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Podcasts The Higher Ed Geek Episode 188
Kate Colbert Explores a New Era for Higher Ed
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Full Transcript
Enrollify_HigherEdGeek_Audio_Episode188_KateColbert_Version1
[00:00:00] Dustin Ramsdell: I am
[00:00:06] excited for our conversation today. Always awesome to talk with somebody who has put in the work, uh, made a book, a very comprehensive book. You know, people who really, uh, dig in deep have conversations like, How we're having conversations now, but sort of curating it together, connecting dots and putting it out into the world.
[00:00:22] You know, it's a, it's a labor of love and, uh, you know, wanna help, uh, do our part, sort of Cigna boosted it up and talk about, you know, how it came to be and sort of the insights from this book. So, Kate, we'll have you introduce yourself really quickly and, uh, sort of how you got to kind of get to this point of writing this book
[00:00:37] Kate Colbert: in the first.
[00:00:38] Well, thanks so much for having me, Dustin. So I'm Kate Culvert. I am a marketer and market researcher, um, communications expert, corporate ghost writer, higher education thought leader, and author of the new book Commencement, the beginning of a new era in a Higher education, which I co-authored with Dr. Joe Sucio.
[00:00:56] Um, and um, yeah, it's been kind of all higher education all the [00:01:00] time lately since, um, putting together a very comprehensive book, um, based on the. 125 college and university.
[00:01:08] Dustin Ramsdell: This will be, and I'm sure you probably have heard this phrase before, you know, like, it, it, it is really just like, it feels like this sort of like textbook or sort of just like this really comprehensive sort of kinda lexicon of this moment, you know, of just sort of these insights where all these people that are sort of, you know, they've been through it, they're going through it, they're looking ahead to the future and everything.
[00:01:25] But, you know, like I said, I, I like these sort of books because it's also, I think like, you know, you can kind of get the little like, kind of bite-size pieces to an extent of just like, oh, I've read, you know, the sort of like perspective and things like that. But like, um, So I guess in an, in sort of a as concise of sort of a package as you can kind of put it, like how did this book come to be?
[00:01:46] Because I think just like one, like what's the topic? How are we gonna put it all together and all that. Like what was sort of that process like?
[00:01:53] Kate Colbert: Yeah, so I think commencement's origin story is actually really, um, pretty interesting. So, um, right at the [00:02:00] beginning of 2022 gentlemen who I did not know at the time, Dr.
[00:02:03] Joe Solutio, who is a senior VP at Lindon Wood University and Elvin Frak, um, who is a higher education expert himself, um, had sort of linked up. They had not known each other very long either. Um, and they decided like, Create a podcast and just bring interesting people from higher education, um, to the microphone.
[00:02:21] And that podcast is called the Ed Up Experience Podcast. Um, it is, um, now I believe one of the largest or most downloaded podcasts in higher education around the world. Um, and it just so happened that they started this kind of just as the pandemic was about to, um, um, hit us. And they very early on started inviting pretty big names, um, presidents of colleges and universities as well as, you know, folks like the head of education at, you know, Google.
[00:02:47] Um, and started having really interesting conversations. And about a year into that they had, um, Interviewed a little over a hundred presidents, I think at that point A as well as other people from the higher ed ecosystem and [00:03:00] a mutual contact between, um, the ed up guys and, and me introduced us. Um, and um, we had a conversation and they said, you know, very few people, unless they've been listening from the very beginning, are gonna go back and listen to a hundred plus interviews with presidents.
[00:03:14] But we believe that there's a book in there. We believe that the insights from these presidents, and when you think about it, right, Dustin, like if you've. Four or on behalf of, or consulted with, you know, five universities, eight colleges and universities. You might have a pretty good breadth of, of insight, but you don't know what's happening at another a hundred or another thousand.
[00:03:34] And so very few people have ever had that kind of insider review, um, from all of these president's offices in higher ed. And so they contacted me and said, we think there's a book there. And I said, it sounds like it. Um, and um, they didn't know at the time, they thought, they contacted me thinking that I was gonna help.
[00:03:51] With maybe some ghost writing or some publication support because in addition, the communications company that I own happens to have a book publishing division. And so they [00:04:00] were contacting me because I was a publisher. What they didn't know is that I'm a professional writer and that I'm a higher education expert.
[00:04:05] And so they had no idea, um, that I knew the content and that I've worked inside higher ed, um, as the head of marketing and communications from multiple institutions. I've been a faculty member. Um, and Joe just was super excited and he's like, you're a purple unicorn. Like you're exactly who we need, um, to do this book.
[00:04:22] And so we decided that we would sort of slice at the 125 of president's mark that they have now interviewed well over 200, um, uh, presidents on, on, at up. Um, and we decided, We have a lot to say about higher ed having worked in it and around it and I've been consulting for colleges and universities across the, the nation for a long time and we decided that while we have our own opinions, we were going to let the president's opinions lead the book, um, and the structure.
[00:04:50] So it was a hard project. Um, you know, it's 558 pages long. Um, it's actually a pretty easy read for a long book cause it's got big pull quotes and quizzes [00:05:00] and reflection questions and whatnot. But, You know, I started out, I, I was behind the eight ball. I hadn't heard all the episodes. Um, and so I had to go back in time and listen to them.
[00:05:10] And sit there and descript with the transcripts. And every time somebody said something brilliant, I thought, oh, that might be worth quoting in a book. And I would copy paste, and of course they were a mess and I'd have to clean them up and make sure it really said on screen what they actually verbally said.
[00:05:24] Um, and, and I did this for hundreds of hours, um, for several um, months, and then started to say, Now how do I pull out the themes? And so it was actually a fairly scientific project at first, you know, really sort of figuring out what are the themes, how does that break out into, you know, six or eight or 10 or 12, um, sort of.
[00:05:42] Chapters and then how do those chapters fit into sections and what's that sort of overarching, um, theme about what the future of higher education looks like? What really helped, and, and, and I actually have said that I would not have helped write this book, um, if this had not been in place. Um, very early on, Alvin FRAs [00:06:00] had a really brilliant idea and he said to Joe, when you interview the presidents, um, and you should always ask at the end of the interview, what do you think the future of higher education.
[00:06:09] And those moments were fascinating as were the entire interviews, but, but having that sort of thread that stitched throughout all those interviews of them, um, sort of postulating about what the future might look like, um, helped us pull this all together. And so, um, without our own opinions sort of informing it, yet we decided that this is what the leaders in higher ed are saying.
[00:06:28] Um, these are sort of what the treasures and troubles of higher ed look like right now. And we decided to write a book that we wanted to be kind of equal parts love. To higher ed. Um, and, um, devil's advocate, um, we do share strong opinions throughout the book, um, and they're kind of hard to miss and we make our own predictions to the epilogue.
[00:06:48] Um, but we're not afraid to let the reader decide. So we might share a story from a president in chapter three that argues. You know that, that the student is a customer and they're a V [00:07:00] I P customer. And having a more retail, um, based approach to it, um, is really the way to, to handle student-centered, um, learning.
[00:07:07] And there might be a president in chapter seven who argues completely the opposite. And, um, you can kind of figure where we come down on some of these topics, but we wanted this book to be. Anybody who worked in higher ed, um, we wanted people to be seen. And I think that's what's been really kind of exciting is that, you know, whether you're two years into a higher education career and you work, you know, in the admissions office or you're a faculty member, or you're a chancellor and you've been doing this for 25 years, um, this book speaks directly to those of us.
[00:07:37] Um, In, or, um, you know, on behalf of and around higher education. So the primary readers are people who work in it, but as a consultant, we wanted to make sure that those of us and who consult to it, um, were spoken to as well. So it was a lot of work. Um, it, it took a long, long time to pull it all together and to write it, um, and then to make it interesting.
[00:07:57] So it was really important to me that this did not sound like a [00:08:00] dissertation. So the. Funny and fun and witty and snarky. Um, and it says a lot of the things that people have been wanting to say about higher ed and we're afraid they'd get fired. Um, and nobody can fire me. Um, and Joe is pretty fearless.
[00:08:12] And so we went ahead and just told the
[00:08:14] Dustin Ramsdell: truth. That's sort of a content strategy is like, okay, if you do something, how can we sort of like repurpose it? You know, cut it up into clips for social media or, you know, do whatever. But theoretically, I'm sure somebody like, oh yeah, it would've been so easy. Like you just did all those interviews already and just like, you, like dump the transcripts into, you know, like a book and then you're done.
[00:08:32] What
[00:08:32] Kate Colbert: a bad book. I mean. Yeah, and to be fair, you know, like I think Joe and I have Jo joked around about this, right? So it, it. I think actually at the beginning he, he kind of thought since, you know, he was responsible for getting all that intellectual property to us and, and doing those interviews. Um, and then having that sort of inside higher ed leadership, um, um, perspective in the book.
[00:08:52] Um, but as, as a writer, and I think he expected that I. I would kind of do that, that I would just dump a bunch of interesting things and sort of string them [00:09:00] together. And, um, and that would've been a really bad book. Um, you know, no matter how brilliant, because the voices of these presidents sound really different or you know, how you go from talking about what this president said to this president, you need really thoughtful transitions.
[00:09:14] Though I will say this, Dustin, that made for a really challenging my effort to make this a really smooth, interesting read where. Wanted to keep flipping page after page after page, um, did sort of bite me. Um, at one point. So, you know, of course we were writing this book, um, during a lot of change in higher ed, which is kind of the whole point.
[00:09:33] And there inevitably would be people that were interviewed who maybe, you know, were no longer with that institution. And there was a reason maybe we didn't wanna quote them anymore or maybe they were embroiled in some sort of scandal. Um, and we thought, oh gosh, maybe we don't wanna put their name in this book anymore.
[00:09:48] I had worked so hard to take a quote and then sort of reflect on what they said, draw a conclusion from it, then connect it to a new concept that introduced the next quote [00:10:00] that the quotes were so, Perfectly sort of transitioned together that it was almost like old fashioned Christmas lights where if one bulb goes out, they all went out.
[00:10:08] And so if I would remove a quote somehow, like the entire chapter would fall apart, um, and I would have to go back and kind of rewrite the whole thing. So there was definitely those moments, um, because there was, you know, that kind of the whole higher ed leadership, great resignation. Um, I think, I think I last heard, um, in the last four years, uh, one third of college and university presidents is, have, have turned.
[00:10:29] Dustin Ramsdell: Another part of it is just like choosing to do it at this particular time when it's like, you know, very relevant and all that. Like it's either, yeah, it's either like very dry, like you said, sort of like academic because it's just kind of like, You know, it doesn't have a sort of a personality to it or it's like you kind of rip out too much of sort of the core of it.
[00:10:48] So it's kind of shallow where it's like, yeah, I mean it's a quick read. It's kind of just, you know what it is, but there's not really that idea of, I think like what I certainly try to do a lot with like writing, and this is like that idea of like connecting [00:11:00] dots because you might just be getting sort of like this one perspective here to this, you know?
[00:11:03] Uh, so. That. And I also appreciate because like anybody who's listened to me for a while or like in different podcasts, like I do, like that sort of vibe of like asking like the same question and, and it is sort of like a beautiful sort of, uh, kind of catalyst for, you know, uh, having that opportunity, that potential to be like, okay, we've done like, you know, x amount of episodes or conversations.
[00:11:27] Like what, what are sort of the insights from, you know, everybody about, you know, one thing or another? So, uh, yeah, I mean, I think it. You know, something where, you know, something worth having, you know, is gonna be a challenge, you know? So I think, uh, like I said, just good on you for, you know, putting in the work and the labor of love here and, uh, cuz yeah, I mean, it's.
[00:11:47] You know, like I said, sort of this like really comprehensive view on this moment and like, you know, the, the time capsule, I'm sure another sort of metaphor or something, you know, so it's like helpful for people now to have all these insights. But then also for [00:12:00] people like in the future, they can really have such a visceral, sort of tangible sort of insight.
[00:12:05] Kate Colbert: Yeah, I think it's gonna be relevant. We got asked this yesterday. Um, Joe and I were, um, speaking, um, to an audience of about a thousand people at Western Governor's University. And, um, they were asking, somebody asked, um, a question about like, you know, how long do you think the book will be relevant and will you be writing subsequent books and, you know, Like book updates and how is all that gonna work?
[00:12:24] And you know, every time somebody asks me about the next book, I just wanna faint like, um, it's like, oh, you have no idea how much work this was. But this book has a lot of legs. And I do think that, um, for at least 10 years, I mean really through the 2020s and beyond, and we're talking about a lot of.
[00:12:37] Trends in the book that are going to take a while, um, for, um, some institutions to really implement the changes they need to make, um, or to feel the pain that they're gonna pay it, it was feel before they actually are willing to make some changes. And so I think the, you know, we, we wrote the book, um, when we did because, you know, we knew that demographic Cliff was upon us.
[00:12:57] Um, and that that was a really big issue. We also [00:13:00] knew that there was this sort of anti-intellectualism sort of movement happening in the, in the United States. And, you know, all you have to. Turn on any random media channel and somebody's doing a story about, is college still even worth it? We thought it was really important that the presidents and the, those of us who could give a megaphone to this conversation were part of that conversation because it's really, really important.
[00:13:21] But thank you. You know, we. We've been very, very gratified by the response. And, um, super, super grateful to Derek Newton, who contributes to Forbes for being one of the first big articles about the book. Um, who referred to it, you know, almost in identical terms what you had just said. He, he said that it was, you know, commencements, the indispensable touchpoint of what's happening in and around higher education right now.
[00:13:43] And, and, and he said, really anybody, you know, a vp, a dean, whatever, who doesn't have it on their bookshelf, is reliably missing the conversation. And that's. An incredible compliment to us. Um, and we, we really, really, really wanted to do you all proud when we wrote this book? And I'm pretty hard [00:14:00] on myself as a professional writer and uh, this is the hardest project of my career and I'm really proud of it.
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[00:15:16] My mind thinks in like metaphors a lot, and it's an idea of like what you're kinda saying is like you're. Capturing this moment, but also looking towards the future where it's like, you know, we were hit with like a meteor, you know, with the pandemic that just like hard stop, everything's shut down. But then that sort of like H hit sort of created all these ripples that are sort of just sort of like cascading out and bouncing around, you know, and whatever.
[00:15:39] So it's like, You know, that's gonna take time and see how that sort of like plays out. Uh, so yeah, I mean I think it's very appropriate to kinda have that perspective, like the relevancy with kind of a long
[00:15:48] Kate Colbert: tail and who's coming in our footsteps. Right? You know what? Young professionals are just beginning to work in higher education who maybe weren't working in higher ed at the beginning of the pandemic.
[00:15:58] Um, you know, who are gonna wanna read chapter [00:16:00] five of commencement, which is called Pandemic as panaceas. They can understand like, oh, these mindsets. Practices, this sort of approach. Um, you know, this wasn't even a thing necessarily at, at the institution at work before the pandemic. And maybe this is what sort of, uh, was the impetus behind some of this?
[00:16:16] And again, you know, a lot of it, some of our research was actually really heartbreaking. You know, we had a, somebody wrote, so we, we did the interviews with 125 presidents, but we also did survey research and it was anonymous with higher ed professionals at all. And, um, the anonymity helped with the truth telling.
[00:16:33] So they were, we were able to ask really tough questions. So they talked to us about, you know, how stable they feel in their jobs. How likely are they to be looking for a job outside of higher ed? Um, what percentage of them are looking, um, seriously right now at a. Um, merger or acquisition, um, or strategic partnership of their institution.
[00:16:50] 45% by the way. Um, so significant changes, you know, and one of the really sad moments, um, for us when we were looking at that data was one of the open-ended questions [00:17:00] somebody revealed to us that he was an IT professional and he had been the, the tech support person who was helping students with their online login and whatnot for doing distance education when, uh, this was a face-to-face primarily campus.
[00:17:14] Had had closed down at the beginning and when they reopened their campus, he was let go and was told by their, um, uh, CIO that now that the pandemic is mostly behind us and our campus is reopened, um, there we don't have any need for online learning. And I thought, wow, what? A huge loss for an institution to have been forced through massive change.
[00:17:39] You know, certainly emergency response online learning is not the same thing as pedagogically designed online learning. But to have learned what it is to make quick decisions on behalf of your students and your faculty and staff, um, and to not. Take the lesson, you know, to go right back to how you were doing things before, um, is really a shame.
[00:17:59] The good news is, [00:18:00] is I think, you know, more than half of higher education institutions learned really important lessons these last few years, um, and are applying it to the benefit of their stakeholders, which is really good news. Yeah.
[00:18:12] Dustin Ramsdell: Well, and I think as we're kind just navigating through sort of, you know, uh, You know, kinda the insights, learnings, sort of experience going through, uh, writing this book and everything.
[00:18:22] Like, one thing that I wanna ask, cause I think like there's, you know, again, with my sort of geeky, nerdy sort of point of view, like, you know, you've worked in higher ed, you sort of like blossomed out into this world of, you know, writing and communications and all that, you know, kinda a wider world and everything.
[00:18:36] But still kinda, I think have that part of your, your heart and your core, uh, drawn towards higher education. Like, what is it about that? Because I think like, Especially now, obviously there are people who just sort of like divorce themselves and are like, I'm going el you know, elsewhere and all that. You know, even people in K through 12 and teachers and everything.
[00:18:53] So like what is it about it that sort of keeps you wanting to kind of stay involved, put something together like this that obviously was such a sort of. [00:19:00] Laborious effort and everything for sort of the benefit of everyone, uh, in the higher ed space and everything. So like what is it about, you know, higher ed that's sort of like engaging or sort of, you know, uh, kind of keeps pulling you back?
[00:19:10] Yeah,
[00:19:11] Kate Colbert: you know what? Thank you for that. It's a good question. I think that, um, you know, a lot of people look back at their own college experience if they, um, you know, did a degree program or whatnot and they sometimes look back at that as their, their glory days. Um, and for me, interestingly, I was just so nosed to the grindstone when I was a college student in undergrad and in both my graduate programs.
[00:19:29] I don't wanna say that I didn't enjoy the moment. So for me, I've actually fallen more in love with higher education after I sort of, you know, got out of it as a student and even after I got out of it as an inside director. And so, you know, one of the things that's kind of unique about me, I think, is that I actually was connected to higher ed before I was even a consumer of it.
[00:19:48] So my very first job when I was 16, um, was in the bookstore at a community college. Um, so College of Lake County. I grew up in Grays Lake, um, Illinois, and. My mom worked at CLC and my [00:20:00] brother worked in the bookstore, and I wanted to make better money than I was making, um, babysitting. And I was old enough to start to get a job.
[00:20:06] And so, um, you know, when I was in high school, I was, you know, reading syllabi and stocking books and seeing what curriculum looked like and applying Pell grants to people's, um, book expenses. And, um, and without realizing it really. Getting pulled into the fabric of higher education. Um, I went on to get a bunch of degrees.
[00:20:26] My, I got my associates there and then my bachelor's, my first master's degree in comparative literature. Um, and then ultimately ended up, um, I worked as a, a faculty member after that first, um, master's degree. So I taught freshman English at multiple institutions and very quickly, um, realized that as much as I loved teaching, I didn't love teaching as much as I loved.
[00:20:46] And so it's not the same thing to teach other people to write as it is to do your own writing. And so I decided to become a journalist for several years and, um, wrote about high tech. I actually worked for a semiconductor magazine and I was the first [00:21:00] journalist in the world actually to break the news about, um, the invention of Bluetooth technology.
[00:21:04] I found as a writer, it was really fascinating to learn about a topic that I had no expertise in. Um, at my job interview actually for that. You know, I remember the, the interviewer and the, the chief editor said, you know, we usually hire the semiconductor engineers to be our, our editors and you know, don't have that background in engineering and whatnot.
[00:21:23] And I said, no. I said, it's a fair question. And I said, so I think ultimately you have to ask yourself this, would it be easier to teach me about semiconductor engineering or would it be easier to teach an engineer how. And he laughed and I got the job. And, um, but what I found, um, through that experience was that it's fascinating to keep learning.
[00:21:43] It's fascinating to have a job where you're good at a portion of it, but where part of it requires that you be constantly learning that you're never gonna be truly an expert. Um, And that felt like being a student again. Um, and so I ultimately became the director of communications at, um, Rosalyn Franklin [00:22:00] University of Medicine and Science, which was a really great experience.
[00:22:02] And then, um, got recruited away while I was working on my mba, um, to be the director of marketing, um, at a standalone MBA program in Chicagoland called Lake Forest Graduate School of Management. I worked on corporate education, so I've always been in the front of the classroom in some way. Behind the scenes in higher ed and then ultimately decided, um, it's a lot more fun to do it as a consultant, um, for a variety of reasons, right?
[00:22:25] I always say that working in higher ed, the only thing that's more political than higher education is politics. Um, and so I also think that one of the things that we saw in the research for this book is that. Different institutions run differently. Um, and the only way to really sort of get a sense of it all, um, is to touch a lot of them.
[00:22:44] And as a consultant, I have the opportunity to work for a lot of different kinds of colleges and universities and never get pigeonholed, you know, as a, you know, private liberal arts person or a public institution or a community college, um, person. And so I'm having a whole lot of, uh, a whole lot of fun.
[00:22:59] Dustin Ramsdell: [00:23:00] It takes a certain kind of person to sort of like have kind of the constitution and, you know, fortitude to kind of push forward in education and like, you know, healthcare and other spaces are the same, where I think it can take a lot out of you. It, yeah, it can be very political or just very uh, You know, bureaucratic or different things like that.
[00:23:16] So I think like, and it's not even saying that as like a dig to the people who sort of like divorce themselves from, cuz it's just like, hey, like please go find whatever else will bring you joy and all. Like, I want that for everybody to f find that sort of alignment of like, you know, the right environment, the right, you know, position doing the right kind of work that you know they're good at and that they enjoy.
[00:23:35] And uh, you know, how kind of that whole spectrum sort of plays out of, you know, uh, but. Yeah, I think just like for a lot of people it's like how you're kinda saying too, or like kind of working with educational institutions. Like that's, for me, I think my sort of perfect place where it's like, you know, at the end of the day a lot of the decisions or things that [00:24:00] we do is still about like, you know, serving students.
[00:24:02] So it's like that I, I never wanna lose that, even though it's like, yeah, I mean, I'm not interacting with individual students like I used. That's the
[00:24:09] Kate Colbert: beauty of it. Right. And, and I think, I think you're right. Healthcare is actually a really perfect sort of side-by-side comparison, right? So, you know, you might be burned out as a nurse or a doctor, but you went into healthcare because you care about people's health.
[00:24:22] And so what does it look like then to go be a sort of clinical consultant to the healthcare industry in a different way? Right. So I do a lot of work with healthcare as well and um, you know, work, one of my big clients is a medical malpractice insurance company, and it's just full of not just lawyers.
[00:24:37] Full of nurses who have desk jobs, who are helping understand patient safety issues and how do we look at that? And I'm the same way for higher ed. I, I, I like the way you talk about that because, um, there are a lot of reasons why I don't. I don't think that there anybody could ever make me an offer to work on the inside of higher ed that I would take like, um, listen, I mean everyone loves the t i A Craf account, right?
[00:24:58] Um, in fact, like I [00:25:00] have, um, a swag store, um, higher ed swag bag.com, and then we even have things that say I'm here for the students. And really tiny it says, and the T I A A craf account, but it's hard. Right? And a lot of colleges and univers. So much about the culture of working there is really coming from the presidency.
[00:25:16] Um, and you might have a really great experience for four years and then that president leaves and someone comes in and they're kind of a tyrant or, um, and your job satisfaction can just fall off a cliff. I have a lot of friends who are working in higher ed right now who love the students and they love the work, but they're not loving the team they're on.
[00:25:32] They're not loving the boss that they report to. And, um, and so, um, a real pat on the back to anybody. Loves an industry enough to find a way to keep serving it differently, even if they've been sort of scarred by it. Um, and I think that that's, um, the case, um, for a lot of people in, in higher ed and healthcare where we say, I can, I can be of meaning.
[00:25:54] In fact, when I was kind of in the final months and we were in the final months of writing commencement, [00:26:00] Um, uh, one of my clients, which is a top 50, um, research institution, asked if I would do a big market research project for them, which I've done in previous years for them. And they repeat the research every few years.
[00:26:10] And it's my, it's my favorite project. I mean, like literally my favorite project and one of my favorite clients ever. Um, and it would automatically always be a yes. And it was interesting to hear. Respond to that. They of course did a whole RFP even though they, you know, wanted to give the the work to me.
[00:26:27] Cause I'd done it in the past and it was really hard for me. But the truth of the matter was what I told them. And I said, if I take this project for you, like I will be buried in it full-time for the next six months. And no matter how much good work we do, the only institution I help during those six months is yours or I.
[00:26:46] Finish this project and get commencement out the door in a way that, um, is really rising, um, to the standards that Joe and Alvin and I set for this book. And I could maybe help 4,000 universities in the United States and [00:27:00] several thousand others in other countries. Um, and for me, I was in it to help not just.
[00:27:06] 5,000 students or 10,000 students or 30,000 students, but what would it look like if I could make a difference for millions of people? Um, and that became really clear that the opportunity to do that was in writing commencement well, and then kind of making a full-time job of going out there to campuses and, and getting onto, uh, media outlets like yours, um, to help people understand that, um, this book is there for them to give them ideas, to give them the ability.
[00:27:31] Walk into a meeting with their boss or a committee and slam that big heavy book on the table and say, it's right here in chapter six, that thing I've been telling you, like, dammit, there's an example of a college or university that's doing it and we shouldn't be so afraid. Like, here's the social proof.
[00:27:46] And so for me, this book was a way to help a lot of people, um, in a really, um, somewhat sort of concise.
[00:27:53] Dustin Ramsdell: On one hand, it's just like, you know, hearing the unique perspectives of all these, uh, presidents and just sort of [00:28:00] like really getting that sort of pulse check and then like what you're saying to you about like, almost like the power of, you know, the top person at institution, how they're sort of affecting, you know, because they're gonna say like, yeah, students are customers, or I don't think they are.
[00:28:13] Or like, and that's just gonna filter through the whole culture of the institution for better or worse. And just sort of like kind of interfacing with that. But even. Because I wanted, I like to mention this, I don't wanna forget, like a, another big takeaway is like hoping that, you know, graduate students, new professionals and you know, different folks like have.
[00:28:32] Likely, but it's just a gaping void of sort of that context and information. Because I was just thinking, I was like, oh my gosh, if I was like a grad student studying through like one, just like the disruptions of my studying Yeah. And all that, but like, you know, you're like in a program during the pandemic, it's like obviously nothing you're reading is at all relevant to like this new, you know, sort of frontier.
[00:28:54] It's not, yeah, it's. You need stuff like this to kind of like fill it cuz it's like, yeah, still all the classic [00:29:00] student development theories are true and all that kind of stuff, but like, you're gonna just feel such like sort of ill-equipped to kind of, you know, really understand this moment as you're coming out.
[00:29:09] Well
[00:29:09] Kate Colbert: that's exactly it, you know, in terms of what we want people, um, to take away. I mean, it in some ways it sort of comes down to what the very last line of the book is that the beginning of a new era in higher education begins with. Like each individual person who's working in or on behalf of or around higher education has an opportunity, um, to not get sucked into what my co-author, um, Dr.
[00:29:31] Sucio calls the assimilation culture, where he actually just had a piece, I think came out today in fierce education, uh, about assimilation culture. This idea that. That even when we show up at a new college or university with our own ways of doing things, we find out how they do things and we usually just relent and we just fit right into their culture.
[00:29:47] Or this process has to go through three committees or whatnot. Um, and, but that's not how higher education is gonna change. Higher education is gonna change when we can all look in the mirror and say, [00:30:00] This new way of being truly student-centered, of truly offering access, affordability, flexibility, um, you know, belongingness, um, all of this.
[00:30:11] It only happens if each one of us, um, sort of steps up and says, I'm willing to do away with the status quo. I'm willing to feel a little uncomfortable while we do some disruptive things. I'm willing to take some risks, um, and, and I'm willing to start asking the students, what do you need from us that we're not giving you now?
[00:30:29] And I'm willing to fight for them, um, to evolve this institution. So that's, you know, a huge part of it. We also, you know, really want people to, to take away that. That your perspective and what you do is really important and there are lots of other people who have different perspectives. And, um, and it behooves you to understand sort of what's being said, you know, in President's offices.
[00:30:50] Um, and, and maybe there are just things that you've not thought about. I mean, certainly for us, we'd never heard of a school that, um, allows the students to earn [00:31:00] cryptocurrency and pay down their tuition. And when they graduate, they become part owner of the. We'd never heard of that until we interviewed the president of G C A S, um, college Dublin.
[00:31:08] Right? We'd never heard of a community college that was venture backed, where the curriculum strategy around what programs are we gonna offer, um, were really, really clear about, we are not gonna offer programs where the people who get employed in these particular fields will be going into a field where we believe that automation or robotics, um, will.
[00:31:27] Have them out of a job within 20 years. So any of those jobs that we think that that's gonna happen for, we're not gonna educate for that. We're not gonna educate for jobs where people are not allowed to work from home. And we only wanna educate, um, for programs where you can get, um, uh, academic credentials, some sort of certificate from a community college and um, an industry recognized credential.
[00:31:47] Right. So become like a Salesforce administrator and you also. That licensure from Salesforce, not just your community college certificate, um, and that you're gonna be making a family supporting wage of $50,000 [00:32:00] or more immediately after finishing the program. So we talked to Akiba Cos the president, um, at Foundry College.
[00:32:06] That's what their college is all about. That's what they're doing. And so, you know, I think if you've. Only ever worked in one or two or three different kinds of schools. You have no idea what the, the, you know, other parts of the sector really looked like. And that was exciting for us. Um, and that's been exciting for us to hear feedback from readers of our book saying, oh, I've always thought like, you know, if, if we could figure out how to think about, you know, so Joe has a really interesting argument in the book.
[00:32:33] Why, if we say that we believe in lifelong learning, right? Then why are we never getting the same students back? Why if they get an undergraduate degree from us, um, are they going and getting a graduate degree from another institution? Even though we might offer that program, they're looking for like, why is there no loyalty?
[00:32:49] Um, and what would it look like if we had a loyalty program? What if, what if college relationships with students and learners looked more like, you know, a Marriott Rewards program where you would [00:33:00] never, ever stay at a hotel other than Marriott because of the way they've treated you. I have four college degrees from four separate institutions.
[00:33:06] Um, and, um, frankly, and when I talk about this in the book, um, none of them have ever offered me any meaningful experience beyond the first thing that they sold me. And so, you know, we like to talk about things like lifelong learning, but we don't really know how to execute it on, on higher ed. So, We wanted people to read this book and one be validated for what they've been thinking and feeling and going, oh my gosh, there's somebody that's in this book, like it's right here.
[00:33:29] Um, and we wanted them to feel empowered to be the conduit for change, to show them, you know, here are some people doing some really innovative things and here's how you can do it too.
[00:33:42] Dustin Ramsdell: Yeah, I just love the kind of inherent, uh, optimism, sort of the imagination. Yeah. Uh, you know, about what's possible. Cuz that's like, through such a like tumultuous, ambiguous, you know, difficult time that we all had to go through. Like, you know, you kind of have to like that much more carve out your sort of [00:34:00] peace in your happiness and sort of, you know, uh, sort of harmony with the Yeah.
[00:34:04] With this new world and everything. And I think like, uh, for me it's that idea where like, It, it's very empowering and reassuring that like, I think we saw so much more of like what's possible, like what we're capable of at like, sort of what our institutions and organizations Yeah. Can, you know, do to kind of support us and how we can support each other and all that.
[00:34:24] So I think, yeah, it's like a, it's a great. Primer in that regard, where like you could read it and be like, nah, I don't know if that would work here. Like maybe it's a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and like you can kind of remix and mash up, you know? Right. A lot of these ideas and just think through what, what's
[00:34:36] Kate Colbert: possible and what would work for you.
[00:34:37] I mean, that's one of the things we're finding as we're starting to talk to, um, different colleges and universities that are inviting us in to facilitate leadership programs or whatnot, as we're, we're finding out like, okay, well here's a concept that that was interesting to you that you heard about in our.
[00:34:52] What is the version of that that would work at your institution? So how, how would you customize that to work with your culture or the student population that you, you [00:35:00] serve? And by the way, how can you be serving different student populations? Right. So that's one of the things in the book that, um, we're getting a ton of feedback on right now is, you know, we have a chapter called Where did All the Students Go?
[00:35:09] Um, and we have watched, um, Sadly, but not surprisingly, um, since the release of the book four months ago, um, a lot of small, private liberal arts colleges, many of them religiously affiliated, announcing their closures. And, and when you take a look at the iPads data, you take a look at publicly available information from their audited financials and whatnot.
[00:35:28] None of these closures are surprised. They were all falling apart for the last 5, 8, 10 years. Um, some of them are blaming the pandemic, which I think is, um, unethical, um, on the parts of their leadership teams for many of these institutions. Um, you know, they, they used, um, you know, COVID Cares money and whatnot to float themselves through it.
[00:35:46] Um, and, and now they've run out of money. But, you know, it, it, it, it, yeah, it's been an interesting moment and you're absolutely right. Some people, and by the way, some people are gonna look at something cool in the book and. Why doesn't my institution do this kind of stuff? And, and [00:36:00] they may go fight for it or say that our leadership's never gonna let us do these things on behalf of students.
[00:36:05] And that may help them get clarity around what kind of institution they ought to be working for. Right. Are there talents, um, being, you know, Stifled at the current institution that they're working for. And I think that that's probably the case for a lot. But you were talking about graduate programs and um, we're having a lot of fun.
[00:36:21] So tons of people who are getting, uh, PhDs and Ed d degrees and higher education leadership are reaching out and saying, I just read the book. Um, I cited it and put it in my literature review for my dissertation. This is the only book that has like ever truly spoken to me. Like somebody who works in higher ed.
[00:36:37] So, um, I was just talking to the C H R O at, uh, Bellerman University and she's working on her PhD and she's like, this book explains like where we are and where we're headed in a way that nothing else in the curriculum is. So that of course is one of our big hopes is that higher education graduate programs will put commencement, um, in, in the curriculum.
[00:36:57] Um, I think it's important that they do, because like you said, [00:37:00] there are, I think there are plenty of things out there that are. Something very specific, you know, admission strategies or whatnot, or some sort of theoretical, you know, non-profit versus for-profit sort of, sort of arguments or whatnot. Um, but we've tried really hard to be comprehensive in this book in a way that no one else has done.
[00:37:17] And, um, and I do think that, um, I do think it's important, um, that people have that perspective if they're gonna be leading in higher.
[00:37:24] Dustin Ramsdell: As we wind down, are there other, uh, resources or things that you'd want to give kind of a tip of the hat to, um, that maybe were helpful references or just other stuff that's kind of grabbing your attention right now, um, that we can include
[00:37:35] Kate Colbert: in the show?
[00:37:35] Yeah, well, I mean, I would say the conversation continues, um, the Ed Up Experience podcast, so you know, E D U P, the ED Up Experience podcast. Um, so I, I. Strongly encourage people to subscribe so that you can continue to hear these conversations happening in real time, releasing multiple episodes every week.
[00:37:52] And so I think that that's an important conversation. I think there's really important conversations happening on LinkedIn right now among higher education professionals. I get. [00:38:00] Tagged every day in probably a dozen, you know, things, whether it's an announcement about a president being asked to step down or it's an announcement about, um, you know, a merger acquisition or, you know, interesting, um, data happening.
[00:38:11] So the conversations, um, among higher ed professionals on LinkedIn, I think are. More active and more fascinating now than they ever have been, um, just in the last, you know, six to 12 months. So I would say people should be spending time there. And if you're interested in who's talking about these sort of more, um, you know, innovative, interesting issues in higher education, a good way to sort of see who, what media is covering.
[00:38:33] That is if you go to the website for the book commencement, the book.com, there is a button at the top called Media Mentions, and you can get all of the. Television appearances and you know, after this one drops, um, it will, you'll be right there Dustin, um, with the rest of 'em. Um, so that might be a good way to say where's, you know, a couple dozen places where interesting conversations about higher ed and its future are happening.
[00:38:56] Um, and, um, we've, we've collected all of those media appearances on our [00:39:00] website so that those are probably good places.
[00:39:03] Dustin Ramsdell: Appreciate that. Just a final thought or a call to action, uh, that you wanna share in this topic. To end the episode, you
[00:39:10] Kate Colbert: have a lot of control, even though this feels like an uncontrollable moment and there's a huge opportunity, and I would remind you that the biggest mistake that we can make, um, is.
[00:39:20] Operating for the era in which we were founded instead of the era in which we exist. Um, and so we need to stop patting ourselves on the backs about saying, but we're a 200 year old institution. We can't keep running like one, or we're gonna be a 200 year old institution that closes. And so there are huge opportunities and, um, I hope that you feel empowered and supported and validated, um, in all that you're doing and would love for people to keep in touch with us.
[00:39:44] So please connect with me and Joe Sucio on LinkedIn is the easiest place to find us. You can pick up your copy of commencement, the beginning of a new era in higher education on Amazon, and please invite us to your campus. So we're spending a lot of time talking to higher education [00:40:00] employees about, um, what we learned, um, and how they might be able to apply it to their, their jobs.
[00:40:05] And so we'd be happy to come to your campus, physically or virtually to keep the conversation.
[00:40:11] Dustin Ramsdell: You can't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. Like, cause I'm starting to see like, I think just an acknowledgement where like, you know, higher ahead has just been able to sort of like coast for a while where it's just like you've built it.
[00:40:22] That is how people sort of like gain the credential to uplift their life. And it's like, okay, so like for those like 200 years is the first time that like there's institutions really needing to kind of. You know, kind of reckon with, you know, the diversity of ways that people can sort of, you know, become more gainfully employed and all that.
[00:40:38] So I think, yeah, just trying to, uh, you know, find the inspiration, have the conversations, and like do the work of figuring out how you and your institution and its history and its people and the way that, like how are you gonna kind of navigate all that because it is gonna look different. Like, cause I think it's refreshing.
[00:40:56] Sort of with these sort of calls to action, like, you know, higher ed is such a like, [00:41:00] you know, show and tell collaborative, like, you know, there's a network approach in the, in the, in the space more so maybe than other places. So like, that's really great, but like, it is gonna be, you know, trying to take that morsel of an idea and how do you sort of, you know, again, kind of remix and mash it up, you know, like make it sort of, uh, applicable to your, uh, kind of environment, your constituents or the constituents that you want and need to serve.
[00:41:22] And those sort of.
[00:41:24] Kate Colbert: You know, what you're getting at, I think is, is very true that colleges and universities do still have an opportunity, um, to serve particular niches, to do things the way they do them uniquely, right? So, you know, unity Environmental University in Maine, right? They really sort of focused, um, on environmental programs and, um, you know, being carbon net neutral themselves as an institution and all these things, right?
[00:41:45] Or there's you, you take a look at an institution like Babson College where you can major in a lot of different things. Everything that you do at that institution has this sort underpinning around entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial thinking. And so different [00:42:00] institutions have different ways of going about it.
[00:42:01] Um, and in the book, we actually have a whole bunch of quizzes to help people figure out like, Okay, so if we used to serve traditional 18 year olds who came to us full-time to live on a campus for a coming of age college experience to learn how to make friends and, and do laundry and, and learn to learn, um, we know there's not enough of them anymore because of the birth birthright decline.
[00:42:22] Who are all these other, um, audiences and, and learner populations that Kate and Joe talk about in the book that might be the right population? I, I talk to people all the time. Who totally missed the news that that incarcerated individuals are now pe. So, and when you think about that, that's really important.
[00:42:41] 85% of people who are in jail right now will get out and will go back cuz most of those are short sentences will go back to the workforce. And there's an opportunity for colleges and universities of all stripes, um, that have online learning capabilities to be able to educate those. Members of our society.
[00:42:59] [00:43:00] So, and, and by the way, the federal government, um, will fund that with Pell Grants so that, you know, there is funding for that. And so there's just so many, you know, and, and I can't stop talking about the 39 million Americans who have some college and no degree. And is there something, um, that they're looking to learn to level up reskill, you know, upskill in their career?
[00:43:19] And how do we do that and know it doesn't have to be a degree.
[00:43:21] Dustin Ramsdell: Take this as an inspiring call to action. This sort of, uh, sort of, uh, you know, laying the groundwork here and exploring all the context and, you know, this book as sort of a, you know, a, uh, you know, roadmap of the, of the paths that have been shredded that you can follow and divert from, and sort of, you know, go all in between and, you know, you know, obviously like the folks that you can look to for, you know, continued inspiration and certainly, you know, you and Joe, uh, you know, making yourselves available as well.
[00:43:46] So just, uh, appreciate again, you. You know, the whole team of folks that helped put this together and for you to jump on to be on the podcast, talk all about everything. Just really appreciate, appreciate your time. Uh, and yes, go, go find commencement. [00:44:00] Go check out that book. It is great. But yeah, thank you
[00:44:02] Kate Colbert: so much, Kate.
[00:44:02] Thanks so much Justin. Appreciate it.
[00:44:09] Hey all. Zack here from Enrollify. If you like this podcast, chances are you'll like other enrollify shows. Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam-packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional.
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About the Episode
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Our guest for this week’s episode is Kate Colbert, a marketing consultant and author of the recently released book, Commencement: The Beginning of a New Era for Higher Education.
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About the Podcast
Dustin Ramsdell is a Higher EdTech content creator and influencer who aims to drive meaningful conversations with top leaders in the field. His show, The Higher Ed Geek Podcast, explores all the nuances of higher education, with a focus on innovative technology and practices from his fellow professionals. Dustin also currently works as the Community Engagement Lead at Pathify. He loves craft beer, good pizza, and sustainability. Dustin lives happily in Delaware with his wife, Jenn, their daughter, Ellie.
A former higher-education insider and current world-renowned marketing expert, Kate Colbert develops college-and-university brand stories that are meaningful to the prospective student and measurable on the institutional balance sheet. She has overseen brand and enrollment marketing, public relations, and alumni relations at two Chicago-area graduate schools. She authored the 2018 bestselling book Think Like a Marketer: How a Shift in Mindset Can Change Everything for Your Business. She has also served as a faculty member at Illinois State University, the College of Lake County, Loyola University Chicago, and Lake Forest Graduate School of Management.
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