Right-Sizing the University - LIVE from SXSW EDU 2023

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Justin Ramsdell: It is the final day of South by Southwest Ed U 2023. Uh, first thing in the morning here. So we've got, uh, folks in the audience here and, uh, excited to have a wide ranging conversation around right, right-sizing the university, which is sort of the journey I think a lot of institutions are gonna have to be embarking on balancing their physical assets and digital infrastructure.

[00:00:27] How can they sort of have those two things, uh, working well together with lean teams, uh, as they're embarking towards the hybrid frontier, as I've started to call it. Um, that I think is just gonna be kind of the, the new normal balancing, you know, physical spaces and instruction and digital communities and all sorts of things.

[00:00:45] So, we'll, As much as we can, uh, in the time that we have. And I'll try to give a few minutes at the end for questions as well. So we have the, uh, the microphones. Folks can hop up to those or just shout 'em out once we get to that point. My name is Dustin Ramsdale. I am the creator and host of the Hired Geek [00:01:00] Podcast.

[00:01:00] Uh, I've been doing it for over five years. Been a hired professional for almost 10 and did a different podcast before this one. So I've been podcasting for most of that time as well just talk, talking with folks about the trends affecting higher education. Uh, so I love doing this stuff. I love being here.

[00:01:15] Uh, so, uh, yeah, we'll go to you Kelvin 

[00:01:17] Kelvin Bentley: and introduce yourself. Yeah, good morning everyone. Uh, my name is Kelvin Bentley. I serve as a consulting manager with what is called, uh, WG Labs, affiliated with Western Governor's University. We are a part research and development shop. Uh, we also have a business accelerator, so I work on the accelerator side of things, working with early stage ed tech companies that are interested in making a social impact, uh, within the higher ed space.

[00:01:43] Uh, my background is that I, I have, you know, roughly 22 or 23 years of experience in higher ed, mostly overseeing online learning programs for two year and four year universities. And, uh, we're glad that you're here today. 

[00:01:58] Ciara Hamagishi: Hello everyone. My name is Sierra Hama [00:02:00] Gehi. I'm a senior partnerships manager focus on education at a company called Unity Technologies.

[00:02:05] If you don't know Unity, uh, it's a game engine that allows people to make two-dimensional or three-dimensional video games, but there's a lot of education use cases. If there's headsets, uh, a lot of those VR experiences are made with Unity in the augmented reality world. Pokemon Go, that's another use case.

[00:02:22] Uh, and there's lots of others in construction, architecture or film, virtual product. Don't worry, I won't get super technical. My background's more in partnership, so I work with, uh, educational institutions or organizations that are looking at helping students have the skills to use this technology with a special focus on underrepresented creators getting equitable access.

[00:02:45] And my background is in a lot of marketing admissions, international ed, and a lot in the bootcamp space as well, doing partnership. So looking forward to chatting today. My 

[00:02:53] Matt Tower: favorite part about Unity is now a lot of the movies are being made, so it's like you have the actor with the live movie [00:03:00] behind them,

[00:03:00] Um, so instead of a green screen, you actually know what you're acting in. So yeah, uh, there's some great articles on that that I encourage you to read. Um, I'm Matt Tower. I, uh, have been around the education technology space for a while. First as an operator at a startup, then at one of the big publishers, and then as an investor for the past kind of four or five years.

[00:03:20] Um, and I recently went independent and started writing my own newsletter. So, Which focuses again, on the kind of funding and m and a in the ed tech space. So I watched this university angle from, from more of the business side, but learned a lot from these guys. Very much appreciate your 

[00:03:37] Justin Ramsdell: perspective and your newsletter.

[00:03:38] We should go subscribe into the podcast, of course, but that's very good . Um, so we'll start, uh, with you Matt, kind of, um, with some context building. We'll kind of think run down the line here for everyone to give a little bit of input. But, um, from your perspective, what are the factors that are affecting institutions right now that are causing them to need to right size?

[00:03:57] I think that, you know, there has been so much that's been going on [00:04:00] over the past three years and certainly even before that, or just digital education becoming more ascendant and, uh, normalize. But um, yeah, if you wanna just speak to sort of the, the context that we're in. 

[00:04:10] Matt Tower: Yeah. And I think unsurprisingly my focus is kind of the, how the financial side has been affected.

[00:04:16] And I think over the past kind of three years we had this tr we had like all hands on deck, we gotta go digital. You know, , whatever it costs, and we'll figure out how to pay for it later. And um, I think over the past kind of 12 months, we've started to move towards, well, we can't just kind of blanket pay for digital stuff.

[00:04:38] We have to think about, we have a finite set of resources. Uh, we have a large physical plant in a lot of universities' cases. Um, and yet we also want to be able to serve our students in the way they wanna be served. And often that means digital, and that varies across demographics. So if you're a school that serves lots of demographics, like it's even more complex, good luck.[00:05:00] 

[00:05:00] But I think all of a sudden you go from, we, we have to figure out, we we're just gonna pay for it. We have to do this to, we're back to a budget. And the budget now has to cover both the physical and the digital. How do we allocate our resources? And, and I think that's, it's really complex. Um, so that's, that's 

[00:05:19] Justin Ramsdell: what I'm watching.

[00:05:20] Yeah. Well, and like, it's not made any easier by just sort of like enrollment challenges and that like, I think a lot of people kind of dog piled on like, you know, wanting to be the next sort of like, you know, x, y, z university global or something, and just sort of being like, well that'll just solve our problems.

[00:05:32] Right. It's like maybe, but you have to Yeah. Like invest in all the digital infrastructure to support those students and build all the content and all those sort of things. And I know that's a little bit of your perspective, Sierra is like, you know, how are we teaching these things, balancing sort of physical space and digital tools and, um, all those other trends.

[00:05:47] So, 

[00:05:49] Ciara Hamagishi: exactly. And I mean, I won't go into any more macro economic conditions, but I think that there is some opportunity not being the everything for everyone or going hard and everything, uh, [00:06:00] digital or technology. Looking at specifically where there is an opportunity for differentiation. I know for some schools that didn't have the elite name or didn't have the geography, I've seen them look at a sub area.

[00:06:12] So maybe they are getting into like having an XR innovation lab and they went from a school. To be honest, a lot of people outside of that very local area would not have heard of them. And now within a space either to students wanting to learn that skill or even to industry partners being like, okay, wow, they're doing something pretty emerging.

[00:06:28] And it's not necessarily just elite institutions that are doing that. It's some other people that are grabbing this kind of white space where all the major players aren't identified. So again, not trying to do that everywhere, but maybe if you find your own little sub niche that makes sense with the existing resources or the existing programs your school has.

[00:06:45] I've seen some pretty successful examples there. 

[00:06:47] Justin Ramsdell: Mm-hmm. . Well, yeah, cuz I think institutions have that sort of, uh, Economically to sort of just try to mirror and mimic each other. So like differentiation being really important and that like, cause it makes you think sometimes if it's just [00:07:00] like, yeah, they say like, Hey look, we have like a 3D printer or something.

[00:07:02] And it's like, you know, then they're just doing it and they're saying that because it's like, we join the club, we join the bandwagon. But it's like, yeah, if you really focus and invest in a particular thing and you build up, you know, subject matter expertise and everything, then that's how you differentiate people.

[00:07:16] Like, oh, I wanna go there because they, you know, have a great XR lab or something, you know, and those sort of things. But I guess on that point too, you know, Kelvin, when we were kind of prepping like some, there's the broader technological shifts that are sort of informing this context where I think it, there's no shortage of new, you know, shiny tools and things, right?

[00:07:33] And that we've had to, you know, obviously adapt and implement, uh, over the past three years and now sort of like, you know, getting above water and sort of being like, okay, where are we? Where do we want to go? And just how we sort of mm-hmm. navigate that in some of the context right now. 

[00:07:46] Kelvin Bentley: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, it's interesting because, you know, as I said earlier in my intro, I had a chance, um, years ago to kind of start managing like online learning programs.

[00:07:57] So I remember working for a school in [00:08:00] Pennsylvania, like around 2006, which had like, you know, tons of online course options for students, uh, even back then and, and online programs. But they lacked a lot of the wraparound services, right. So, which kind of breaks the model cuz when you are, you know, expected to be an online student, you think everything will be online.

[00:08:19] But this particular school, um, still told students you had to come to campus for, for tutoring services, you had to still come to campus for proctoring. Um, and I almost feel like now that we're post covid, as Matt mentioned, like we have thrown a lot of technology. I mean, we threw a lot of technology at the problem, uh, of, you know, students not coming to campus.

[00:08:41] But now we have to kind of strategically figure out, okay. Um, what technologies, and then, and I think I, I said this even last year, like what types of data, like what do we want to know about the student experience given that we have thrown technology as students, like, you know, zoom, the learning management systems, um, [00:09:00] adaptive learning tools.

[00:09:01] Um, I think the student voice is still missing in, in a lot of that. Uh, again, we have end of the, uh, end of the course, uh, surveys, but I think we need to do a better job of really just asking students in general, what is the student experience like, given that we are maybe doubling down on digital, or to Matt's point, what is the student student experience now, given the fact that we're retracting right.

[00:09:24] So are we losing the ability to maybe connect with our students because we are trying to save a buck in terms of, you know, maybe not spending what we need to. But, um, but I bring this up because I'm afraid that we will just kind of continue with business as usual. We'll continue to say, Hey, we have all these online programs, but we're not going to invest in other things because the wraparound services, and, and this is one of the things that I've always loved about W G U, they strongly believe in a culture of care.

[00:09:54] Right? And I think we need, I think more and more schools need to really look at the student holistically. Whether [00:10:00] they take a, a course online or face-to-face, the modality shouldn't matter, but we should have, um, an appropriate adoption of technologies where we're not breaking the bank, but we're also finding the best ways to support our students.

[00:10:13] And that, that takes a bigger conversation. It's not just looking at your Excel spreadsheet to figure out what you're spending, but really asking students, what is your life like? Is it better? Is it worse? What could, what, what other things could we be doing through technology and people to, uh, help you be successful in courses?

[00:10:32] And also, uh, you know, balancing the craziness of your life outside of school, which I think we don't always do a great job of, of, um, figuring out what, what is going on with a student outside of, uh, the courses that they're taking. 

[00:10:46] Matt Tower: So I think, um, just like to build on that a little bit, the, there's a stat in the K-12 world where we have somehow lost like 3 million students and it's, it's like particularly interesting that we're choosing the [00:11:00] word lost, um, which makes it really stark and like, uh, kind of shocking to read.

[00:11:05] Um, I don't think we have a comparable stat in the higher ed world because obviously it's a different population. It's not mandatory, et cetera, but, I think what it makes me think of Kelvin as in terms of the wraparound services, you can have digital programs that still need physical wraparound services.

[00:11:21] Um, and I know WG is online only, but Right. Um, I think that's where, again, this like hybrid university is interesting to me where, um, I know they're like executive education programs where they have you come in like a weekend a month. Right. And I'm curious if that will kind of, uh, kind of disperse out into other types of programs.

[00:11:42] Obviously it's easier if you're an executive at a company to like afford a flight to a school, but I think there, there is like a really important place for like, even if it's once a week or once a month, I don't, I think what I'm looking for is schools who are like, yeah, we actually looked at this and we tested once a week, twice a [00:12:00] week, once a month, et cetera.

[00:12:01] And we found that the highest impact way to bring people together in person was x. . Um, so that, that data I haven't seen, I really want it. Um, cuz I think it, it articulates that it's not just digital and it's not just in person, but it's, we found the kind 

[00:12:17] Justin Ramsdell: of sweet spot. Yeah. Yeah. That's always my sort of like, you know, north Star I guess is like, how can you get the best of both world?

[00:12:23] Like I think hybrid is, you know, the greatest sort of, has the greatest potential and opportunity to create, uh, positive student outcomes. When you like look at it really intentionally like that of like, okay, an immersive weekend for these students to do something like builds community, builds, you know, their network of colleagues and can have some really great hands-on learning opportunities.

[00:12:41] But then it's like we can actually teach this maybe as good or better via like, you know, online courses or something, but we still honor the importance and value of that physical community. And I think that's part of the right sizing cuz you kind of have to like get into the weeds and kind of get wonky with like, Each program, each course and those sort of things and start to kind of [00:13:00] interrogate and uh, kind of interface with like how do we want to teach each of the concepts and kind of keep that sort of continuous improvement cycle to understand like, okay, well I guess if we're doing this this way, then, you know, this is the needs we have for physical space or the types of physical spaces and those sort of things.

[00:13:15] So, and, and that's what I wanted to get to next. the idea of how are you leveraging those physical assets? Cause I've seen some, uh, really good examples of like, uh, I'll just give 'em a shout out. My alma mater, uh, university of Delaware. Uh, that's mine too. Well, yeah, that's right. Um, uh, so I mean, you have two great people here from a great institution, um, for and uh, yep, go Blue Hens and they had an old computer lab and converted it into an eSports arena and I've seen a lot of institutions do that where it's like play already kind networked for that.

[00:13:43] What keyword does your website ranks to student demands? What doesn't rank for space? A community space? What are a few opportunities you could be winning on if tweak some website, uh, put themselves out there in, how'd you do not Great. Golden exciting. That's okay. Way because our friends at DD agency, honor answer all of those [00:14:00] things like that.

[00:14:01] DD Agency is a higher ed specific marketing technology agency and it's conducted SEO audits for colleges and universities across the country. In these audits, they detail 

[00:14:11] Matt Tower: where you currently, what you could be 

[00:14:13] Justin Ramsdell: ranking for, exactly how copy should be tweaked on website pages and much more. 

[00:14:17] Zach Busekrus: Educational.

[00:14:18] This sounds like something you could benefit 

[00:14:19] Justin Ramsdell: from. Give those folks a ping and be sure to mention that Enroll, if I sent you to claim a 10% discount any other EO offers, head on over to enroll 

[00:14:27] Zach Busekrus: five.org/dd seo 

[00:14:30] Matt Tower: or simply follow the link of the 

[00:14:31] Justin Ramsdell: show notes below. Guarantee you 

[00:14:34] Matt Tower: 10% discount 

[00:14:35] Zach Busekrus: off. 

[00:14:36] Matt Tower: Again, 

[00:14:37] Justin Ramsdell: head on over role five.org/dd to learn those technical now 

[00:14:43] Ciara Hamagishi: onto the show.

[00:14:43] Investments for the space, like what? That's headsets or labs or something else. How they can be used for multiple stakeholders. And the easiest way, or not easiest, but the way that I've seen it more successful and where that's done cohesively is when there is perhaps a maker space and innovation center.

[00:14:58] Um, [00:15:00] or kind of, it could even be a library, like a natural common space that's there, but how they have utilized that to have a lot of areas come together to serve the school, to serve the community, to serve specific courses that are looking to integrate that technology or even students that are curious.

[00:15:13] Is a great local example. Um, Texas State University has their ALCA one center. If you guys don't know about it, I'd look into it. They have like every kind of technology that you can imagine there for the students to play around with and how they made that possible if you're looking for those breadcrumbs.

[00:15:27] They were able to look into a lot of grant funding. There's a lot of tech specific grant funding or even grant matching and I was like nasa, um, science foundation in Texas. And so they were able to look at the kind of the state level, uh, as well as corporate grants. And then they were able to get matching for those corporate grants to kind of make some of that possible.

[00:15:46] So I think multipurpose multiple stakeholders and then getting really creative of the funding doors that open or the opportunities that are there if you choose. I think my earlier point, differentiation, choose the spaces where. industry or [00:16:00] government is saying there's a bit of a focus is it's not gonna hurt 

[00:16:02] Justin Ramsdell: well, and and like those funding opportunities are there for a reason because it's just like, like we need more people that know how to use these tools and thi, you know, so they're just trying to pull the levers that they can.

[00:16:11] It's like, all right, let's, you know, make ourselves available and, you know, adapt to space with that sort of, um, support and everything and not go it alone. Cause I think it's just like, you know, we can all kinda reach higher levels of success, you know, working together in those ways. So, I dunno if anybody else sort of like rethinking physical spaces.

[00:16:26] Cause I think it's even just sometimes acknowledging that like, maybe we just don't need all the space we had anymore. You know, because when we have faculty and staff working from home, you know, all the time or part of the time, or obviously more and more like online or hybrid students or commuter students and those sort of things.

[00:16:39] Just any thoughts on physical space? 

[00:16:43] Matt Tower: I, I mean, I think the one funny thing I read, uh, from the workforce world the other day is that, uh, the artist formerly known as Facebook now Meta, um, is investing in cubicles. They're like 21st century cubicles, but they were like, yeah, you know, [00:17:00] we now have a lot more people coming back.

[00:17:02] So we've kind of redesigned this space that can be private in an office. Um, . So I think there's probably gonna be some, like what's old is new again type, uh, things where it's like, oh yeah, actually we probably do need, you know, a dedicated space for x, a dedicated space for y. Um, but hopefully we'll do it in some fun in different ways.

[00:17:24] Um 

[00:17:25] Justin Ramsdell: mm-hmm. , that's, that's something I, I love seeing is when like, yeah, some like tech funders or investors or whatever, you know, founders are just like, you know, coming up with something. It's like you just invented a library. It's like, what if everybody just like brought their books to one place and they borrow them their bat, and like, they think it's just like they discover.

[00:17:41] It's like, I mean, yeah, you can maybe do it differently, like with the app or whatever, but, um, , yeah. Kelvin, if there's like any thoughts? Physical space? No, I 

[00:17:49] Kelvin Bentley: mean, I, I as, as all of you were talking, talking about, you know, WGU doesn't really have a physical, you know, a physical space in the traditional sense, but, you know, this [00:18:00] conversation has, uh, ha had me thinking about maybe there's like a future article about.

[00:18:05] You know, maybe the title is We Work You Right? Um, because I think in some ways there is a need for, you know, um, a location for people to, to, to meet up and to share ideas. I was just having, uh, breakfast with my colleague Nick, who's here. Hey Nick. And, um, I mean, we were talking too about how, you know, even at a conference like this, it's great to, to network, right?

[00:18:28] And, and, and then to, to follow up and have maybe opportunities to even network with people outside of the immediacy of the conference. And, um, given that internships and apprenticeships are starting to really take off and become hotter and very popular, I just wonder if the physical space is not really campus space.

[00:18:46] It's, it's, we're, we're maybe, hopefully we're gonna double down on providing, you know, opportunities for, for people to network as they are on these internships. You know, or, or maybe similar organizations can actually like host [00:19:00] convenings where. Uh, lessons learned, uh, could be, could be had across different students, uh, working for different employers, um, because I think that networking, um, doesn't always happen.

[00:19:13] Uh, again, that social capital is still kind of, um, left to, uh, the individual to, to actually partake in. But if employers can maybe support that along with, uh, universities, I think that, I think that would be very cool to see. 

[00:19:28] Justin Ramsdell: Yeah, because I was on the show floor and I think, uh, ASU has something that they're kind of playing around with on that.

[00:19:34] And yeah, I, I've geeked out when I've talked to people about the potential of something like that, of like, especially just with the, uh, wide availability of like co-working spaces and stuff. It's like if they could be leveraged because people are sort of like, you know, acclimated to the idea, like, oh no, this is a place where you could just pop in, you know, you could book a room or do whatever you need to.

[00:19:50] And leveraging that sort of, you know, type of space for those sort of things where it's like, not, again, not on being like, well, hey, yeah, I mean, you're an individual student. If you wanna go there, go there. Like, it could be like, [00:20:00] no. As an institution, like we are going to work with them to set up something where it's like once a month we're getting people together to like Right.

[00:20:06] You know, even just lightly facilitate and structure that. Um, cause I think yeah, that's social capital and building your network and, um, all that is especially important, you know, for first gen students and all that. So I think trying to again, show that level of care like you were talking about, like that can be away, uh, to work towards that.

[00:20:22] And, and it's kind of interesting where it's like coming from an institution that's completely online, if it's still just like, there's like a little bit of yearning of like, oh, it'd be nice to have like a little bit of space to like, you know, whether it's our team coming together or like getting students together.

[00:20:33] Um, so with all that though, I think that, you know, there's obviously no shortage of, uh, great organizations and companies out there that are making really great digital innovations and tools and platforms to kind of supplement and augment, uh, the campus experience and everything. So I guess we can kind of go back down this way.

[00:20:50] We'll start with you, Kelvin kind of go down the line. Mm-hmm. . Um, the way that I wanted to frame this is like the digital innovations that you see that are really helping staff kind of. Of push [00:21:00] greater efficiency, greater quality and everything. Cause I think that's, again, where you're seeing the hybrid, the right sizing is that, you know, increasingly I think there's gonna need to be leaner teams.

[00:21:09] You know, institutions are struggling with retention and mm-hmm. , you know, it's almost like we need to invest in the quality of life of faculty and staff as they're working with students. So, mm-hmm. , what are things that come to mind that sort of, uh, help achieve that goal on the digital side? Yeah, I 

[00:21:24] Kelvin Bentley: mean, I think, um, like for example, within WGU Labs, um, and if you check out our website, you'll see our portfolio of companies that we've already, you know, invest, have invested in.

[00:21:33] And we have a couple more that we'll be announcing, uh, in the coming weeks. Um, I'm really interested in, and this is simply because my background in when I went to graduate school, I thought I was gonna be a clinical psychologist. So, you know, when I heard that we were gonna be working with, uh, a company like, um, flourish Labs, for example, which actually supports peer, uh, peer counseling, right?

[00:21:55] And so, , um, wraparound services, um, [00:22:00] like again, providing some type of psychological intervention to students either through peers like Flourish Labs, um, or, uh, you will, which is also a very popular, um, you know, online counseling company. So I think I'm very interested just to see over time what will happen.

[00:22:18] Like will schools actually still continue to have, um, their counseling center or, you know, school psychologists or clinical psychologist, counseling psychologist, or will that actually be, um, a service that they, uh, outsource right. To a company like you will or Flourish Labs or others. And I would say probably we need an interesting mix.

[00:22:40] Um, but I think, you know, the, the age of telemedicine, um, tele counseling, it's not gonna go away pandemic or no, I think that will continue to be important to detract. I also think even some basic things, um, tutoring, right? Like. We kind of throw that out and, and distinct that yes, you know, of course tutoring, but there's [00:23:00] still so many schools that are, I think, still relying on primarily, uh, an on-campus version of tutoring.

[00:23:05] And we know that many of our students are, are working students, right? So they're not gonna be able to, uh, easily integrate into, um, a tutoring schedule of a campus. And so how can we make that much more flexible? Um, and so, yeah. So those are some of the things I, I think are interesting. And also one other thing, coaching.

[00:23:24] So, um, you know, we've invested in, in companies like Lloyd and also a company called Go Coach, which was just rebranded as a company called, uh, skill Cycle. And so I'm very bullish around, you know, especially given the fact that the world of work and workforce development is, is a super hot topic for all of us.

[00:23:44] How can we actually provide coaching services to students and not the traditional way where we basically said, Hey Matt, uh, why don't you go to. , uh, the career services center, you know, to, to get, uh, your resume looked at. But actually like pairing, uh, students with coaches [00:24:00] that maybe even align with them in, in, in terms of affinity groups that students belong to where they can actually get more detailed coaching support around, um, around a job.

[00:24:11] But maybe it's also about just other things. So taking the idea of the student success coach, but making it even broader to help a person make that transition from college to the world of work a little easier. Um, so I'm very bullish about that as well. It's, it's, it's, it's sorely needed and again, telling students to go to career services on their own.

[00:24:31] I just, um, I, I think that's a broken model. I think we need to be much more intentional about providing those services to students around the, around their. Not around ours. 

[00:24:43] Ciara Hamagishi: Sure. I mean, I think I'll let Matt and Calvin talk about a lot of the cool inventions. I'll just speak to kind of the headsets in the room and maybe when it's the best idea to look at a VR headset, uh, as something that could create efficiency or will have the most successful, you know, utilization versus being something that's more of [00:25:00] entertainment or ends up in a cupboard, uh, somewhere.

[00:25:02] And so some really good examples of where it makes sense to look at virtual reality headset could be when something's extremely dangerous, like in a lot of mining or trades or things when that learning outcome or what the students are trying to achieve, you know, there's a dangerous factor when it's incredibly expensive to do that in real life.

[00:25:18] So I know there's like some cadaver labs that are being done, and so that's a case where you would have access to something you wouldn't normally have, or, uh, tying into that when there's a high need for repetition for something. And so it either creates a safer space to have that repetition or just the opportunity to do something that might normally need an in-person facilitator, but could be done, uh, virtually.

[00:25:39] And then the last two are a bit more about space. I've seen, I was actually here last year a cool example of uh, kind of some East coast US universities, uh, doing, um, lectures simultaneously with students that were in Africa and they were getting access to the lessons that were here, uh, in a way that would be a lot easier versus a Zoom, which probably wouldn't be [00:26:00] able to, the biology lab would be a little bit more difficult, uh, to kind of facilitate that.

[00:26:04] And the last one is really interesting, or you might like with the psychological perspective, but I've been hearing for students that are either very introverted students that are perhaps Neurodiverse as well as students that maybe unfortunately had something quite traumatic happen to them. Mm-hmm. , but they find the space behind the avatar is a lot easier.

[00:26:23] Mm-hmm. and allows them to have conversations they weren't able to have in person or bridges to opportunities where they could have those conversations in person. So those are some criteria I'd keep in mind for successful implementations of vr cuz I know, uh, That's a bit of a debated topic sometimes

[00:26:37] Matt Tower: Yeah. That's cool. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up the, uh, dear colleague letter that came out a couple weeks ago and maybe counterintuitively to what you'd expect from somebody who spent a while in the investing world. I think it, um, my takeaway was it asks like a really important existential question of like, what should a university be doing and what should [00:27:00] a partner be doing?

[00:27:01] Like the way they're, that ED is handling it is, well, we we're gonna start with, we just want to know who your partners are, which I think is fair, but I think it, it gets at this important question that we've kind of addressed piecemeal over the past kind of decade in EdTech, which is like, what are the specific functions that a university should own and what are the specific functions that are okay to out.

[00:27:25] Um, and, and how do you relay that to a student, which I don't think we've actually gotten that far yet. I think that's the next question is like, what should students know explicitly versus implicitly? So I think that's like one of the more important questions that we still have to ask and I think is relevant to this hybrid university that's, you know, online, digital, and I guess third party.

[00:27:50] So I think that's something I'm kind of playing around with. And my initial kind of takeaway is we're probably gonna have a lot more specialization [00:28:00] where you're gonna see universities, you'll, you'll still have your, your, your mega universities. But I think we'll see smaller universities find specific lanes to focus on.

[00:28:10] And I know you have some great examples of this, of like, if you can find something that you can be great at, there's a way to grow your brand maybe even bigger than you were before. Um, we're seeing local universities turn into regional and national players. because they found something specific to, to hang onto and excel at.

[00:28:28] So that's what I'm kind of curious to watch. Um, I, sorry, I I would love to have you talk about them cuz I know you know about uh, some of the stuff they're doing with the, the XR labs, um, and what were smaller universities that are now growing. Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:43] Ciara Hamagishi: and I for sure. I mean, I mean if people wanna look up a couple too, I also even throw a Canadian example in there.

[00:28:48] I didn't mention him from Canada, so I'll throw that. Um, but if you wanna look at like Lethbridge College and Alberta, they made an absolutely amazing start XR innovation center and I believe it was about a million dollar grant they got from the federal or, or [00:29:00] provincial government as well to support that.

[00:29:01] And so they were really early adopters in xr. And to be fair, I know no Americans have probably heard of Lethbridge, but a lot of Canadians might not have heard of it as well. It's not one of the major cities in Canada. Yeah. But in the VR space or ways they've able to kind of stand themselves out, they've actually made quite a name for themselves.

[00:29:18] So one that might be worth, uh, doing a quick Google and seeing what they did and follow some of the breadcrumbs there. 

[00:29:23] Matt Tower: and I, I, I just think it's a really big deal that like finding the, a new channel to be like, yeah, we are gonna be the best in the world. Like from what was more of a local university. Um, so I, I just want to like add as many exclamation points to that as I can.

[00:29:40] Yeah. Bold 

[00:29:41] Justin Ramsdell: line, circle. Um, well, cuz yeah, I think it's like, and you can get it why there's like so much of sort of a, like what are my peers doing keeping up at the Jones', kind of like vibe, you know, that like, not a lot of people and certainly institutions, if they've been around for, you know, 200 years, want to necessarily, you know, take on a lot of risks.

[00:29:57] They're, you know, they're worried about potential liabilities or [00:30:00] anything like that. But I think we're seeing with the, you know, laundry list of existential crises for higher education of enrollment cliffs and chat GTS and whatever else. Like, you know, now is the time to sort of think through like, how are we going to differentiate and kind of find, find our own lane.

[00:30:16] And it is interesting. Yeah. Just for a lot of stuff that mentioned is like, you know, for counseling or health or. You know, career services and things like that, like are the areas where there's always a little like bottlenecking of just sort of like, you know, a huge demand for services and just not a lot of, uh, staff availability.

[00:30:32] And I think that's why you see sometimes like the utilization just being like, just chronically low, where it's just like, not a lot of students use career services cause it's just not, they're not even able to probably like, get their head above water to be like, you know, doing anything proactively. They just kinda have to, you know, keep, you know, getting deluged by the fire hose of people, you know, just coming in.

[00:30:49] It's like, we're just trying to keep up, you know? Um, but yeah, like that idea of how you can leverage tools like the, the word I always use of sort of like supplementing or augmenting, you know, that it [00:31:00] isn't outsourcing. We're just like, you handle, like we can't, we can't, we're just gonna like get rid of it.

[00:31:03] There's a lot of different tools that sort of really. Are able to digitally, you know, uh, support institutions and maybe just like streamline and simplify the systems and processes that they have and allow for staff and faculty to kind of get freed up. You know, cause they even see things like chat bots, you know, that can do a lot of the addressing of the questions that might be, um, you know, taking up a lot of staff members' time.

[00:31:25] And, um, I'll give a little shout out, uh, Pathi my day job, you know, they, they do work in this space too. So I think, you know, we'll keep name dropping all these different companies that people can kind of check out and explore where like, there's just so many opportunities to kind of, uh, assess where you are, you know, all maybe the new tools that you are working with and implementing, what's working, what's not, and how can we make everything work better together as we're embarking towards this hybrid frontier?

[00:31:49] Because yeah, like resources are gonna be limited. You might be facing sort of an ambiguous, you know, enrollment future. Um, certainly just even. Shifting of where students [00:32:00] are like, and that's why you may need to right size versus like, oh wow, there's way more demand for shorter term online self-paced options versus a bachelor's degree or a graduate degree, or, um, those sort of things.

[00:32:12] So, mm-hmm. , I kind of wanted to get into that too, of just thoughts that people have had because I think maybe it's kind of apparent, but, um, we can just give it a, a few moments of focus here. So do the financial impacts, like you may be like moving resources and money and things around to right size to adapt your physical spaces and your digital infrastructure and everything.

[00:32:31] But, um, we'll start down the nma we come back down this way, but, um, yeah, like what are the financial impacts that we, these sort of shifts that we are going on, the context that we're in? 

[00:32:40] Matt Tower: Yeah. I think we will probably see more news about this, uh, as kind of the covid dollars work their way through the system and it becomes, uh, more critical to have sustainable financial operations.

[00:32:53] I think the interesting thing to me is, uh, Where the partnerships in physical [00:33:00] plant come in. So I think we saw even before Covid, a lot of universities starting to let the dorms be built by, you know, third parties and, um, that, you know, the, the kind of dining hall services and those types of things. Uh, again, being handed off to other, other parties, um, which maybe that frees up resources to invest in digital things or to, you know, build a, a, a certain area of practice.

[00:33:25] But, and then, you know, there's the, the kind of ever-present, like how many colleges are closing tracker lists? I'm, I'm not sure where that's gonna go yet. I feel like it's, um, we've been kind of sitting on the precipice for a while. Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:42] Ciara Hamagishi: I mean speaking, uh, what Matt was referencing, when some of the dollars are going down, especially from Covid, I think I'll, I'll try and focus on the opportunity side coming from, um, what I see of where maybe even companies are looking to invest as well.

[00:33:55] And I would say one example would be a bit of, I think you're saying partnership, the matchmaking [00:34:00] of what you're looking to do and who might willing to fund that. And so saying a bit of the criteria of what a company could be looking for. I think like one of the great examples that uh, if they're trying to build a talent pipeline, what they would like to see is where this is going all the way back where there's secondary school district that is really tightly integrated and working with either a college or higher ed institution and you're building that really strong pathway that goes all the way through.

[00:34:24] I think just, I like throwing out examples cause I think there's some things that people can go back and look at later. And so I think that looking at the, the Bay Area, Community College consortium, the B A C C, they've done a really amazing job and they were able, I mean this one does tide to unity, but they were able to match to, um, teaching a realtime 3D and kind of an XR pathway.

[00:34:45] But that was something that we were able to find them grant funds for. And it was very interesting because they've integrated both the secondary school system and the higher ed system. And so for companies, that's something to think about as you're designing a program or where there would be interest to perhaps [00:35:00] have opportunity to get some of those financial dollars when other areas are dry up

[00:35:04] And 

[00:35:04] Justin Ramsdell: to get that idea of like pulling those levers from foundations or government and all that. Like, because there is sort of a, a high need demand. Cause I think. It might be because like, you know, you work in this space and you're mentioning it like, for a lot of examples, like for me, like a clarifying important point.

[00:35:16] Like, it's still pretty early days for a lot of stuff. Like, so it's like, you know, people are listening to this and be like, oh, well it seems like everybody else is already doing it, right? Like, I'm, I'm late to the party. It's like, no, that's what like, people are like trying to like encourage and incentivize this kind of stuff.

[00:35:29] So like, you know, cause I think what we had talked about when we were planting is the idea of like, okay, find those places where you can plant the seeds. That will just be a like luscious harvest, you know, later on. Because it's gonna be like, yeah, we've been doing this for like five years. Like, you know, when other people are being like, oh, okay, I guess maybe I'll dip my foot in.

[00:35:45] It's like we're ahead of the game. Like we're kind of blazing a trail here. And then you get to like, You know, brag at conference zone about like, Hey, our institution, like, chose to kind of maybe get out a little, you know, of our comfort zone and do it also in collaboration with a good partner that could help us sort of, you know, [00:36:00] problem solve and troubleshoot and kind of, you know, pave the way and everything.

[00:36:03] So I kinda wanted to clarify, like, I, I thought of like, like, no, this is still like sort of a nice wide open kind of vista here. 

[00:36:10] Ciara Hamagishi: No, it's a great point. There are examples, but those are ones I'm pulling of, of like a best practice and we're trying to hold onto those to show a lot of other people that the, a lot of these programs are only a couple years old with certain of these funding opportunities, both corporate or government.

[00:36:23] So there's tons of chance to get in there, be the one that plants the seeds and be ahead of the 

[00:36:27] Matt Tower: game. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. 

[00:36:30] Kelvin Bentley: Yeah, I mean it's, it's tough, right? Because I think, I mean there's how, how many thousands of colleges and universities based on iPad's data, right? And to Matt's point, you know, we're, you know, we're, we're hearing a certain smaller schools at risk for closing.

[00:36:45] Um, again, if I had all the money in the world, one of the things as a, as a VC person or philanthropist person, I would try to find a way for us to do a better job of actually reporting out in terms of what we're finding. Like, [00:37:00] like our ecosystem is made up of a lot of different people, lots of different technologies.

[00:37:04] I don't think we do a great job, especially with our students in terms of educating them about what's working, what's not working so well. Um, remember earlier I said something about like, you know, end of the course surveys, right? But we know people kind of just fill those out as just, you know, going through the motions.

[00:37:20] But I, I would love for there to be almost like a consortia where more schools can actually just say in, in a, in a safe space, right? Like, here are all the technologies in our ecosystem, right? Here are all the pilots that we're doing. Um, here's some of our initial data. Um, you know, we're, we're finding these things are, you know, our students like these services, uh, face-to-face and online.

[00:37:45] Um, these are the things that are maybe not working so well, but we need to do a better job of actually like pulling, like leaning more into, showing our carts around what's working, what's not working. And it doesn't have to be at South By or, [00:38:00] you know, uh, or any of the major conferences that many of us go to every year.

[00:38:05] I think there needs to be just more reporting out on that, um, just so that schools can make a more, uh, informed decision, right. About what they should invest in. Um, and it's tough because, you know, when you come to a conference, everyone's like, we're awesome, right? Like, we're doing all these cool things with, uh, different technologies or micro-credentials or apprenticeships or, you know, all these things, but all buzzwords.

[00:38:30] Yeah. Right. It's all buzzword and it, and then we're kind of. Um, we're only seeing a part of a much larger ecosystem in terms of creativity and, and, um, so again, I'm, I'm kind of on a pulpit here bringing this up, but my hope is that the takeaway in which you're hearing too is that if you do work at a college or a university, um, continue to advocate for data collection around everything, right?

[00:38:58] Existing technologies, existing [00:39:00] services, pilots, uh, and don't be afraid to share that information out. Find a way to get outside of just doing it at a conference, uh, to look good, right? Like, we all want that for affirmation, but we need to do a much better job of making our silos leakier. There's so much insights that we're missing out on when we don't do that, and I get it because it's a competitive space, but it's also not a zero sum gain.

[00:39:25] You know, like, again, no one school, even W G U, and we've had these conversations internally, and you've heard it from Scott Pulsifer. Wgu is not gonna solve everyone's, uh, problems. Right. The mega universities, uh, individually won't be able to do that. It, it really takes all of us putting certain cards on the table and learning what's working, uh, especially now when budgets are tighter, uh, to make those better decisions about what's best for our students.

[00:39:51] Justin Ramsdell: Yeah. Well, cuz what it made me think of what you're saying is like, you know, acknowledging sort of like, you know, like a humility of like, okay, we need to hear from our students. We [00:40:00] need to really like, you know, look under the hood, whatever kind of metaphors and, you know, just really investigate like, where are we?

 

[00:40:05] Where is maybe our resources going that's not as effective as it could or should be. What are students looking for that they don't have? And just like acknowledging that and yeah. Like more frequently than just like once a year at whatever conference people go to, to like talk shop. Right. You know, just being kind of candidly acknowledging those things and that we're, you know, as institutional leaders like working on it.

[00:40:25] And I think, uh, What I hope for is that by going through this exercise of right sizing one, like the, the choices that you're making of where you're investing your physical spaces and digital infrastructure is able to, you know, better serve students. But theoretically it's like, if we're just like, okay, maybe we don't need to like, expand physically.

[00:40:44] Like those dollars could be put towards students or towards faculty staff compensation, like, and just taking better care of our people. Mm-hmm. and all those sort of things. So, you know, and I would think that's something that any, you know, organization, institution would aspire towards. But, um, yeah. Yeah, it is like an interesting, [00:41:00] interesting moment.

[00:41:00] Cause I think, you know, my perception is that these schools that are closing, and what I've heard in some like other podcasts and just like reporting on it, is that they like, almost like are too prideful. Like, they're kind of just like, you know, the ship is sinking and they're just sort of like, okay, let's just go down.

[00:41:15] Like, they're like, they're not doing anything about it. They're just sort of going down. Cause it's like, we don't wanna change. We, we like, this is who we are. And if that's not what the market wants anymore, then like, all right, I guess like, you know, they'll just go away. Cuz then it's like, you know, if they can.

[00:41:27] sometimes be, you know, candid and acknowledge like, we need help or there's things that we wanna be able to do if we can't. So we wanna collaborate and merge maybe with, you know, another institution and those sort of things. So I think it's, yeah, just an interesting moment that you do have to kind of have a little bit of humility to kind of start to, um, be open to the opportunity, 

[00:41:45] Kelvin Bentley: right?

[00:41:45] It's like a Drake song, right? It's like I'm caught up in my feelings, right? And so there's lots of feelings, faculty unions, faculty senates, right? And so, you know, so I, I, I, please believe me when I say this, like [00:42:00] I, I do understand that it's, you know, when I'm suggesting is not happening in a vacuum. Like, we do have to deal with a lot of, uh, a lot of stuff, a lot of drama within our own institutions.

[00:42:11] But to your point, can we be selfless enough to put the needs of our students before our own? And that's tough, right? Because at the end of the day, it's, you know, there's a self-preservation individually as an institution. . But, um, but again, our institutions exist because of our students. Right. So what, what are we 

[00:42:30] Matt Tower: doing?

[00:42:31] Well, I, I think what's complicated is, um, I, I think of most universities, uh, as serving three kind of core pillars. The first is students, like you said. The second is, um, research. Like they are, obviously it varies and not every university does research, but usually there's students research and employment.

[00:42:55] They're, they're economic engines for their local area. And [00:43:00] I think what you see with the mega universities, which I, I think you would acknowledge makes it a little bit different in terms of your calculus, is you're mostly serving students. There's, there's less research going on, and you are an economic engine, but you're a national economic engine.

[00:43:14] Mm-hmm. . So I think what, what makes it really hard for the, um, regional and, and even state universities is you, you still have to serve those other two masters. . Um, and that, I don't think we've figured out how to, how to translate. I think we've done a pretty good job on the student part cuz we've had the, the, the bigger online universities kind of lead the charge and show how you can serve students digitally in a, in an effective way, in a financially sustainable way.

[00:43:41] Mm-hmm. , I don't know that we have a great model for the research and the, like, serving local employment digitally is kind of an oxymoron. So, so I, I really, I have a lot of, um, empathy for the, uh, university leaders that are trying to serve this in a time of [00:44:00] really distinct change. Um, I wish I had a better answer for 

[00:44:03] Justin Ramsdell: how to navigate it.

[00:44:04] That's a very good point to acknowledge though. Cause I, I, that's certainly a blind spot that I thought of it is that kind of the town and gown thing? Yeah. If an institution was just like hiring a bunch, but remotely, they might start getting the stink guy from the local mayor or something, you know, where they're just like, what, what are you doing?

[00:44:17] Like, you want the tax revenue for here, not where that person lives halfway across the country or something. You know? And that could just be where it starts to bristle, where it's like you'd have to again think through like, okay, what are the physical investments that we can make that are smart, like a maker space that, you know, creates a really great learning opportunity where it's like, okay, that does have people that are working in this space and, you know, creating learning opportunities there versus, you know, just going all in like it does need to be.

[00:44:42] And hence sort of the, the hybrid focus for this conversation. Like it needs to be that you're sort of throttling across all the different sort of areas where it's like, okay, well this can be something that's like really well served by being, you know, either entirely digital or mostly digital and, you know, you've got maybe some remote staff members and you know, it's enabled us to like [00:45:00] retain high quality talent to, to do the work that we need to do.

[00:45:02] But, um, yeah, that's a, that's a good point of acknowledging them. Mm-hmm. . Um, so we are getting towards the end here. Uh, so yeah, I mean, I kind of had just like concluding thoughts. Certainly. I mean, we have time. If anybody else sort of has final thoughts, I know for my podcast, always have final thoughts or calls to action, uh, to inspire folks as we're wrapping up.

[00:45:22] And we'll have a few minutes for, for questions. But, you know, in my mind it is just that at, at overall kind of necessity of staying lean and adjusting to realistic and sustainable. Size and maybe honestly haven't even like, gotten into like, price, you know, like of like what you're charging for the institution, which, you know, can be obviously determined by, you know, the various investments and obligations of debt that you're taking on as you're, you know, growing your institution.

[00:45:45] But, you know, leaning into those differentiators and, you know, making those smart, flexible digital investments and honestly starting to try to like, trim the dead weight. You know, like find those areas where it's just like, this really is not working out for us or for students anymore. So, and [00:46:00] yeah, I mean, we already talked about institutions starting to close and merge and stuff, so you're seeing those kind of winners and losers sort of panning out.

[00:46:05] So, um, we'll go back down. Kelvin, starting with you. Any final thoughts, calls to action for 

[00:46:10] Kelvin Bentley: folks? No, again, again, it's, it's gonna take, uh, again, institutional knowledge across all of our institutions. We haven't talked, uh, today about, uh, HBCUs and, uh, MSI and HSIs and, uh, again, community colleges. Um, so we need to again, find, um, we need to encourage each other, I think, to collect better data.

[00:46:32] Unpack what we've been doing all along. Um, I'm a big fan actually of a K through 12 tool called the Learn Platform, which actually helps schools, uh, you know, figure out what types of technologies, uh, their instructors are using. So I almost feel like we need a similar tool in higher ed to just help us, again, better understand the technology we're using, but also beyond that, the services, you know, what's working, what's not working, and let's start doing, um, a better job of, [00:47:00] you know, also updating the students in terms of where we are.

[00:47:02] Right? So show them in a dashboard or, uh, regular reports, quarterly reports, um, where how you're using data to actually make their lives better. I don't think we do a great job of that. Um, and if we do, it's like end of the year. So I say, you know, that's fine. But what about quarterly reports, right?

[00:47:22] Students are stakeholders. , um, we're relying heavily on their on, on their, on their tuition dollars. So why aren't we giving them updates about how we're using data to better understand their life circumstances and how we are making that better over time? Hopefully. And if we're not, let's own up to that and say, oh yeah, we're doing a shitty job.

[00:47:41] Excuse me, for the podcast. But, um, but, but we can do better, right? We have to find a way to remind students that we're on their, on their side, um, and not just wait till the end of the year to give them updates. Yeah, let's update them regularly. I love 

[00:47:57] Justin Ramsdell: that idea. 

[00:47:57] Ciara Hamagishi: Yeah. Perfect. Um, I did wanna [00:48:00] underscore again, the, there is a lot of opportunity in the space and to mention what you just brought up as well, Calvin, in terms of equitable, equitable opportunity mm-hmm.

[00:48:08] and ensuring that, luckily Texas State is an hsi. So we did bring up one there and there are other, um, there are organizations that do have that vested interest in ensuring that not only, you know, is there differentiation or it's a way for school to survive, but there is y. Access for those that are underserved or underrepresented to ensure that they have the same opportunities as well.

[00:48:27] And so I just even throw another example out. Um, Spelman College just made a great, uh, gaming minor that really focuses on a lot of these emerging technologies. And there was a lot of, you know, both corporate and, and other support for that. Mm-hmm. . And so I think it is important if you are serving those populations to know that there is a lot of opportunity there as well.

[00:48:48] And there are a lot of organizations that have underscored that as a purpose. And so 

[00:48:53] Zach Busekrus: mm-hmm. . 

[00:48:54] Matt Tower: Okay. Let's, I think for me it's, um, providing more opportunities to [00:49:00] talk about the different models that are happening in higher ed. So, you know, I think, like we all know the, the co-op colleges, it's like Northeastern, Drexel and Waterloo.

[00:49:09] It's like, there, there, there's probably more, but, uh, I feel like the fact that we can pretty much name them is, is, uh, like good that they, those are known, but also sad that there's not more. Um, and similar like the work college, it's like Paul Quinn Brea and like, I think there's one other, uh, there's, I, so I want to, I want to find ways to tell these stories of new models that are happening mm-hmm.

[00:49:32] and what people are experimenting with, because I think it is, it's really hard when you've been around for 200 years to experiment. My hope is that as, uh, these new types of models get talked about, um, it encourages more folks to try it. Um, rather than going down with the ship is kind of a sad, sad, but maybe accurate metaphor.

[00:49:52] Yeah. 

[00:49:52] Justin Ramsdell: Um, just thinking of like a, like classical, like painting or something of Yeah. Something. I don't know. Yeah. Like old captain. Yeah. I want 

[00:49:58] Matt Tower: to tell those stories, so if you [00:50:00] know of them, let me 

[00:50:00] Justin Ramsdell: know. . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, cause, and like, Northeastern is a good example, like, like acquiring other colleges, like, because like they know what their model is and what they wanna do and it like behooves them to sort of create sort of national network of sites and things that they can sort of have like.

[00:50:14] Uh, to kind of coordinate, I'm sure, you know, business and co-op. And 

[00:50:16] it's 

[00:50:17] Matt Tower: so funny, they've been so tremendously successful with that co-op model, and yet we still have, you know, a relative dearth of other colleges trying that. Mm-hmm. . Um, and it's not like it's easy, but you know, when you have this example, like, I, I, I would love to see more follow suit.

[00:50:31] Yeah. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:50:32] Justin Ramsdell: Yeah. Great, great calls to action. Uh, appreciate everybody on the panel here, uh, sharing all their thoughts and everything. But we do have time, uh, just roughly about like nine minutes or so. Folks wanna shout out any questions to all of us or any of us. Um, certainly have some space to do that.

[00:50:46] Anybody got things on their mind? Burning questions? 

[00:50:51] Audience Member 1: Yeah. Matt, this is, uh, specifically for you to anybody else comment as well? You asked about, um, the recent tier quality letter [00:51:00] saying what should the university own is part of their, um, operations and should start when partnerships with companies to build those niches out.

[00:51:11] It raises that question. There was a lot of potential risk involved in partnering. How does the, how many university are, be aware of those risks of partnership and make sure they're owning what they should own 

[00:51:22] Justin Ramsdell: while 

[00:51:23] Matt Tower: learning that version. So maybe I'll just repeat it. So it's uh, uh, hearable on the, a podcast.

[00:51:30] So, and correct me if I get this wrong, but what, how should a university evaluate the risk of building something themselves versus using a partner to help, uh, provide a service? Is that fair? Um, , so I think there, it varies by the service. I think in some, uh, for, in some ways it's pretty well known, so like teaching and learning, we've got a whole industry of OPMs and [00:52:00] like most OPMs will give you like a, Hey, this is probably what it would cost you to build this and here's what it would cost you to do it with us.

[00:52:07] And, uh, here's what it looks like with revshare for at least the next, like three to six months. Uh, and then here's what it looks like for fee for service. So I think that's like pretty established and like, you know, I think most of them are being pretty honest and it's What do you as a university have in terms of financial capacity to like fund something yourself versus do it via a partner?

[00:52:27] Um, I think there's also for like physical plant, there's, uh, you know, usually like real estate, private equity funds that will do a similar, uh, run through with you. Um, so this is probably not as, uh, specific an answer as you want, but I, I think a lot of it comes down to vision and says like, what do you as a university leader think is core to your mission as a university?

[00:52:54] And you know, I think there's a lot of ways to get a national service out of it. So for coaching or [00:53:00] tutoring, you can get that nationally. Do you specifically feel like you have a way to add value to tutoring on campus or, or digitally via your specific type of personnel? So one of the things I, I coach entrepreneurs on, um, I usually a question early stage entrepreneurs ask is like, should we be B2B or b2c?

[00:53:19] Uh, do we sell to other businesses or do we recruit consumers? I'm like, well, you know, you have three team members. Like what are the skills that your team members have? Like if your team is all people who have done business to consumer, like don't build a business to business, uh, go to market motion. If your team is all business to business salespeople, like, don't build a consumer sales function, right?

[00:53:41] So I think what I would do is I would look at the staff that you have and like what their skillset is and align your vision to that and say, you know, this is what we think we can do uniquely on our campus. Um, And like, you know, I can't guarantee that will work , but, but at least [00:54:00] then you're trying to leverage the people that you have, um, to do something unique and 

[00:54:04] Justin Ramsdell: interesting.

[00:54:05] Cause I feel like, yeah, like the simplest fork in the road that I think institutions get at, get at for this kind of stuff is like, do we want somebody else to do it? Or like, are we gonna have a tool that augments us to do it ourselves? Like that tends to be where it's like, do we want to have somebody from, you know, uh, better help counselor our students?

[00:54:23] Or do we want to try to figure out some way to augment our counselors to be able to serve more students or, you know, serve students more efficiently And Cause I think, yeah, like tutoring is another good example where it's like, do we want a tool that just helps us manage our tutoring center or do we want to outsource to Wisen to just have students go there and get tutoring from you?

[00:54:42] Anybody, you know? So it's just like, that's sometimes like the simplest fork in the road. And it is just sort of an existential question that, you know, obviously institutions can change their mind, but sometimes it's like they're presented with that option and they're like, I don't know, I don't, just don't like that risk of a student going off to getting tutored by someone else in this sort of, well, and, and to be 

[00:54:58] Matt Tower: clear, like that [00:55:00] should vary by university, right?

[00:55:02] Um, and by the skillset that that university has. Mm-hmm. . Um, I think that's really like, you know, teachers college, Columbia, teachers College, like, probably is pretty good at tutoring . Uh, but like, you know, maybe they're not equipped to like, I mean, build their own LMS as a facetious example, but I, I really think it, it should vary.

[00:55:20] Mm-hmm. . 

[00:55:21] Kelvin Bentley: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's, it's almost gonna come down to like, also on the vendor side too, in, in schools, like, schools want partners, not vendors, right? So if you are a vendor, it, it behooves you to again, sell without selling. Right. Don't. don't come at school saying, oh, we can, you know, like the Tina Turner song, like, I'll be your private dancer.

[00:55:45] I'll, I'll, I'll do anything for you. Like, it's two musical references. I know I'm, I'm not doing a great shot with those, but, but you get my point, right? Like a lot of, there are many companies that try to like overwhelm schools and say, oh, we can do, we can do anything you want, whatever. But, [00:56:00] but in some ways, be humble, right?

[00:56:02] As a company, be hungry, right? Be entrepreneurial, but be humble as well, and say what your limitations are. Say what's going to actually be, um, I mean, acknowledge that maybe you have more things on your future roadmap, versus things that are actually available today. It is 

[00:56:17] Matt Tower: definitely on the roadmap. I just wanted confirm 

[00:56:20] Justin Ramsdell: that it's there, 

[00:56:21] Kelvin Bentley: right?

[00:56:22] But, but you know, schools, schools want to, to know who they're truly working with, and then schools, if you're a school, do your due diligence and then some, right? Talk to as many other schools. Are partnering with whatever companies, especially on the OPM side, make sure you're not signing up with, uh, a demon's contract where you're locked in for like 20, 20 plus years.

[00:56:43] Um, uh, and, and think about it, um, similar to what Dustin mentioned too, think about the bigger picture. So maybe working with an OPM helps you in the short term, but think about how hopefully you can reinvest in yourself to then say, opm, it's been [00:57:00] great working with you. We, we have it from here. We're gonna, you know, um, continue to move, uh, the needle forward ourselves because we see value here.

[00:57:08] We're gonna reinvest, you know, maybe we're not gonna build an, uh, uh, another, you know, 20 buildings and, and, uh, but instead we'll take that money to actually do the job ourselves. So, yeah. Yeah. Again, easier said than done, but yeah, appreciate 

[00:57:22] Justin Ramsdell: it. We kind of took it from both perspectives there, um, on that kind of conversation.

[00:57:25] So, any other questions? Cause I feel like we have time for me, one or two more. 

[00:57:30] Audience Member 2: Um, I'm wondering if you've seen any institutions that bring potentially going outta business or maybe that way. Mm-hmm. , um, that have physical campuses to

[00:57:47] infrastructure structure. Cause when I think about the technology side of it, it's easy to say, don't need that technology.[00:58:00] 

[00:58:08] Mm-hmm. , 

[00:58:09] if you have three buildings, 

[00:58:11] million year that I'm just institutions.

[00:58:26] Matt Tower: there's one that, uh, I'm not gonna name, but I think they like, sold most of their campus to some, like crypto entrepreneur to ha throw like crypto retreats. Um, so that's like a strategy you could pursue. It was, you know, probably easier to do in like 2020 and 2021 than now. Um, but I, one institution that is not failing, that I think is doing this in a really compelling way is Colby College.

[00:58:50] Um, they, you know, they're in, you know, they're way up there in Maine and they have said, To my point about the kind of local [00:59:00] economy, um, conundrum, they've said, well, what, what can we offer that would compel people to come up here? And so they've rebuilt a lot of the downtown, um, around co-working spaces, um, and they're trying to attract remote workers to, and, and they're kind of, they're less online as a college, but they're trying to say, we can pull people up here if we do these kinds of interesting things downtown, and we have the endowment.

[00:59:25] Uh, which again, not everybody has to be able to invest in our kind of local economy in this way. So I think they're a good example. Um, I don't know, you see like Penn and Northeastern investing in campuses around the country. I can't think of like a failing school that sold off a chunk and then was, you know, not failing anymore.

[00:59:46] Um, and do you guys. 

[00:59:48] Justin Ramsdell: No, I guess not even. Yeah. And we have to wrap up. But the only thing that, um, cause I wrote on this topic recently and, um, university Akron got a lot of headlines and it was less so I think of like, physical space. They may have had some, uh, changes there, [01:00:00] but like, they were just making really dramatic cuts and a lot of people were like, whoa, like, what is going on?

[01:00:04] But like, I think they're positioning themselves and planting those seeds and doing all this stuff that we talked about, like building the largest eSports facility in the entire country and just being like, these programs aren't cutting it. We're gonna have to get rid of them. And like, they've just, I think, had clearly some really hard conversations.

[01:00:18] But, um, I think for me, I'm seeing that as like they kind of have the courage to try again versus just sort of, you know, riding off into the sunset and just kind of like, you know, not really being innovative, but, 

[01:00:30] Kelvin Bentley: and maybe the PASI system. I don't know. Over time, given at the, within the Pennsylvania, uh, system of higher education, there are some schools that have merged.

[01:00:39] So I don't know if. Um, I don't know if some of those campuses are starting to sell off some of their land that that might be worth looking into as well. 

[01:00:48] Justin Ramsdell: Yeah, or just not. Growing their footprint, you know? Yeah, right. All right. We're not buying any more buildings, but, right. Um, so appreciate the questions, appreciate everybody coming out.

[01:00:55] Appreciate my panelists for having an awesome conversation. Um, and even though it's the [01:01:00] last day, hopefully folks, just enjoy the rest of your time here in Austin and the conference. Yeah, thanks everybody.

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