How To Market a University Episode 4: Developing Brand Strategy and Expression in Higher Education

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How To Market A Univeristy - Ep 5 - Terry Flannery - (Updated Sponsor version)

[00:00:00] Terry Flannery: I'm an American really. So I'm probably going to relate to things that others might answer differently. But a couple of examples that really stand out for me and who I am. One is Starbucks. Had such a brilliant strategy related to their brand. [00:00:15] 

[00:00:16] Zach Busekrus: Welcome to how to market a university, a special podcast series featuring vignettes of Dr.

[00:00:22] Zach Busekrus: Theresa Flannery's book. How to marketing university, Terry Flannery has spent her entire career in higher ed. She was the first marketing director and [00:00:30] chief marketing officer at the university of Maryland, the first vice president of communications at American university. And most recently the interim vice president for marketing and communication at Stony Brook university at a time of declining public.

[00:00:43] Zach Busekrus: A shrinking pipeline of traditional college [00:00:45] bound students at a steady rise in tuition and discount rates, higher education leaders have ever been under more pressure. How can they ensure steady or growing enrollments while cultivating greater philanthropic support, increasing research funding and diversifying.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Zach Busekrus: And how to market marketing university Terry argues that institutions can meet all of these goals by implementing strategic, integrated marketing in ways that are consistent with academic and culture and university values, enroll five, and Terry have joined forces to producing mollifies first [00:01:15] ever master course that mirrors the robust learnings and deep insights.

[00:01:18] Zach Busekrus: And to Terry's book over the next eight weeks, this special podcast series will give you a taste of what you can expect in the master course, but that's it just a taste to unpack [00:01:30] all of the language, the frameworks, the tools, and the tactics that CMOs or aspiring CMOs will need to learn to lead the world.

[00:01:37] Zach Busekrus: And higher education. We invite you to register for the master force on how to market a university at dot org forward [00:01:45] slash master course again, that's enroller fi.org forward slash master course. This master course features guests, experts like Seth O'Dell, Jenny petty, Jimmy hunt, Ethan Braden, Michael Stone, or Angela Pollock.

[00:01:58] Zach Busekrus: Bob Johnson and many more. [00:02:00] It's also filled with downloadable templates and worksheets to help you retain the course material and last, but certainly not least this course was made possible by the leading agencies in higher education marketing, who all came together to support this effort. We want to thank Simpson Scarborough, [00:02:15] mind, power duty agency, and ology for their incredible.

[00:02:19] Zach Busekrus: Partnership to learn more about how these firms have helped colleges and universities of all shapes and sizes realize their branding, marketing, enrollment, and advancement goals up and over to their [00:02:30] respective websites in the show notes below. All right, without further ado, welcome to the how to market a university podcast series.

[00:02:44] Zach Busekrus: [00:02:45] It's good to see any mess up. Well, we are rolling. I just messed up. And so I'm Terry likes to delight in my pain. 

[00:02:51] Terry Flannery: I never see him as 

[00:02:53] Zach Busekrus: a that's too kind. You don't see me enough then. But we w we are going to dive into a conversation about developing brand [00:03:00] strategy and expression in higher ed. And to kick us off, Terry, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about some of the world's.

[00:03:06] Zach Busekrus: Most iconic brands. And when you think about that phrase, right? World's most iconic brands who comes to mind [00:03:15] and what is it about what these brands do that help them stand out as leaders in, in their respective industries? Of course, you know, from 

[00:03:22] Terry Flannery: your perspective. Yeah. It's an intimidating question because the globe.

[00:03:29] Terry Flannery: Iconic brands [00:03:30] is a lot of things in a lot of different categories and I'm an American really. So I'm probably going to relate to things that others might answer differently. But a couple of examples that really stand out for me and who I am. One is Starbucks. Had such a brilliant [00:03:45] strategy related to their brand, which is the third year, third place, right?

[00:03:49] Terry Flannery: In addition to your home and your workplace, this is a place that you will always feel welcome. You always have the same consistent, warm, comforting, familiar experience, where you want [00:04:00] to stay and spend time. And they delivered on that. Shop that they opened the gazillion that they own right now.

[00:04:09] Terry Flannery: It's really interesting to think about how that's been totally shaken up by the pandemic because it's, you know, [00:04:15] they couldn't offer an in person experience for so long. They had to think about another way to offer their coffee products to do that. And suddenly. It might not be the third place.

[00:04:24] Terry Flannery: It could be the second place it's work. I'm not going to work anymore in the same way that we used to. [00:04:30] So I don't know what all of this experience means for them, but I always admired their ability to both form and deliver a truly meaningful experience. That's perfectly aligned with their customers.

[00:04:42] Terry Flannery: Great 

[00:04:43] Zach Busekrus: example, 

[00:04:43] Terry Flannery: great example. The [00:04:45] cars are easy because they're global brands and in a lot of ways. So I think about Volvo and safe luxury being really so perfectly aligned with their customers that seek their cars. They had a strategy to aim for no. [00:05:00] Fatal accidents as a result of a car accident in one of their cars by I think 20, 21.

[00:05:06] Terry Flannery: I'm not sure where they are in that, but that's a pretty big bet on safe luxury. Subaru's another one that in their [00:05:15] love. Yeah, they have this commitment to social responsibility because they know who their audiences are and they want to make the world a better place. And so they're living their brand by offering to create, you know, contribute [00:05:30] some of their profit from every car to one of the mission driven organizations that their customers aligned with.

[00:05:37] Terry Flannery: So those are three really good examples 

[00:05:40] Zach Busekrus: for me. I'd say what's good about those examples. They've th they're [00:05:45] longstanding brands, right? Like, and they've been affected by market forces in the way that so many of their competitors have. And yet. They've stood the test of time. And I think that a lot of that has been because all, all the ones you mentioned from my understanding [00:06:00] anyways, obsessively, listen to what their customers say almost to a fault.

[00:06:05] Zach Busekrus: And it's like the amount of time and money and energy that they're spending, thinking, and listening to what people are saying, and then not waiting. [00:06:15] Pivoting or adapting quickly I think has been a key indicator of or key ingredient rather of their 

[00:06:20] Terry Flannery: respective successes. Yeah. I'm watching a brand be created from the ground up right now.

[00:06:26] Terry Flannery: That my brother's developing. He's the senior vice president for one of [00:06:30] Marriott's brands edition hotels with an E and it's a luxury brand designed to attract. Address younger audiences. He'd worked for another brand Ritz and that was slanting older. And that group is aging as a segment. And so they were [00:06:45] losing Marriott was losing out to luxury clientele who are younger.

[00:06:49] Terry Flannery: And so he is in a partnership to develop. These hotels have got 14 hotels. That are completely designed differently from other hotels that are perfectly aware of what you [00:07:00] get can get in other experiences. You and I have talked about Airbnbs and other kind of share kinds of accommodations, but this is something that's so stunning in terms of luxury.

[00:07:11] Terry Flannery: He's partnered up with Ian Schrager. Who's the [00:07:15] famous designer of studio 54. And together they've created these. Places and experiences that speaks so well to their customers. And just because we need to go check out how my brother's doing, I'm going to go see his hotel. That's opening in Madrid very [00:07:30] soon, but really fun to watch it created from the ground up by listening to their 

[00:07:33] Zach Busekrus: customers.

[00:07:33] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Yeah. So such a great example. And you know, I think that there's actually, I'm sure that I'm not the first person saying this. I'm sure that I probably read this in your book or somewhere else, but there, there are a [00:07:45] fair. The amount of there's a lot of symmetry between what we offer and higher education in terms of experiences and what the hospitality industry offers in terms of experiences.

[00:07:55] Zach Busekrus: So I liked that example too, because I actually do think that. There are notes to [00:08:00] be taken from ha from how the hospitality industry has evolved and how we might evolve the student experience in higher 

[00:08:06] Terry Flannery: ed. Yeah. Tom Hayes says we're a services industry and we're in the business of entertainment and education and hospitality and food service.

[00:08:14] Terry Flannery: [00:08:15] And so 

[00:08:15] Zach Busekrus: who wouldn't want to come work here? Right? We've got it all. We just can't quite pay you as much. But Hey, maybe that's changing. So in, in our last episode, Terry, we talked about the importance of market [00:08:30] researchers as this precursor to brand strategy. But once an institution knows who it is and understands what its unique value offer is, and really understands kind of who their unique value is for.

[00:08:43] Zach Busekrus: How do they begin to kind of [00:08:45] communicate all of this? In, in, you know, in, in a way that makes sense, like, what is the first step after the market research has been solidified folks know who they are, what they stand for, what they're doing, what comes next. And then what comes 

[00:08:59] Terry Flannery: [00:09:00] after that? I think that, you know, To take the insight from data to help you answer the question of what should I do next, right.

[00:09:08] Terry Flannery: Priorities come out of that. So whatever it is that you've done in the way of insights from research, it's going to help [00:09:15] you understand where do you have the most ground to cover which audiences really don't understand who you are well that you need to engage with more. Who's perceptions are off at university of [00:09:30] Maryland.

[00:09:30] Terry Flannery: We had many audiences in the state in the early two thousands that didn't understand what was different about our research university from other types of educational institutions, and even have legislators who were responsible for a [00:09:45] big chunk of the university's funding. But couldn't make a distinction between the mission of the state's flagship university and a community college, because they're all educating.

[00:09:55] Terry Flannery: Students who will become productive graduates and tax paying citizens. That's what [00:10:00] legislators thought that all of our jobs were any appreciation. For that research and scholarship mission and what it meant to the state economically or in terms of contributions for the benefit of citizens, [00:10:15] not just in the state, but in the world.

[00:10:17] Terry Flannery: And so out of that insight comes one a sense that if you speak about. Research than most people here at the expense of teaching. And maybe if you talk about [00:10:30] discovery, then you're going to have a whole new, inspiring way to talk about the research mission. And two, you have to demonstrate that impact regularly in terms of your communication efforts, to get people to start to differentiate.

[00:10:41] Terry Flannery: And it worked, it absolutely worked people's understanding in [00:10:45] Maryland, including the funding sources. Much clearer differentiation between the mission of a research university and other types. I 

[00:10:53] Zach Busekrus: love that example. And I think it just speaks to like the power of like a word, right? Like, like not to boil [00:11:00] it down to this, but you thought critically about, all right, well, what if we said discovery instead of research and then all of a sudden it's like a night and day difference in terms of the perception, which is one of the reasons I love branding so much, is it's so fun?

[00:11:13] Zach Busekrus: Get the message across in a way [00:11:15] that makes sense to folks in a way that's creative and also really strategic. And in quippy, it's almost like, ah, you know, I got you, you know, like we've always been this, but you didn't really have an affinity for this word or this word had these negative connotations.

[00:11:29] Zach Busekrus: But [00:11:30] if we use discovery. Right. 

[00:11:32] Terry Flannery: It's a game changer. It is the thing that unlocks the secret to some change in perception. I love that Dan mote, who was the president at the university of Maryland, when he arrived said that I told him he couldn't say research university. And he thought that was [00:11:45] ridiculous and hilarious.

[00:11:46] Terry Flannery: Then I showed him the residual research results. And I said, if we talk about it this way, you're going to get more people to come along with you. So let's think about 

[00:11:53] Zach Busekrus: doing that. Brilliant. Well, another reason why market research is important, I guess, Terry talked to us about [00:12:00] the rubric for the brand platform.

[00:12:02] Zach Busekrus: So you unpack this in great detail in both your book and also in our master course, but talk to us a little bit about what it is and how schools should use 

[00:12:11] Terry Flannery: it here. Yeah. I think what you're looking for is some kind of [00:12:15] short summary document that represents your playbook for your brand strategy.

[00:12:19] Terry Flannery: It's a simple summary of all the key elements. And so it's a reminder to everybody. Constantly, it's a form of discipline really to say, this is what we chose [00:12:30] as a strategy. And here are the elements that we all need to use to stick with the playbook. So it's got your mission and values. It clearly will have your differentiated value proposition in there are going to be some examples that represent proof that you deliver on that[00:12:45] value proposition that there's evidence that you can claim it authentic.

[00:12:49] Terry Flannery: And then a lot of times it'll have the character or the personality of the institution, because you wouldn't want people who are going to express the brand, whether it's an agency [00:13:00] or your internal team or folks across the campus to express something, for example, in a really formal way. If your community is a more informal one or in a really modern way, if tradition and ritual are really important.

[00:13:14] Terry Flannery: So there's [00:13:15] different elements of personality that go into that equation at Maryland. We hadn't gotten to this point of developing a rubric, but if I were writing it now, I would say that our institutions, personality and character had a lot to do with fierce [00:13:30] determination and being constantly underestimated and always overpricing.

[00:13:35] Terry Flannery: And taking ourselves seriously, but not too seriously and being proud, but not arrogant. Those are all elements of personality that you want to convey to [00:13:45] anyone else that's going to say, this is how we're going to represent ourselves to hear that tone when they're thinking about expression. Yeah. 

[00:13:52] Zach Busekrus: Yeah.

[00:13:53] Zach Busekrus: I'm, I'd love your thoughts on how accessible this should be within the context of an institution. [00:14:00] I had imagined, you know, marketing teams put so much time and effort into building these things and designing them perfectly, right. Making it make sense to them. But then talk to us a little bit about the work that's important to do, to ensure that this is accessible to the other stakeholders that are going to [00:14:15] be leveraging, right?

[00:14:16] Zach Busekrus: These words, these promises, these colors, you know, these logos, et cetera. 

[00:14:20] Terry Flannery: There's a tricky balance here because accessibility is really important to people who are going to need to use it to be doing. The best way. I [00:14:30] wouldn't want it to say the right way, but the best way, but it's also proprietary information, right?

[00:14:35] Terry Flannery: You don't want it so widely accessible that your competitor down the street or in the same region can get in and say, okay, this is what they're doing and what can we do to defeat that or address it or whatever. [00:14:45] So I would say it's a tool that belongs behind. A secure wall of some sort in a digital form, and that you're using it to train people at key points and you identify it as something that's proprietary that we don't share more widely, but that [00:15:00] you, because of your role are going to need to use it.

[00:15:02] Terry Flannery: So it goes into work that relates to training and equipping people who will use. The brand in their work whether they are new employees that are coming on board to the institution, [00:15:15] staff and faculty, or their vendors that you're working with. Those are people that you share this tool and say, clearly your own staff on the creative team would need to have this.

[00:15:28] Terry Flannery: The base from which we're operating. We're [00:15:30] not just about, what's the latest trend in design or the latest expression of a higher education value at the institution down the street. This is us. Yeah. 

[00:15:39] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Do you have a, an example or two of like brand platforms, these, this, [00:15:45] you know, playbook of sorts that you think does a particularly good job at striking that balance between being accessible, but also being consistent?

[00:15:56] Terry Flannery: I, you know, it's funny, I've seen a lot of the templates for these, with different [00:16:00] agencies. They're all different versions of the same thing. And that's fine, you know, whatever fits to convey kind of the final results. I am trying to think of examples of how people use [00:16:15] this at other institutions, besides the ones that I've been involved in.

[00:16:18] Terry Flannery: Probably my experience there is limited, so I'm not sure, but I think that they are, they would err on the side of keeping it mainly to their own team. Maybe at the expense of [00:16:30] sharing it with people who need to know it could go further than they've 

[00:16:33] Zach Busekrus: sent it as myself. Yeah. I've heard so many stories of folks, you know, that that are working in marketing that I'll share a screenshot and like a Facebook group or something like that of like, Faculty member or, you know, [00:16:45] somebody in admissions and missions, counselor going and designing something in Canva and using it as like the email masthead for this thing that went out and they're like, oh my gosh, she like, they've, it's almost like they've, you know, committed a Cardinal sin of sorts.

[00:16:58] Zach Busekrus: Right. And yet it's like, you [00:17:00] wonder. Oh, is that because it wasn't clear to them where to find these resources or how to access them or was it, you know, just some rope player. And do you think it's really important? You know, the brands that are doing this [00:17:15] well, the organizations that are the institutions that are doing this particularly well, I think have somehow figured out that, that magic relationship between again, control, but also accessibility.

[00:17:24] Zach Busekrus: And I imagine this really hard to strike that balance. Yeah. 

[00:17:27] Terry Flannery: I think, you know, beyond the template for the brand platform [00:17:30] itself, the tools that help say, and this is how you use it or the things that need to be extended more carefully and why you would want to do that. And if you catch people while that onboarding and.

[00:17:41] Terry Flannery: Provide tools at just the right time, like [00:17:45] faculty and men, you know? Sure. If you're going to have some that are be rogue and kind of do their own thing, cause they think they can do it better. And they don't realize that what we do is actually professional expertise, but Hey, I digress. A lot of times people will want to do the right thing if you just give [00:18:00] them a tool to use.

[00:18:00] Terry Flannery: So if you come up with two or three. Slide deck templates in whatever form your institution uses, whether it's PowerPoint or whatever, you can address a whole set of things. You can address accessibility issues so that their content is accessible to everyone that they use it with. [00:18:15] You can provide forms of that slide deck that are great for conference presentations.

[00:18:19] Terry Flannery: When they're influencing all the other colleagues in their field and your mate, you're helping them use a tool. That's putting the university's name in on. You and [00:18:30] help helping that register in terms of the institutions reputation, that kind of thing. So a lot of times it's just about making sure that you're giving people tools in the form.

[00:18:39] Terry Flannery: They need them to do the right thing. Yeah. 

[00:18:41] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the [00:18:45] work involved in the actual development of brand strategy and its expression in higher ed. So. Who are the folks that should be involved, right? Once the market research is done right? Once we have a basic sort of like brand platform in place, [00:19:00] how do we actually.

[00:19:02] Zach Busekrus: Do the brand strategy development, who are the stakeholders that are involved in that and what are some, you know, maybe do's and don'ts, that you'd recommend along 

[00:19:10] Terry Flannery: the way. So I think if you think about people with different expertise or [00:19:15] stakes in this process, then you think about Claire roles. So the CMO and the internal team, or the agency are really leading the development of the process the whole way, not just the research piece, but the development of the strategy and the creative expression.

[00:19:29] Terry Flannery: [00:19:30] And then. Because they are the professionals they've got to guide the work every step of the. And have the most professional expertise. There are group of people who are going to be the deciders for lack of a better word, the cabinet level. Maybe [00:19:45] sometimes the academic council university council they'll include deans in that are the people who will receive recommendations about what should be done based on people who've been more involved and they decide yay or nay.

[00:19:57] Terry Flannery: And that's how it should be important note. [00:20:00] It's not the board, in my opinion board members are governing authority and brand work is primarily a set of management decisions. So boards should be kept involved, but they're not the deciders. The decision should be made. By the institutions, leaders who are [00:20:15] accountable for its execution taskforce we've talked about before.

[00:20:19] Terry Flannery: And another episode of this podcast, a marketing task force that includes the brand's power users are going to be your most informed and involved aside from your own team or the agency. And they bring [00:20:30] in the interests and kind of the views of key stakeholder audiences at the institution. So if they partner with.

[00:20:36] Terry Flannery: By guiding and steering the most significant aspects of this work and brand development they will have by. And they will be your [00:20:45] strongest defenders ambassadors, kind of leaders of the use of this over time. And they are the people who kind of would look at the research results and help to make meaning of what is it that we should be doing there.

[00:20:57] Terry Flannery: The people there all agree. To [00:21:00] recommend the final brand platform document. They will have gone through all the language in that and wrestled with the hard questions and you'll have answers to them because that group help wrestled. They recommend the work to the cabinet who are the decision makers and then there's [00:21:15] everybody else.

[00:21:15] Terry Flannery: Right. And that's a lot of everybody else. I know. So everyone else on campus should get to follow the. I, you know, I say sometimes that if you think about how closely our stakeholder audiences hold their institutions to their identity, it's on their [00:21:30] resume. It's on their LinkedIn site, it's on their cars, it's on their babies, on their laptops.

[00:21:35] Terry Flannery: You know, they really hold our institutions close and it's an important part of their own personal identity. So they care about this deeply and we need to respect that. So [00:21:45] giving people. To participate at appropriate points in a reasonable way. Not everybody can decide or have, this is not a process you vote about cause they won't have participated in the same level of detail as the task force.

[00:21:59] Terry Flannery: If [00:22:00] they get a chance to participate in a survey when you're doing the research, if they get to come to a town hall where the findings are being presented and you ask, how do you make meaning of this question? What would you do with these results? They're following along in the process and [00:22:15] they get to provide input.

[00:22:16] Terry Flannery: You're not asking them to Nope. But you're asking them, what would you think about, or how would you use this information in ways that get people to follow along and then when you we'll talk about it, but when you get to the conversation about what the brand expression, and [00:22:30] there's another opportunity there to have some really good participatory conversation.

[00:22:34] Terry Flannery: Yeah. 

[00:22:35] Zach Busekrus: One quick follow-up question there is, do you have an example or a story of a task force or you're really sort of just the development of the brand [00:22:45] strategy that. You know, the, these folks nailed it. They nailed it in terms of obviously, you know, you're limited by the institutions that you've worked at, that the brand strategies that you've led, but even anecdotally like, oh my gosh, the way that these people were [00:23:00] able to communicate to the board and rally the troops across campus and talk to a number of stakeholders and he just quick stories that come to mind have folks.

[00:23:09] Zach Busekrus: I've been able to 

[00:23:09] Terry Flannery: tackle this well. Yeah, I think you see it in the excitement and the responsive communities when [00:23:15] something is introduced or launched. And I think two presidents I talked to for the book had stories just like that. Zack Carl at Indiana tech and Troy him at north central university are two presidents who [00:23:30] had so, Involve the community, every step, that way at the grassroots level, that there was no surprise or to Dom moment when they got done, what was developed was really exciting and inspiring to people, 

[00:23:40] Zach Busekrus: which is great.

[00:23:41] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. Yeah. Great examples. So one of the [00:23:45] things that can happen throughout sort of the development of brand strategy, And I think that probably happens more often than not in the brand expression stage or phase, but schools can fall prey to thinking like [00:24:00] they're done, right? Like we've finished the rebranding, the fonts and logos have been picked.

[00:24:05] Zach Busekrus: Right? Yeah. The new website is launched. Right. You know, but I think you're a big advocate of this and I would agree that today, you know, brand needs to be treated as if it's this living, breathing [00:24:15] organism, because. If it is a reflection of who you are, right. Who you are is constantly evolving, right?

[00:24:21] Zach Busekrus: Depending on where we're at in history, right? Depending on leadership, depending on the student body that you're currently attracting the programs and majors that you're offering, et cetera. [00:24:30] So do you have examples of brands within higher education that you believe really understand their role in the marketplace and are really sort of structured to be able to evolve dynamically as the marketplace changes and as consumer preferences?

[00:24:44] Terry Flannery: You [00:24:45] know, I don't have a great specific example on this one. Zack because I think it means being close enough to see internally what you're doing, you should the outcomes. But I think. You know, it goes back to that wisdom from Tom, Hey Hayes about everything changes. [00:25:00] It's always been true that institutions change, even though we think they change more slowly than we'd like.

[00:25:05] Terry Flannery: And certainly our student populations change in ways that a brand has never done. But if a CMO isn't the leader who's embracing the notion that we [00:25:15] constantly have to be tracking not only who are students. Who are what experience our alumni have had, what forces in the world are changing perceptions of our institution or the work more broadly what our competitors are doing.

[00:25:29] Terry Flannery: I mean, every day [00:25:30] our competitors are making moves that are threats to us. And if we just, every 10 years look at that before we do our strategic plan, we're going to miss an awful lot. And so I do think CMOs are in a position to understand that better than most, and to be able to constantly build that into their [00:25:45] work.

[00:25:46] Zach Busekrus: My last question for you today, Terry is what, if anything is missing from the conversation around brand strategy and expression in higher ed how can we kind of close these gaps in understanding and [00:26:00] knowledge and or content? 

[00:26:03] Terry Flannery: One of the things that we talked about in our earlier podcast in this series is the role of marketers beyond promotion.

[00:26:11] Terry Flannery: And that's still a pretty big gap in most places. So [00:26:15] thinking about how to take the strategy that's been developed and push it into decisions about pricing product in place, for example that that's. Unexperienced truly does become a reflection of [00:26:30] everything about the institution that's in the minds of our customers.

[00:26:34] Terry Flannery: It will become the sum total of their experience if we've gone well beyond the promotional piece. So I think that's an area where we really have to push. I guess the other [00:26:45] thing that's kind of, something to be thinking about is the importance of trusted expertise. This is not easy work. This is tough stuff.

[00:26:53] Terry Flannery: It's getting to the root of very challenging decisions. Require leaders [00:27:00] and members of the community, honestly, to make tough decisions if you're doing it well. Right. And so you have to have people who've been through this process before who bring their expertise to bear on the particular part of the process that you're in.

[00:27:13] Terry Flannery: And that has to be [00:27:15] valued because so many of us in our daily lives are exposed to so much marketing. Everybody thinks they can do what we do and you know, whether the. Being a creative person. And, you know, you can go to Canva and make a website or [00:27:30] you know, some other aspect of this. No, actually the expertise is really important and it's worth paying for, and it's very valuable.

[00:27:37] Zach Busekrus: Yeah. So I, that, well folks who are tuning in, if you haven't done so already be sure to head on over to enroll [00:27:45] five.org forward slash in the master course, and you can read it. And enroll in the how to market a university master course, featuring Terry Flannery. And for those of you who haven't done so already, if you're just finding this episode [00:28:00] sort of organically, this episode is episode four of a larger series.

[00:28:04] Zach Busekrus: So if you scroll down to your show notes, there'll be links to episodes. One, two, and three. If you want to catch up, we are recording this series in a couple of settings here. So [00:28:15] if you are missing a little bit of context and you want to go back. Learn a little bit more about what brand how to structure our marketing team, or do you want to learn a little bit more about the importance that market research plays in brand strategy?

[00:28:27] Zach Busekrus: Be sure to check out previous episodes. [00:28:30] Terry, thanks so much again for your time and for joining us today.