank for, make some augmentations, and then kind of measure that over time if that works, move on to your next program and you're kind of working through a system there rather than, Oh, let me just try this new thing cuz it's a new thing.

Hopefully it works out for me. Um, and again, take that approach and I think it's hard for people to then argue with, like, I don't think that's worth our time. And it's like, have you seen the increases we've seen because of these changes? You know, makes it probably a little bit more easier of a fight too, for somebody that wants to do those types of things or wants to be a little more creative with their time.

You're almost justifying why you should shift your, your role slightly to focus on these, you know, newer, cooler, more exciting things that also have value, you know, from a marketing and admission 

Zach Busekrus: standpoint. Another thing that just came to mind, I think. There, there's this trap that we can fall into.

Mentally thinking that, yet being a little bit more creative is just, I can't afford that time. Right. Like you're, you're, [00:22:00] you're saying Shane, and in reality it's like, sometimes this can be as simple as like stepping away for like a second, being like, All right. I have three minutes. Is there anything I could do in three minutes to make this slightly more engaging?

And simply asking that question right, will at least yield a different result. Cuz you'll probably go and you'll change like one or two things, right? Like, and. You know, best case scenario, it performs better. Worst case scenario, you spent three additional minutes working on something and now you know that, you know what, Hey, maybe, maybe this approach, you know, isn't that great?

That could be the decision, like as simple as like whether or not you include an emoji in a subject line or whether or not you. You know, in, instead of opening with a, Hey, Shane, you just drop the personalization to begin with at the, at the, you know, offset. And then you include Shane's name, like halfway down the email.

Mm-hmm. , right? So as he's quickly skimming, he sees his name, and then he's drawn into, Okay, what, what's going on in the copy here? And those are the, those are, I think, are the [00:23:00] really, really, like, you know, small, potentially wonderfully impactful things that can happen when you spend literally two or three additional minutes thinking about it.

Yeah. 

Shane Kehl: Mickey, I'm curious what you, you think about, um, you know, firing all these bullets, When do you know, Right, You get your hit, Well, what's the hit? How do you know it's a hit? Is, is one more lead? Is 51 versus 50, uh, a hit? Or is that. Some dumb luck. Um, and how do you know when, when you get that can? 

Mickey Baines: Well, right, so, um, we wanna know if it's dumb luck, but I think, you know, it depends on the area where we're, where we're finding, when we talking about marketing, where you're talking about efficiency, is it changes in, in role and putting more time into, into something.

But, um, I think the key is saying, Okay, what is a strike? When we land it, what does that mean? And if it's, I need to generate more leads because I just keep working with this same company to buy leads every year and they're fewer or, or I'm converting less. So if it's fewer leads, I need more. Maybe I've got the same number of leads, but the converting less.

So now I need to think [00:24:00] about conversion. And so what does that ultimate goal we're solving for? What has that bullet meant to do? What does it mean to land? And once we know conversion, or once we. Uh, just in quantity. I'm trying to increase quantity. If that's what it is, then, okay, let's look at what I'm spending, What is that ROI value of what I get from this purchase versus this other avenue?

And it's not necessarily to say it has to outperform by x percent, is how does it even compare? Um, because sometimes if it's your first shot versus your 10th shot, you should get, be much closer after, you know, nine other shots than you're in your first one. And so it's, it's, it's not saying it has to perform as well, but if it forms, you know, you throw a 10th of your money and you get zero leads from it or, 5% or 2% leads that you need rather than 10 to 15% leads from it.

Then you gotta think about, you know, what is that? Was that the right bullet? And I, you know, I'm way off course I've gotta shift. And I think the key is that, you [00:25:00] know, you've got that measurement point, something to look at and then you know whether or not to shift what you did, tweak it, or you need to do something vastly different.

Shane Kehl: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good thing for people to keep in mind also. You know, on the extremes, maybe you've never done digital advertising. You start doing digital advertising. Correct. Your first ad is not gonna just blow up and you're gonna get tons distinct, right? Yeah. And you need, you also just need to start building some of that awareness with the same target audience, and they need to see that ad numerous times.

Variations of that ad. It's not like they're gonna see an ad for the very first time and they'll be like, Yep, I'm enrolling in 

Mickey Baines: this institution. I'm the type of person, If I'm doing that for the first time, I'm not paying somebody else. Yeah. I'm doing it myself. I, I want to experience, I wanna see, wanna know what type of work it takes to do mm-hmm.

um, so that I have a better idea of how to assess what I, if, when, and if I outsource it. And I'll look at that. If, if that's not you and you're outsourcing first, the key. understanding that you have [00:26:00] aligned expectations because what you might have in your mind that you're gonna get from this might be very different from what the other person, whether that's the same number that you're gonna get in return mm-hmm.

or whether what a return is, if it's a higher conversion rate, or a larger quantity. Those are two different things, and a lot of times agencies might be thinking that you need more. Leads not more conversions. And if you don't go in with that agreement in place, what they're designing may not give you the outcome that you're expecting.

And you might say, Oh, that was a bad bullet. No, no, no. You just didn't have the same type of bullet you were talking about. Right. Uh, and that's really, I think, key. And that's where that measurement, and it's not just waiting till the end to do that measurement. What is it you are. Right. What is it you need to know and measure before you fire the bullet, so then you can really assess that?

Well, 

Zach Busekrus: it's been a, it's been a privilege, everybody and I, I'm leaving you in great hands and Mickey, we're just gonna have to find other excuses to, to get together now. I 

Mickey Baines: mean, my gosh, you only have 32 podcasts, so , Zach, good seat you to kick off the, this [00:27:00] season, Shane. Really looking forward to these next episodes.

As we dive into chatbots, we dive into s. And our pumpkin spice lattes. Can't wait. Yep. Until then, thanks everybody for listening.

Zach Busekrus: Hey, y’all, Zach from Enrollify here. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Fanatical Fridays with Mickey Baines. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leaving a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.

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