-
Learn With Us
Learn With Us
Access podcasts, videos, articles, and more.
-
Subscribe With Us
Subscribe With Us
Discover the best new software, tools and services for enrollment marketing — and even your next gig
Podcasts The Higher Ed Geek Episode 177
Dr. Perry LaRoque on Creating Access for Learners with Disabilities
Listen Now
Full Transcript
BONUS Episode #177: Dr. Perry LaRoque on Creating Access for Learners with Disabilities
[00:00:00] So
[00:00:06] Dustin Ramsdell: this is an episode, uh, I think just for one reason or another we've been, uh, cooking for a little while, just finding a good time and, uh, wanting to make sure that we had all the time to prepare for this one. But, uh, really excited to have this conversation. It's just another area. You know, just over the years that we've been doing the show, certain things come up more often than others and.
[00:00:23] I'm just really glad to give a topic at hand today around supporting students with disabilities, giving that it's time, kind of going in depth, uh, with somebody who's a very strong, uh, advocate for that work. Uh, so we will get into our conversation starting out as we always do, uh, having our guests introduce themselves and give a brief overview of their professional background and how they get to be where
[00:00:41] Perry Laroque: they are today.
[00:00:43] Great. Thanks for having me, Dustin. Um, So my name is Dr. Perry La Rock. I am the founder and president of Mansfield Hall, which is a residential college support program for students with autism and other related disabilities. I'm also the author of Taking [00:01:00] Flight, the Guide to College for Diverse Learners and Non-Traditional Students.
[00:01:04] But I sort of took a long educational path to get to where I am today. I started off as a special education. Taught for a few years. Really enjoyed it, but found myself sort of stuck on the system. more focused on the, on how I might be contributing to the problem than solving the problem. And, and so I was motivated to go back and continue my studies.
[00:01:24] And so I earned my doctorate in special education from the University of Wisconsin, turning my doctorate. I, I spent about seven years in academia as a professor for a few different universities, university of Wisconsin Whitewater, SUNY Potsdam, and then ended. Working as the special education program director for the graduate program at Northern Vermont University.
[00:01:45] And it was through that time that I just started to sort of see where some of our efforts at the college level were falling short of, of these diverse learners. And oftentimes as my experience [00:02:00] as an advisor was that we were losing sight of these kids who really had a lot to offer and a really diverse per perspective to bring to college.
[00:02:09] Not because they weren't motivated and not because they weren't engaged and not because they couldn't manage the content. It was just all of the other skill set around them that was getting in their way of being a, a successful in college. And so, you know, led me to, um, co-found the College Steps program.
[00:02:25] We brought a Think College program, which is a, a program for students with intellectual disabilities campus. The College Steps program sort of expanded those services and now is across the East coast. , um, serving students with disabilities at community colleges, and then eventually to start Mansfield Hall, which is, you know, much more comprehensive.
[00:02:44] People describe us as like a super dorm, and so we have locations in Madison, Wisconsin, Burlington, Vermont, and Eugene, Oregon, where we work with the local colleges to help our students get the services that they need, and then we also help provide them the services on site all under one.
[00:02:59] Dustin Ramsdell: Just [00:03:00] on, on its face.
[00:03:00] And we can talk a little bit more about what Mansfield Hall does and everything as an organization, but like any student should be able to get a residential community that really invests, you know, very deeply in the experience and everything. Cause I think, you know, anymore just because of just kind of the scale and the ubiquity of, uh, resident experiences and school is just kind of, I don't know, maybe, maybe just kinda checking the box.
[00:03:20] They're just like, it's a place to live. You have some RAs, they're kind of just like monitoring and checking in and like, you know, they're, they're not really. Going in as in depth in that sort of immersive learning experience, that opportunity that exists there. So it's really cool what you've been able to accomplish there so far.
[00:03:35] So yeah, if you just wanna talk briefly about, you know, what Mansfield Hall does in a little bit more
[00:03:40] Perry Laroque: detail. Yeah. I kind of came to the book through my work at Mansfield Hall and so I'll, I'll say that a lot of the work that we were doing at Mansfield Hall was guided and inspired by my. Both in the high schools and, um, you know, public education and then also in the college [00:04:00] level.
[00:04:00] And that was just quite simply, what does it take to be successful in college? It's not rocket science, but I, I literally sat down before I'd started Mansfield Hall and I said, you know, what, what does a successful college student look like? And so I kind of boiled that down to what, what do, what do we want?
[00:04:17] What are the outcomes of college? And, and they sort of fell into four domains. And both in the book and then also at Mansfield Hall, we kind of call these our four core areas, and it's learning, living, giving, and engaging. And so the learning, obviously is the piece around students needing academic support and people to help them with their studies.
[00:04:36] The executive functioning piece, the advocacy piece with professors kind of understanding how to manage the system, how to get their homework done, how to manage your schedule. But then you have these other categories like, um, the living, like independent living skills and how important sleep hygiene and healthy eating and all of these pieces that support you in the classroom.
[00:04:58] Um, and then the engaging, [00:05:00] um, how, how someone. Gets involved on a college campus, the social skills they develop from being in clubs and in intramural sports and political action committees, whatever it is. Right. You know, getting involved on campus and, and having a social role. And then finally this giving piece of.
[00:05:17] You know, a successful college student volunteers and does internships and gets job related skills and gets different perspectives by volunteering at different organizations. And so my belief really was that we can't just focus on the learning. In fact, in many ways, I think the the biggest mistake colleges are making is that they are overemphasizing the importance of tutoring in the learning aspect and forgetting that the independent living skills and the social skills and the real life experiences are really.
[00:05:46] Um, you know, provide the framework for someone to be able to learn in college. And so, um, at Mansfield Hall we have, um, you know, staff members within each of those categories. We have speech and language pathologists, we have academic coaches, we have writing [00:06:00] specialists, we have academic directors. Um, we have, uh, what we call directors of student life, which are sort of like social workers that are helping to, you know, manage the overall system.
[00:06:09] And, um, and, and we have community outreach directors. Connect students to volunteering, which is a requirement, and get 'em involved in internships. And the, the, the goal is for us to become, uh, insignificant in the student's life. I mean, our goal is for a student to become independent so that we can hand them back to the college or hand them off to the college.
[00:06:30] So we've built them the skills that they need. We've, we've helped them, um, learn how to do college and. Get them to a point where they can start to utilize those resources on campus. And the book Taking flight is, is really was meant for those students, uh, and families that don't understand the system.
[00:06:50] You know, college systems, the bureaucratic system of College of Self is, is fairly complex and students are at a significant disadvantage. If they don't know how to use that system in their [00:07:00] favor and how to kind of work the system. So what are the hidden rules? What are the different pieces you have to understand about college?
[00:07:05] How do you, you know, manage a difficult situation with a professor? Like how do you build relationships with your professors? All of these things that someone who's maybe come from generations of college, um, students or, um, you know, families who've all gone to college might be kind of secondhand nature.
[00:07:22] if your professor tells you that there are no late assignments, like that's fine that that's their rule, but did you ask them if you could have an exception? You know, little things like that that I think, um, help to level that playing field for diverse learners. Um, and so, um, you know, we sort of operate and people find Mansfield Hall.
[00:07:42] Um, first, uh, generally, and then we work with the colleges in the area. So let's use Burlington, Vermont. It was our first program as an example. Um, students come to Mansfield Hall. We have, uh, residents in the middle of town. It looks like any college residence. It's got a cafeteria. Um, [00:08:00] and then we sort of help match the students desires and strengths, um, to the colleges in the area.
[00:08:06] So we have com, you know, community College of Vermont, uh, Champlain College and the University of Vermont. So we can kind of move students in between those different programs without being accepted yet, so they can kind of understand where their strengths are, um, where their challenges are, and we can find the right fit for.
[00:08:22] Uh, and then move them around in real time too. If, if the big university was too much or the community college was not enough. Well, what I really like
[00:08:29] Dustin Ramsdell: about that is like, it feels very personalized. Like, cause I think, you know, certainly some, some students may, uh, need more help in one area than another.
[00:08:38] And just thinking of kinda the archetypal residential experience from most students is kind of a, a one size fits all. And maybe. , you know, maybe they, there is a capacity to kind of give a student a more personalized experience, but just the idea that you have this whole team of people giving different areas of support to each student and everything.
[00:08:56] So you are just kind of taking best practices of what I [00:09:00] think any resident's life or student affairs professional like would hope to achieve. But just being able to kind of, you know, do it and show the great results that you're giving to these, uh, students that you're working with is, is really great.
[00:09:12] But you know, you've, you've, uh, name dropped your book, uh, a couple of times, so I wanna give that kind of, its due, uh, attention here as well. Cuz like you said, it's all kinda like interwoven and like the work you've done for, you know, several years and, um, you know, so you have the, the book and now also a podcast call taking flights.
[00:09:28] I'm just curious, just generally, like, obviously you've been really immersed in this work and are now kind of putting it out with these different kind of content mediums and everything. So just like talking about how these came to be and what the experience has been like putting this out into the.
[00:09:40] Perry Laroque: Let me back up and just comment on one thing that you said and, and yes, I've been trained very well to name drop the book, so I'm glad, I'm glad that came through The, um, people who are at a college, and I say this oftentimes is that, that people have the best intentions and I, you know, I've worked on campuses and, and certainly we all have the best intentions of meet, meeting the needs of our [00:10:00] students.
[00:10:00] And, and oftentimes it's the system, the in of itself that is, is can be discriminatory against students with disabilities. And um, and you're right, like we have this huge amount of resources where we can kind of wrap around these students and colleges actually have really good programs and really good services and really good centers.
[00:10:20] Um, and a lot of times I think you get a lot of colleges that are head scratching because, um, they're like, well, we have a great writing center. We have a great disability services, we have a great counseling center. They have all these wonderful services. And it's still not enough. And, and people can't figure that out, that, you know why?
[00:10:37] And I often say, well, the most difficult thing we do at Mansfield Hall, um, is wake students up. Right? And, um, and I I say that both, uh, in reality and, and metaphorically to a lot of, to, to a large extent, is that, Um, you know, you, you can bring the horse to water, right? But you have to, you know, you can't make 'em drink.
[00:10:56] I always say our students are thirsty. Um, they just don't know how to get to the water. [00:11:00] And so it's about how are we helping them find those services and use those services. And that's the key point. It's not necessarily that resident life coordinator needs to do all the work that we do, but they need to understand what the student needs and how to get them the support that they need.
[00:11:14] And so, Um, you know, what Mansfield Hall does, um, in, in a large way, is we help connect students to those services on campus that are really great services when they show up as a freshman and you expect them to go from having an i e P team with seven professionals on it, helping them guide their program and tell them what to do every day of their life to being a freshman in college where they're completely on their own and have to create their own team.
[00:11:38] It's just a pretty big ask for a student who's coming into their freshman year, so, mm-hmm. . I know colleges are, are struggling with it and, and I feel like the solution is there. Um, it's just sort of a change in paradigm. One of, one of the inequities of, of students with disabilities, um, at the college level is that they're, [00:12:00] they lose all of their support.
[00:12:02] Um, you know, idea individuals with Disabilities Education Act dictates and funds special education programs up to the age of, well, 20, 21, 22 if you need 'em that long, but you know, up to the graduate high school, and that is pays for speech and language. It pays for coaching, it pays for testing, it pays for all these things.
[00:12:21] When a student goes to college, that line of funding completely deteriorates. There's nothing there. There's very few scholarships out there. There's very few grants, there's very, there's very little for these students. So even just weekly coaching, um, for a student oftentimes comes out of a family's, you know, bank account and Mansfield Hall, because we're offering this huge amount of services, um, to our students, ends up being, uh, expensive and families don't necessarily have a.
[00:12:47] Or anywhere to go to help pay for that. And we certainly don't have anywhere to go to, you know, offset the costs on our end because there's really no lines of funding for these kinds of kids out there. And, you know, and that's been something as a public school teacher and [00:13:00] came from a, a education family.
[00:13:01] My dad was a school psychologist and a camp director. My mom was a preschool teacher, you know, is concerning for me because you, you see that perpetuating those inequities. And so part the second half of what I've been doing with my life now is trying to figure out. That we can start to open these doors for these students without them having to afford a program like Mansfield Hall or any of the other programs across the country.
[00:13:24] Even the programs on campuses that still charge more on top of the tuition is out of reach for many families. For me, it was, you know, why don't I just take everything that we're doing at Mansfield Hall and all of my observations as a professor and an advisor and put it into a book and, um, you know, originally I think the running title was the Insider's Guide to College.
[00:13:44] It, it's not about like, how do you study and how do you take notes. It's about what's the difference between an associate dean and assistant dean and, and, um, and that's the most boring part of all of it, but really understanding how the system works in order for someone to understand how they [00:14:00] can, they can get through it and get around it.
[00:14:02] Um, and, and also putting into context their own disability and how that fits into college or their own diverse learning needs and how that fits into the college at. And why colleges weren't built for that student. In fact, there's a chapter called, um, it wasn't Made for You. I mean, colleges weren't made for these kinds of kids.
[00:14:22] And so now you're coming to this college, you're doing it on your own. How do you do it? And so, um, the book is really meant to be a way of trying to. Um, give families and students the knowledge they need in order to survive and be successful in college. And hopefully the inspiration to do it. Um, you know, I tried to make it as not dry as possible, so the book I've been told is funny and, and keeps people engaged and, and sort of talks about the things students need to need to think about.
[00:14:49] You gotta bring that humanity
[00:14:51] Dustin Ramsdell: to it. Like this is just like, I think just continually acknowledging and realizing like college and, you know, choosing it. Going to it [00:15:00] and being, you know, being in college and everything. Like, it's all just very emotional. Like, it, it is just, you know, for so many people, like, you know, affirming life goals, it's, it's a, you know, uh, where a place where you find your identity and you're, you're making these bonds and being vulnerable about like what you don't know and you're learning and all the, all these sort of things.
[00:15:16] So I think, yeah, you kind of have to bring the, you know, the humor and the emotion and just the, the genuine nature to things. And, uh, it's great too cause I, I just always appreciate folks who kind of like, Show their work and almost like, don't like hog it. They can kinda just be like, Hey, like this is what's been working for me.
[00:15:32] Like, you know? Yeah. You know what, with what I've been doing and everything. And certainly like, it's not as if it's like everywhere needs to do it exactly like yours, you know, kind of model and everything. Like it can kind of remix it and mash it up and kind of, you know, uh, find something that works for, um, you know, their context and environment as like a, you know, a higher institution, but, I'm just as a quick follow up, uh, you know, as a, uh, fellow podcaster, I'm curious, like, what has that experience been like for you to kind of [00:16:00] like, which I think is great, kind of keep the conversation going under the banner of, uh, yeah.
[00:16:04] You know, the, the book title and everything, just like, cause it's not just for a lot of folks, like, it's another area of vulnerability of kinda like putting your literal voice out there and, um, having these conversations and everything. So, w. Yeah. What was that experience like, the longest? Well,
[00:16:17] Perry Laroque: it, it was fun.
[00:16:17] I, you know, and honestly, you know, I'm a busy person, . Um, and so the pandemic, uh, provided me with, you know, more time than I was comfortable with. And so, you know, the, that podcast came out of, uh, I should do something cuz I have more time on my hands now. Even though, um, in a lot of ways the life. Busier. I just had some more like at home time, like the rest of us, , like everybody else.
[00:16:43] And one of the things that in my career working with people with disabilities is that oftentimes it's their voice that is missing from the conversations. And I think, um, there's a saying in special education, nothing about us without us, and you know, meaning like, [00:17:00] we should really be involving the voices of people with disabilities in all of this.
[00:17:03] And. , you know, I just got curious. I, I was looking at podcasts saying, well, like what podcast just features the stories of people with disabilities and what they're up to. Not necessarily about like what is their disability, but like what did they do and how did they get through it and put together a, a, you know, a wishlist of people that I wanted to talk to.
[00:17:23] I ended up getting, being able to interview Temple Grandon for, you know, we talked for a couple hours, um, and you know, was, it was more about. How is disability a part of your life? And, and it was interesting because, and anybody who's listened to podcasts says, you know, the one theme that kind of comes through that is that these people don't view themselves.
[00:17:43] As, as having the disability in the way we do that, they view their disability as the interaction between the expectations of the world and their personal characteristics, and that if the world wasn't in their way, they would be just fine. You know, Sina [00:18:00] Baram, who I interviewed, who's this web developer who's, who's blind, was like, listen, I'm.
[00:18:05] Like, you know, I mean, it's the site world that's in my way. Like if, if there wasn't an expectation for me to be able to see, I would be able to do everything else everybody EL is able to do. And it's when the world is created in a way that I can't access that it becomes a problem. And you know, right down to Temple Grandon saying, listen, my autism was a strength.
[00:18:22] Being a woman was hard, you know, in my, in the cattle industry, or Drew Maxwell, who is a movie producer and he is done a bunch of movies and he is an artist and the executive director of the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design. You know, school largely failed me because they wanted me to do all the things I couldn't do and didn't let me focus on the things I was really good at.
[00:18:41] Mm-hmm. And so it wasn't that my dyslexia was necessarily the problem my dyslexia gave me. Makes me a amazing artist and it makes me a really unique person. It's just that when people require me to read and write, it gets in my way. You know, it sort of brought all that perspective and that's the perspective that our students sent me in field hall.
[00:18:58] Have oftentimes it's, it's like [00:19:00] these are really nice, motivated, you know, engaged, smart, they're perspectives on the world, they're fascinating and, and in a lot of ways just beautiful. And, and it's like they, we put them into this college system that's not created for that kind of person. and all they're doing is battling to be themselves.
[00:19:19] And, um, and, and so I think the podcast was sort of like, let me get these voices or these people out there who have taken their disability and done great things with it. And so that other people with disabilities and other practitioners can understand that oftentimes this def deficit perspective on disability is the problem, not necessarily, um, the person who has it.
[00:19:39] Right.
[00:19:39] Dustin Ramsdell: Well, yeah, and I think that's really powerful cuz also I think it in my mind connects a dot of like, you're kind of already seeing, just like broadly an acknowledgement of like how we allow learners to showcase their learning. Starting to get a little bit more fluid where you can have something, and I guess I don't wanna say like a spectrum necessarily, like there's just kind of like a whole sort of like, you know, uh, [00:20:00] Kind of diagram of options, I guess, for any, any instance.
[00:20:02] Cause it's like it's, it's anywhere from just like, okay, if you need to do a discussion board post, it's like you could write, you could record a voice memo, you could like, you know, do a video or you know, whatever it is. Like you just allow people, you know, that's gonna built in anymore into a lot of learning management systems where it's like, yeah, you don't need to just like write your response.
[00:20:17] You could do whatever you want. But then like on a ver much more larger scale, something like companies based education where it's just like, okay, like you can prove that you know your stuff, you are getting credit. For that, so that you're already kind of moving towards an area where it's like, okay, you're now caught up in terms of your like degree program to where you're actually at based on your prior knowledge.
[00:20:37] And we kind of set up a, you know, structure for you to showcase that and everything. So yeah, I think just like if we're, if we're doing more of that, Better serves, more diverse learners, kind of from all corners of the world and everything depending on, you know, yeah. If it's an adult learner coming, you know, to college after working, you know, their career for a while or.
[00:20:59] You know, uh, [00:21:00] yeah. Like a, a student who's coming in where, you know, they have a, some other different ability, status or something, you're allowing them to kind of showcase their knowledge. Um, and yeah, like you said, I, I think that's kind of like the through line here is like kind of getting out of their way because you Yeah, the, there's a lot of, uh, just sort of entrenched biases and certainly sometimes I'm sure just like things that people are unaware of because they've just kinda become so much of the, uh, kinda the paradigm and the status quo and everything, so, And I think I'll, I'll, I'll move to this question just cuz I think it'll capture a lot of what, um, I want to talk about so we can, we can sit with this for, for as long as we need to, but just sort of like to try to crystallize this, cause I think you've sprinkled it throughout.
[00:21:40] Uh, in terms of kind of, you know, your, your advice of that you'd give to institutions. Um, In this area, but certainly acknowledging that they may be, you know, grappling with limited resources, but like, if it is sort of like maybe those small pivots or, um, things to be looking into or researching or, uh, those sort of things that just, what advice would [00:22:00] you give institutions with limited resources to try to do their best to be supportive of these
[00:22:04] Perry Laroque: students?
[00:22:05] It's a great question and I actually do a fair number of trainings at colleges and, and so this is the question, right? And I'll get asked to come and do an hour long training. How to work with kids with autism in the classroom. And, and I just, you know, it always drives me a little nuts cuz it's like, Hey, I got a doctorate in this stuff.
[00:22:21] It took me , it took me five years. Just sum it up all in an hour. Thanks. An hour. Yeah. And, and you know, and I think faculty are sick of hearing like, this is what autism is and this is what people with autism do because anybody that you know has a temple granted, says anybody who's met one person with autism has met one person with autism.
[00:22:39] When I go onto campuses, I, I, I try to like reframe. One is that it take, it's gonna take more than just, we need better academic services or it's gonna take more than just like, we need to hire more people for our counseling services. Um, you know that it is a c it's gotta be a campus-wide approach and it's gotta be a paradigm flip.
[00:22:57] You know, I mean, if we think about [00:23:00] public schools, um, we don't have the choice of who we can and can't educate. Um, and so we hopefully are doing the best by everybody who's there. and that mentality. G you know, largely goes away with colleges because colleges, you're entering into them with some expectation that you have a certain set of skills.
[00:23:18] And those skills are all academic and, and personal life and independent living skills and all those other pieces are outside of the purview of the college. So in a lot of ways we have colleges who are struggling to get more students. You know, talked about this in, uh, a blog I wrote a few years back, but you have colleges who are at a greater pressure to, to recruit more students.
[00:23:42] Mm-hmm. . So they recruit more students, they end up being more diverse students. They bring them into a campus telling 'em that they have all the services that they possibly need. They on a campus who has underfunded college services that can't handle all these students and can't follow 'em out the door, which is the biggest issue.
[00:23:57] Or can't wake 'em up in the morning or whatever it is to get 'em to their [00:24:00] office, you know, so they start to lose those students. And then you have an administration who wants to then, um, focus on retention and cut funding for academic services. And then the loop kind of just swings back around. It's like this vicious circle.
[00:24:12] And largely, I think that what we think of as in camp in campuses, it's like, Hey, we have a disability problem and let's solve the problem for these kids with disabilities. And in general, I think it's, it's bigger than that. The dis people with disabilities tend to illuminate the larger. Problems with the way that we've structured colleges and that is this competitive, um, you know, weed people out mentality of, you know, let's make the course content hard and let's, let's curve scores and put people here and people there.
[00:24:44] And, and it's really meant to kind of like bring out the best and brightest for this competitive job market versus thinking more about the focus on the individual learner and what does that learner need. And oftentimes if we can assume that everyone who you've accepted into a college can learn the material well, you have this [00:25:00] opportunity to teach someone the material, but you also have to work with the things they bring to the table.
[00:25:05] And so with small colleges, you know, oftentimes I say everything that you have on campus and and small colleges have some advantages. Is that everything that you have on this campus, In terms of support, writing centers, math labs, um, tutoring, note takers, disability services, the, these are all the services these kids need, but you have to understand that they can't get to them unless someone can help them figure out how to get there.
[00:25:30] And I mean that both, you know, physically and also emotionally. Right. And so how are we wrapping our services around all of these students, giving all of the students the opportunity to get the support and services that they need? How are we getting ahead of mental health issues on campuses by helping students, everybody with their executive functioning challenges?
[00:25:49] How are we helping students think about their, um, wellness? How are we helping students think about when they're struggling and what can they do about. . And then quite frankly, there's, there is [00:26:00] this, uh, I say to, uh, college campuses, uh, and professors oftentimes that when you know what your student needs recommending, it is never gonna be enough.
[00:26:09] If you know a student really needs help with writing, or if you have a student who's in class who's depressed saying You should go to the counseling center. Is a great suggestion, but it's not enough. Right? If we really want to make a difference on college campuses, we have to be an engaged community to say, you need to go to counseling services.
[00:26:27] I know somebody there. Let me meet you after class and let's walk there together and I'll introduce you, because that's that kind of piece that some of these students actually need to use. That kind of services and supports and the follow ups and. just as an overall campus. It's, it's a question of like, how do we create the, these teams around students so that we're not losing 'em between the cracks and how can we make sure that they're utilizing, effectively utilizing the support the campus actually already has?
[00:26:52] It's not necessarily about building this new tutoring center and then saying, oh, we have a great new tutoring center. You still have to get people to walk through the door, and so how are we gonna [00:27:00] get them to walk through the door? And use the services. Um, one of my, uh, colleagues who's our admissions director, he often tells families there's only three questions that we need to ask for college readiness.
[00:27:12] And the first question is, does your son or daughter know when they need help? And do they know that early enough? And do they, are they able to accurately identify what they need help with? The second question is, do they know where to get that? . And the third question is, do they know how to use it? And if you answer no to any one of those three questions, that kid's gonna struggle in college.
[00:27:32] And so for colleges to think about the answers to those questions too, right? How are we helping students know when they're struggling? How are we helping those students understand where they get help for that? And how are we helping them use those services on an ongoing and meaningful basis? And that's that level of work that we need to do.
[00:27:47] But if the focus is on the learner and our focus is on retention and making sure that we. Preparing the students that are on campus for the next step in life, that there's going to take a different level of focus on [00:28:00] what learning entails than just providing more tutoring and more training on what autism is for your professors.
[00:28:07] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, um, what is making me think of is like, something that keeps kind of circling in my mind is like, there's been so much work on making. College accessible to students like, you know, trying to just like market a lot and get as many students in as possible. But then yeah, like either resources to support them while they're there aren't as accessible.
[00:28:29] All matters of the word as they should be. Or like how, how you're kind of detailing, like there's not really like a supportive ecosystem. Like there's not kind of the tools and, uh, infrastructure to kind of Yeah. Do that kind of wraparound support so that, you know. I don't know, just like everybody's on the same page and you know, everybody can be aware, just even like kind of digitally, you know, that version, maybe what you're kind of talking about of like walking someone to the, you know, counseling center.
[00:28:55] Just as we have more like hybrid and online students where it can be like, okay, I can at least [00:29:00] like. Mark in the students like activity log, like sent referral to this person or whatever. So then we can be like, Hey, I know that your advisor, you know, did X, Y, or Z a couple of weeks ago. Like, did you get a chance to do what they asked you to do?
[00:29:11] Or whatever. Like, just those sort of things. So I think that's, uh, yeah, just, just great advice and that, that, that's some of those areas of like culture change where there's like, certainly, you know, there may not be like an explicit cost, maybe b besides time, you know, like there's not like maybe a huge dollar sign to it, but like those are the things.
[00:29:31] And I, I also always try to capture it this way as like helps you be better supportive and retain all students, you know, whether they are, you know, from any diverse background or an adult learner or an online learner commuter student, like whoever it is. I think these are sort of the, uh, Kind of cultural pivots and, you know, sort of, uh, systems and everything that, uh, need to kind of adapt, you know, to this
[00:29:54] Perry Laroque: moment.
[00:29:55] Uh, yeah. And I'll, I'll just lemme jump in there and say that, you know, I, I taught special education [00:30:00] history for a long time, which is just a great course to teach, but, um, We are repeating the same mistake of the seventies right now with colleges, and my hope is that we're repeating the same mistakes, but we're also gonna solve that problem eventually too.
[00:30:13] And, and basically it was when we, when we made mandatory special education, when we BA basically said, all students get this free, inappropriate public education. And we had to provide services for students in schools. What we did was do all these separate things, right? Oh, well great. We'll have a learning disability classroom and we'll shove all the kids with learning disabilities in one classroom and we'll teach 'em there, which was probably better than nothing, you know, in terms of them not being included in the public schools.
[00:30:40] But we learned very quickly, well actually very quickly, it took us a decade or so to figure out that that self-contained model was, was ineffective. And so we started saying what students need to be, um, educated in their least restrictive environment. And we started doing a lot. Work in the actual general education classrooms and we wanted to kind of get rid of these self-contained classrooms.[00:31:00]
[00:31:00] We're seeing colleges make the same mistake right now, right? They wanna serve more students with autism, which is great. And um, and so the way we do that is we're gonna create a program and we're gonna accept 15 students with autism into our program every year. And they're gonna have their own special program, and they're gonna meet in the cafeteria together, and they're gonna meet in the office.
[00:31:18] And I think it's better than. like I do, but it, it is also to, in, in my mind, it's a little bit of a cop out because we know more now with Universal Design for Learning, which is a great training program for faculty that we shouldn't be doing this. What we used to call differentiated EDU education, like we shouldn't be doing differentiated instruction.
[00:31:39] We shouldn't be saying, oh, well, kids with disabilities learn this way, and kids without disabilities learn that way because we know there's no science to back that. We know that good teaching, good education, good training of faculty and good services benefit all students on campus. And so rather than spending thousands and thousands of dollars on creating a separate program, , let's put all that money to figure out how [00:32:00] do we make a campus more accessible to students with autism, and how do we make classrooms more accessible to students with autism, and how do we help them navigate the services and supports on campus, um, to do so?
[00:32:09] And how do we do that for all of our students? Cause we know that retention's gonna go up for everybody. Um, you look at, like University of Vermont, uh, Dr. Jim Hijack had created the learning and living community that was focused around mindfulness and, and you know, healthy habits. And you see all the students who really wanted, they desired that.
[00:32:25] And the. Positive incomes or outcomes that came out of that were just great for all of these students, whether they had a disability or not. And so, as a college campus, how do we start to change the whole paradigm to say, how do we, how are we a more open campus for everybody? Not necessarily how do we do really well with, with our, you know, gift and talented students?
[00:32:45] And then how do we have a separate program for students with disabilities? Cuz it doesn't, it's not, it doesn't, the world doesn't work that way and it certainly doesn't, it's, it's not as effective for students with disabil.
[00:32:54] Dustin Ramsdell: Great takeaways here. Um, and yeah, as we're winding down, I do wanna, uh, make sure we give time to our [00:33:00] two, uh, kinda standard final questions.
[00:33:02] So we definitely have ways to connect with you and, uh, your book and your podcast and, um, certainly like the, um, you know, the universal design resource that you mentioned as well. But, um, anything else that you want to name drop really quick, any other additional resources on this topic, uh, that we can include in the show?
[00:33:18] Perry Laroque: Yeah, I mean, I, so you know, my website, perry la rock.com and it's L a r O Q U e. Um, you know, that, that's got a lot of, you know, just sort of a, a good landing spot for a lot of these different resources and, and how to get in touch with me or how to buy the book, the books on Amazon, of course. Um, and, and in your local bookstores, You know, and the podcast is on my website and the, you know, sort of all over.
[00:33:41] I would also say another good, uh, resource is the College Autism Network. Um, you know, they're a wonderful group of people who are really doing their best to highlight different programs and services and supports around the country. It's a good place to kind of check that out, especially if you're, it's, you know, interested in autism.
[00:33:57] You know, overall, I would say is that there's a huge community out there [00:34:00] that's, that's working on this topic. You know, 10 years ago when we started Mansfield Hall, I think we were one of like 10 programs in the country. And now there's over 300 specifically around post-secondary education. And so, um, I think that there's a big movement in this direction.
[00:34:15] I hope colleges start to see the disability as diversity when they're starting to think of d e I write a great article about, it should be D E I A, diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility, which would make me really happy. Um, and you know, and I think that what we've seen is that when we give these.
[00:34:34] The opportunity, they take it. Mansfield Hall, um, you know, we see about a 70% college completion rate, which is higher than the average for students without disabilities. Students with disabilities fill, finish college at a rate of about 20%. And so it's really dire for students who are doing it without that support.
[00:34:53] And so how can we start to think of, of colleges as a place of learning? And if we're a place of learning, how are we gonna [00:35:00] focus on those learners to be successful?
[00:35:03] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah, I mean, and then I guess I could, I could tee you up for another sort of, uh, you know, final thought or call to action here as we usually do.
[00:35:10] But I feel like you, you shared such a good one there, but I mean, I'll just keep you giving you
[00:35:14] Perry Laroque: sort of the platform here to kinda, you know, spit out these, uh,
[00:35:17] Dustin Ramsdell: amazing morsels here because, uh, yeah, I mean, I think this is such a kind of refreshing and very, uh, relevant perspective and really capturing. You know, kind of objectively like that, that stat and figure too, where like, you know, You've been at this work for like a decade at getting like that huge positive gain, but obviously there's still a lot of work to be done.
[00:35:40] Cuz obviously it's like, yeah, I mean we would hope to like get it as close to a hundred percent, you know, graduation rate as possible. So like, you know, just keeping, uh, , you know, that fire burning. And I think to, to build on that quick little metaphor, like you, you know, I'm sure as others, you know, looking back like 10 years kind of have lit that torch to light the way for so [00:36:00] many other people to see like, oh wow, like this is possible.
[00:36:02] Like, and as kind of an internal optimist, like even seeing through kind of the, the tragedies of the past two years of the pandemic and how much, you know, that really disrupted people's lives and everyth. To me, it was also one of those opportunities where it could kind of light the way to be like, see if we just like, you know, through sheer force of will say that like, we're gonna do this and we follow it through.
[00:36:24] Like, we could do some pretty amazing things to actually help, you know, uplift people out of poverty and, you know, yeah. Uh, you know, fund what I believe are sort of really important aspects of, uh, kind of a caring society and all that. But yeah, I will still give you the floor here if you wanna wrap everything up Final.
[00:36:39] Perry Laroque: Ultimately it's gonna have to come down to legislation and funding. I mean, and that's, that's, that's the answer. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of small colleges that are listening that are like, oh, this would be great if we had the money to do it. And I agree. You can't put the backs, you, you can't put this on the backs of these small colleges.
[00:36:53] The big colleges, I think, have less of an excuse the small colleges who are doing their best of what they have. Um, [00:37:00] you can't expect them to start putting in this huge amount of effort for potentially what all these students are gonna need because they're struggling to survive already. You know, you'd like to think if we're gonna say that the American dream is going to college, that the American dream is for all kids, not just kids without disabilities.
[00:37:15] And so we need to put our money where our mouth is and, um, you know, we need to be able to provide support for these kids. I mean, uh, like I said, the inequities in terms of students requiring additional support in college. It's not about. You know, expensive programs like Mansfield Hall, there's families who can't afford tuition, period.
[00:37:34] And when they have, if they are affording tuition, um, or racking up student debt to add on $150 an hour coaching on top of that is out of reach for, for many, many families across this country. . And so we're seeing this huge amount of inequity and, and discrimination against students with disabilities in, in order to earn those college degrees.
[00:37:53] But yet we're still demanding that people get a college degree in this country in order to live the, you know, the American dream. And so I think colleges need [00:38:00] to, you know, stop the bleeding and do what they can to help these kids out. They're, they're here, they're, they're, they're excited, they're engaged, they're motivated, they want to give back.
[00:38:09] They want to not be takers. They want to be givers and. And we're gonna do the whole society a huge favor if we can, um, help them achieve their goals because it's, it's what, it's what we're hoping for as well. So, you know, I'm excited for the day when Mansfield Hall and other programs like ours are irrelevant because why would we do something separate when, when the college is open and welcoming to all students and meet them where they're at.
[00:38:37] Dustin Ramsdell: Right. Well, and I think just being. You know, doing what you're doing. Like it could be just like, oh, like this is sort of a blueprint to adapt. And then yeah, it's creating an environment that is, uh, more inclusive and supportive of all learners success and everything, but you've at least kind of, uh, you know, Shown again, like kind of shown in the way a bit.
[00:38:57] And yeah, I mean, um, my hope would be, cause I know [00:39:00] there's sort of a long overdue, uh, you know, sort of renewal of like higher education acts and, you know, these sort of broader measures where, you know, that could be like such an opportunity and in so many different ways to really, uh, have higher ed, better reflect kind of, uh, the present day and best practices and just sort of, you know, what a, what do modern learners look like and what do they need and how could we kind of.
[00:39:25] Create kind of a ecosystem that, you know, yeah, better funds that, and just creates more of the opportunities like what, what you're kind of working on, what you're advocating for. And we will end it there though. Thank you so much for, uh, sharing all that you did Perry. And uh, again, we'll have ways to connect with you and everything that you mentioned is the show note.
[00:39:41] As usual.
[00:39:42] Perry Laroque: Yeah. Just thank you so much for your time. Yeah, thanks so much Justin. I really appreciate it.About the Episode
The what's what...
Our guest for this bonus episode is Dr. Perry LaRoque, Founder and President of Mansfield Hall. Perry shares his story and reflections on his recent book, Taking Flight, as well as his podcast of the same name. He also details the ways that institutions can be more inclusive of learners with disabilities.
This episode is brought to you by our friends at DD Agency:
DD Agency is a higher ed-specific marketing technology agency that has conducted countless SEO Audits for colleges and universities across the country.
In these audits, they detail where you currently rank, what you could be ranking for, exactly how copy should be tweaked on website pages, and much more.
If this sounds like something you could benefit from, give those folks a ping and be sure to mention that Enrollify sent you to claim a 10% discount on any of their SEO offerings.
Head on over to enrollify.org/ddaseo, or simply follow the link in the show notes below…that will guarantee you get a 10% discount off of your audit.
About the Enrollify Podcast Network:
The Application is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you’ll like other Enrollify shows too!
Our podcast network is growing by the month and we’ve got a plethora of marketing, admissions, and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks all designed to empower you to be a better higher ed professional. Our shows feature a selection of the industry’s best as your hosts. Learn from Jeremy Tiers, Zach Busekrus, Jaime Hunt, Allison Turcio, Jamie Gleason and many more.
Learn more about The Enrollify Podcast Network at podcasts.enrollify.org. Our shows help higher ed marketers and admissions professionals find their next big idea — come and find yours!
About the Podcast
Dustin Ramsdell is a Higher EdTech content creator and influencer who aims to drive meaningful conversations with top leaders in the field. His show, The Higher Ed Geek Podcast, explores all the nuances of higher education, with a focus on innovative technology and practices from his fellow professionals. Dustin also currently works as the Community Engagement Lead at Pathify. He loves craft beer, good pizza, and sustainability. Dustin lives happily in Delaware with his wife, Jenn, their daughter, Ellie.
Dr. LaRoque is the founder and president of Mansfield Hall, an innovative residential college support program for diverse learners. He earned his doctorate in special education from the University of Wisconsin and has served in a variety of leadership roles serving at-risk youth and people with disabilities. Before returning for his doctoral work, Dr. LaRoque worked in an assisted-living care facility for adults with intellectual disabilities and taught special education in several public schools.
Sponsor Spots
We partner with the best, to provide the best information.
DD Agency
A full-service marketing technology agency
DD Agency is a digital marketing agency for higher education with a propensity for marketing technology. They're the only HubSpot Platinum Partner Agency that exclusively serves the enrollment marketing space. Living out their mission statement "We help Davids beat Goliaths" means DD helps clients develop inbound marketing strategies that use content and marketing automation to achieve their enrollment goals. Whether you're looking for a full-fledged, 12-month strategic marketing plan, or just a fresh approach to a blitz campaign, they're the marketing partner you want in your corner! The DD team is guided by 6 core values: treat clients like family, be ridiculously helpful, challenge conventional thinking, treasure transparency, adapt and improve, and "make it fridge-worthy."
learn moreThe Higher Ed Geek
The Higher Ed Geek Podcast explores the impact of edtech on the student experience by speaking with diverse leaders from institutions, companies, and nonprofit organizations. Each week we aim to provide an engaging, fun, and relevant dose of professional development that honors the wide range of work happening all across the higher ed ecosystem. Come geek out with us!
Subscribe to our podcasts
The Enrollify Podcast Network is your go-to hub for shows that will empower you to grow, optimize, adapt, and reach new heights as an enrollment marketer.
Keep Growing With Us
Join 5,500 other marketers and enrollment managers in wrestling with ideas that will reshape higher education.