Passion & Purpose: The Heart of Employer Branding in Higher Education

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Jaime Hunt: Hi, I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make. I have secretly been a fan of the guests that we have for this episode for actually a really long time. When I was at Winston Salem State, he was at Dillard University and he had a blog and he had a Twitter feed that was full of just awesome gems about marketing HBCUs.

[00:00:24] That's not what we're going to talk about today, although we do tangentially touch on that topic. But today we're going to be talking a little bit about employer branding, which is something that I think that as higher ed marketers, we need to be thinking more about how we can support the employer brand of our institution.

[00:00:40] So today's guest is Eddie Francis, who's an award winning broadcaster, a brand strategist, and an amazing public speaker. From New Orleans, he's the founder and principal of Edify Ventures, a brand strategy and event company, and he also produces and hosts. not one, but two podcasts. [00:01:00] One is for our edification, which I absolutely love the dad joke in that.

[00:01:05] And that focuses on personal leadership. And his other podcast is right here on the enrollify network. And it is, I want to work there. And it is an employer branding podcast that focuses on colleges and universities. So I hope you enjoyed this absolutely amazing conversation. We had so much fun and I hope you have as much fun as we do.

[00:01:30] Welcome to Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO, the podcast designed for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jamie Hunt, and I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration. With Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO, I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive into the challenges Cheers.

[00:01:53] and joys we all face in higher education marketing. After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by [00:02:00] using the hashtag higher ed CMO. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at at Jamie Hunt IMC. That's J A I M E H U N T I M C.

[00:02:23] Hey, Eddie, how 

[00:02:24] Eddie Francis: are you? I am doing really well, Jamie. How are you? I am 

[00:02:29] Jaime Hunt: doing great. For those listeners who've been following the saga of my quest to find an AVP, I don't know if I want to jinx it, but I finally found one. So, so life is good here in Norfolk, Virginia. You know, you're in New Orleans. Did you get any impacts from the hurricane that came through?

[00:02:46] Eddie Francis: I did. No, we did not. We actually had some, we had like a little rain here and there, but no, we were spared, so we didn't do anything, but all my thoughts to the folks in Florida, because I do know some folks in that part of the country who were [00:03:00] affected, so all my thoughts to them, definitely. 

[00:03:02] Jaime Hunt: Absolutely.

[00:03:04] Totally agree. So Eddie, let's just jump right in. Tell us a little bit about your higher ed 

[00:03:09] Eddie Francis: journey. My, you know what, Jamie, I've listened to your podcast so much. And every time somebody answers this question, it sounds something like this. Well, higher ed kind of found me,

[00:03:25] so I just want to say that I'm maintaining the consistency of that story. 

[00:03:31] Jaime Hunt: Episode 37, same thing, same guest issue. 

[00:03:36] Eddie Francis: Exactly. But no, I mean, really it, I was actually working in career development. I was working. For a division of monster. com called making account programs. And I actually had a buddy who was working in higher ed.

[00:03:49] He was the chief of staff and a position opened up for a PR director. And he, he comes to me and he goes, Hey man, I think you can do this. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he goes, [00:04:00] no, we need a certain type of temperament. We need a certain type of attitude. You have it. You can do it. It's not a very high.

[00:04:07] Don't let the title scare you. It's not a very high demand. And so I started off as the director of public relations at Southern University of New Orleans in, uh, 2007. And I go into this director position at 37 years old. And, you know, I'm, I'm a little nervous about this. The interesting thing about it though, was that it was a couple of years after hurricane Katrina.

[00:04:29] So my interview was actually in a FEMA trailer. Oh my God. Yeah, the entire university was operating out of FEMA trailers. And so I go in and I think that was part of what he understood about me. He knew that I was going to go in and not even see the trailers. He knew I was going to go in and see the job.

[00:04:50] And that's exactly what happened, you know, and this was. It is funny. I mean, it was a PR job, but it was how I got introduced to marketing [00:05:00] as well, because, you know, was an institution at the time that was, um, open admission for about 50 years. And so Sunu never necessarily had to sell itself, but it was about to adopt an admissions policy.

[00:05:15] And so now Sunu was in a position of having to compete. And so I started looking at some of the. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. You know, we don't necessarily have brand assets and that sort of thing. And so I wound up being the first PR director to actually create a brand identity for Suno, including brand guidelines.

[00:05:39] The cool thing about that, Jamie, is that I actually, you know, I did all these focus group discussions to figure out what the logo should look, look like, and all these, all this other stuff. And I left New Orleans for a little bit, went back, came back to New Orleans. And I'm passing by Suno one day and these new buildings are up at Suno.

[00:05:56] And I knew that these buildings were coming, but I looked up at one of the [00:06:00] buildings and the logo that I created was at the top of one of the buildings. And I was like, what? I was like, I did that. I did that. 

[00:06:09] Jaime Hunt: That's a good feeling, right? It 

[00:06:10] Eddie Francis: was an awesome feeling. I mean, it was so cool. And, but the other thing, you know, about that's significant about my journey was this is when I got an opportunity to see higher ed from a state institution standpoint, and so.

[00:06:25] At some point, I had to get involved in politics because what happened was that the Louisiana legislature, one of the legislators put forth a bill to actually move the University of New Orleans from the LSU system to the University of Louisiana system. Somehow, Suno made it into the bill to be removed.

[00:06:46] From the Southern University system to go to the University of Louisiana system. And honestly, effectively what that would have happened is that would have shut Suno down. So I actually got with the Southern University system [00:07:00] president at the time was a guy by the name of Ron Mason. He and I got together.

[00:07:04] We created a PR plan and we were able to put a plan in place so that Sunil got removed from that bill and stayed in the Southern University system. And get this, okay, so this was 2011. In 2010, I started Sunil's Twitter account and so I was one of the early adopters, I think. Of higher ed being on Twitter.

[00:07:27] And I remember people asking me, it was like, why would you put a university on this Twitter thing? What's wrong with you? And I'm going, no, just see how this works. Watch, watch, watch, watch, watch. Well, in one of the, one of the things that was going on was that a lot of the alumni and a lot of folks didn't really understand what was going on with this bill.

[00:07:45] And so. I actually used one of the most useful features of Twitter at the time. I would, I would actually take a look at the committee meetings, the legislative committee meetings, where a lot of major decisions were being [00:08:00] made, appropriations, education, and I live tweeted from those meetings. And I would have, I had alumni, I had students coming up to me saying, I didn't understand what was going on, but I was looking at Twitter all day long, all through the meeting and now I get it.

[00:08:17] Thank you so much for keeping us informed about this bill and what's happening and what we need to do. I mean, actually leverage Twitter to get a right, a letter writing campaign started. And then I also was able to galvanize the national HBCU community behind Suno. And I don't know if you know Jared Carter, who did HBCU Digest.

[00:08:37] Jaime Hunt: Yes, yep, absolutely. I talk to him a lot of 

[00:08:40] Eddie Francis: times. There you go. So Jared started the hashtag Save Suno. And that just, that spread like wildfire and that really had a lot to do and it played a lot into our plan. So that was a huge part of my hiring journey. The second big thing that happened, you know, I actually got recruited from Suno because of all of that [00:09:00] good stuff.

[00:09:00] Jared was a part of that recruitment. Actually, he actually facilitated a conversation. But later on, you know, I went to Dallas, came back to new Orleans, started at Dillard university, really wanted to be a Dillard because of Walter Kimbrough, the hip hop press, a guy named Mark Barnes, who was the, then he was the vice president of institutional advancement.

[00:09:19] I knew her from high school. I knew he was really great at his job. I knew he would be my boss. And I'm like, yeah, Mark, I want to work on the mark. And then also his wife, Kiki Baker Barnes, who is, who was the. She was actually the director of athletics at Dillard, just an outstanding athletic administrator.

[00:09:37] And Kiki would joke with me all the time. When I was at Suno, she would say, Eddie, come to Dillard. Cause you wouldn't make it the A team if you came to Dillard. And so I was just chomping at the bit to work there. So I got that great opportunity to work there and at Dillard, I lean more into the marketing side of the house.

[00:09:55] That's actually how I got involved with AMA. I did. a self imposed professional [00:10:00] development project. Then I joined the American Marketing Association and I was able to, you know, I had the privilege during this journey to work with Ology because, you know, they worked with Diller to do a brand evolution campaign, as I call it, I call it brand evolution, the write your legacy campaign.

[00:10:19] And then The other big thing that I'm really, really proud of is that there was this opportunity to expand Dillard's licensing opportunities. And so Sam's Sam's was doing this big old thing with HBCUs and it didn't cost a thing to get in the program. And I'm sitting there like, what do we have to lose?

[00:10:37] We have nothing to lose here. So all of a sudden a bunch of Dillard licensed merchandise popped up in Sam's. The alumni went nuts. They bought it all off the shelf. I mean, we could not keep merchandise on the shelf and it put a little pocket change in the university's pocket. So that's what the higher ed journeys look like.

[00:10:57] Since I left Dillard, I've really had this interest in [00:11:00] expanding employer branding when it comes to colleges and universities. So, you know, I started my little shop at a five ventures to, to address that, but yeah, that's, that's what the journey has looked like.

[00:11:13] Jaime Hunt: Hey all, I hope you're enjoying this episode of confessions of a higher ed CMO. I want to take a moment to thank my friends at Mindpower who are making season two of this Involify podcast possible. Mindpower is a full service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly 30 years of needle moving, thought provoking, research fueled creative and strategy.

[00:11:34] Mindpower is woman founded and owned, WBENC certified, nationally recognized. and serves the social sector, higher education, healthcare, nonprofits, and more. The Mindpower team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experienced creators. From market research, to brand campaigns, to recruitment, to fundraising, the agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward.[00:12:00] 

[00:12:00] You can learn more about their work in the world by heading on over to Mindpower, Inc. That's M I N D P O W E R I N C dot com. And be sure to tell the crew that Jamie sent you their way.

[00:12:14] And I think we've known each other for a while because I think we got connected on Twitter well before we got connected through AMA. And I was such a big fan of the work that Dillard was doing when I was at Winston Salem State and how you were kind of keeping your president in the forefront of conversation around HBCUs and their value and all of that.

[00:12:36] It was fantastic to see that work and it's been great to know you all these years and I am really, really curious and we've talked about this a little bit, not in this conversation, but you have a podcast that's dedicated entirely to employer branding. Why is that such a passion for you? 

[00:12:55] Eddie Francis: So I actually had, I had to pivot [00:13:00] at one point away from higher education and I did, I really hated that I pivoted that I had to pivot at that time, but it was great because I wound up pivoting into talent acquisition.

[00:13:14] And when I did that, I had a great mentor by the name of Leslie Regalado in Dallas. And one of the things that I learned, you know. Working with her and working under her because talent acquisition taught me. To view finding the right people as a vital part of an organization meeting is business goals.

[00:13:38] We say all the time, you know, you got to find the right people. I think when people though, when it comes to the recruitment process, especially in higher ed, I think people get lost in the sauce. At some point they start constant. They start getting, they start focusing on the wrong things. And it's easy because, you know, you start looking at all these resumes and you start [00:14:00] looking and then you start interviewing people.

[00:14:02] And one thing, you know, I, I saw this recruiter post, he, he, this recruiter posted this one day. I can't remember if it was on LinkedIn or X. I can't remember. I'm actually calling it X now anyway, but it's been a transition. But, you know, this recruiter said, you know, this is a hard pill to swallow, but a lot of people get jobs because they simply interview well.

[00:14:25] And higher ed makes that mistake often. You know, somebody will sit there and do the song and dance and they'll soft shoe, and then they'll throw some really nice, cool, cute phrases out. And eventually somebody just goes, yes, this is our person and you're sitting there going, yeah, but they didn't. say anything.

[00:14:46] And but they just get wowed by the performance. And so, you know, when I got back in higher ed. It was really interesting after working in talent acquisition. I started to think back to some of [00:15:00] the experiences I had. I actually had one experience on a search committee before I got in talent acquisition.

[00:15:06] And I just remember how frustrated I was because I didn't think anybody was. Focused on the candidate and what the candidates actually brought to the table. They really got distracted by a lot of things. And it's really interesting on, I want to work there. Episode two, Kevin McClure, you know, our friend, Kevin alluded to hire as pension to hire people and promote people based on institutional knowledge, you know, not necessarily the skillset that they bring to the table.

[00:15:35] And I would add to that, that. A lot of people will take a look at candidates based on their credentials and then they'll let their biases creep in and that's how people get jobs or simply they'll hire a friend and that's how people get jobs. And so you combine that with this talent crisis that higher ed is going through and, you know, [00:16:00] I just really, really started having this.

[00:16:03] This burn to just talk more about it. And so when, when Zach and I talked about, you know, rolling out a podcast on enrollify, you know, he's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to talk about employee Brandon. I was like, can I talk about it for a season? I don't know. But I think I can, because there's so many problems.

[00:16:23] And so, you know, Jamie, that's how I came up with this idea of really, really wanting to dedicate an entire podcast. And I realized that I didn't necessarily have to talk about employer branding. I realized that every episode, there had to be a piece that fit into the employer branding puzzle. And so, yeah, that, that's how I came up with it.

[00:16:43] And it's been one heck of a season so far. There've been some really interesting episodes. 

[00:16:48] Jaime Hunt: You've had some fantastic, fantastic guests and I've really enjoyed the show so far. And I think as somebody who's done a lot of hiring over the last year and will probably be doing a lot of hiring over the next year, it's been [00:17:00] really, really helpful.

[00:17:01] But on a bigger picture scale, when I think about the efforts that I make to make the university seem attractive to prospective employees and make my division seem attractive and, you know, make sure that when we have somebody coming to campus, we are really selling what our vision is and getting people excited behind that.

[00:17:20] But I'm, I'm curious when you look at it from a bigger scale, when you look at it from an institution wide perspective, why should higher ed marketers be invested in employer branding? Why should we not just let HR?

[00:17:37] Eddie Francis: I love the way you threw that last part in there. Why should we just not let HR do it? So, you know, higher ed marketers, one of the things about higher ed marketers that I think is so underestimated is the expertise authority that higher ed marketers have, you know, there's, there's this command that higher ed marketers have of understanding, you [00:18:00] know, The four P's.

[00:18:01] First of all, I mean, just understanding that you have to have this products are in the case of higher ed, you have this service, but then being able to look at all these other elements about how that is, how that institution or how that school of that institution performs in the market. Well, a big part of that.

[00:18:20] Well, the people that you have running it, right. Then so I, and so marketers, I think are in this great, unique position to not only take a look at the brand, not only take a look at the voice of the institution, but who actually is responsible for that stuff. And it's also, I really do believe that.

[00:18:40] Marketing and HR working together is really, I think it's a great union. I think is if, if you can get it to work, it works extremely well. And as somebody who's been on both sides, I see where both play together really, really well. When I was at Dillard, I had a great [00:19:00] relationship with the HR director. And, and she and I would just, we would just sit in our office and we would just start cooking stuff up.

[00:19:07] But it was, but we also had some really good conversations about. Man, we really need to amplify the value of this experience. You know, we need to really amplify the voices of the people here. She had one of the most important things that anyone could have, and she had the data, right? And I'm sitting there going, okay.

[00:19:29] W this is what we can do with this. And so I think for hiring marketers, you know, there's that first piece. You have that expertise, authority about brand and about voice, and then being able to bring people into the mix about how they represent the brand and the voice of the institution. But here's, here's the thing.

[00:19:48] This is where it gives fun. I mean, higher ed also has a built-in fan appeal, right? I mean, a lot of people. We'll work at a particular institution because they are fans of the place. How many times have [00:20:00] you yourself probably said, Oh man, Oh man, if I could work there, you know, or you see something or you, you meet that president or you meet that fundraiser or you meet that certain person.

[00:20:11] And I gotta say, you know, you know, my, my Kimbrough, he had that, he had that effect on people everywhere. He went, people said, I want to work for him. Everywhere he went. And so you have this built in fan appeal that as a marketer, you can leverage, you know, colleges and universities, they are small cities, just buzzing with all kinds of activity.

[00:20:34] And I think for me, it's sometimes I know faculty can be really difficult, but other times. I love faculty because they are so colorful and so you, and so you're just like, okay, all right. I know, I know this history professor is really cantankerous, but man, if we can get him going, this is going to be a hilarious interview.

[00:20:57] You know, so you start thinking about things like that. [00:21:00] And I think the other thing for marketers that's really a good and really lends to employee branding is that colleges and universities are huge economic drivers for their communities. And to be able to tell the stories of the. People who are behind that, that economic drive, you know, and then of course you have in parts of the university, you have a lot of job security.

[00:21:20] Well, you know, a lot of folks have job security in a lot of parts. So then you get these voices of people. Who have been there for a while. They know every nook and cranny of the institution and they get to tell some really cool stories themselves. Sometimes you got to kind of stop them because it's like, all right, we need to know where all the bodies are buried, but you, but you do, but you do get that, you get that, that, that extra texture there and, and I think these all make for great tools to attract great candidates to colleges and universities.

[00:21:50] And the thing is, is that if you have these folks who. If they get to this college and they are enjoying the experience, they [00:22:00] feel fulfilled by the experience. They become such brand ambassadors. I mean, it's like brand ambassadors that you just can't even begin to pay for. That was, you know, I had the funniest conversation with a good friend of mine who actually was working at an institution that was the rival to his alma mater right across town.

[00:22:20] Jaime Hunt: Oh God, I don't know how you do that, to be honest with you. It, 

[00:22:24] Eddie Francis: it, so it was so funny because, you know, so I'm talking to him and he's like, man, you know, and he's a poli sci professor and he is hilarious. He goes, man, Danny, man, I, I love working here, man. They don't bother me. You know. Is, is the students. I love the students and, and we got a great president.

[00:22:41] I love this place, man. I'm never leaving. I'm never leaving . And, and what happened is that carried over to his social media because on his social media, he was always talking about what a great time he had. He was like, oh man, lunch today was red beans and rice Monday. Man, oh man, they, we do the [00:23:00] best red beans and rice in town.

[00:23:01] I mean, he was always amplifying. This really fun part and a fun academic part of the institution. He would always, you know, amplify that there was a great debate in class. He would always talk about his students who graduated and went on to do A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. And I'm sitting here going like, this dude is a marketing machine.

[00:23:24] And 

[00:23:26] Jaime Hunt: he doesn't even 

[00:23:26] Eddie Francis: know it. And he, yeah. And I mean, and it was just so interesting. And. And talking to him, I was like, you know, he is a really good case for turning your rivals into fans. I'm like, how do you do that? So, yeah, it is. So I think, I think marketers, I think hiring marketers. Have a lot of tools.

[00:23:45] And so with all of these tools, higher marketers can really figure out how to leverage all of this stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, and this is something that I talk about in every episode, you know, as I end the episode with this question, [00:24:00] like about how do you turn these employees into your brand ambassadors?

[00:24:04] And so, yeah, I think higher ed marketers have a lot of tools at their disposal to do it through the employees. 

[00:24:11] Jaime Hunt: Oh, absolutely. When I was at Winston Salem State, we launched a brand ambassador program, and that's who we started with. We got our about 12 most passionate employees and did these hand, you know, individualized, personalized invitations, inviting them to a special session where we talked to them about, you know, how much we value them and appreciate them and appreciate their enthusiasm for the university that we want to empower them to tell the story more broadly.

[00:24:41] 100 percent of those people accepted the invitation to become brand ambassadors and 100 percent of them were so excited about talking about the WSSU story. They were always asking me for like, do you have a PowerPoint that I could use? So I'm going to go speak to my son's high school or, you know, fill in the blank.[00:25:00] 

[00:25:00] And it was so fantastic to harness their passion for the university in that way. And I think there's something magical about that. I think when you have people who. Work there loving their workplace because a lot of times what you hear people is like grumble grumble grumble about their Right, right, but instead they're like I love working here versus oh man, I hate this place or whatever, you know They're going to tell their neighbors that it's going to become infectious.

[00:25:34] Yeah. So I think there's so much to that. And I'm really curious from your perspective, what are some of those key elements that contribute to a successful employer brand strategy? 

[00:25:45] Eddie Francis: So, so let's well, let's start with this assumption, let's start with the assumption that the budget won't get any better.

[00:25:51] Okay, so. That's a good 

[00:25:55] Jaime Hunt: assumption, 

[00:25:56] Eddie Francis: honestly. Yeah, I mean, because more pay always helps, [00:26:00] but, but assuming that your budget won't get any bigger. I mean, the first thing is, and you know, I alluded to this when I talked about, uh, The HR director at Dillard who I would sit with, but is having the the HR data. I mean, that's that is really honestly to me the biggest thing that is the biggest element just having the data sitting there knowing that knowing what the faculty and staff value, but then also What would make them walk away?

[00:26:28] You know what, I mean, having the data to really measure employee satisfaction. And, and I think, you know, that whole, what would make people walk away, you know, if there's any administrator listening to this, and I'm really hoping that there is an administrator listening to this, I really need higher ed to get out of this thing of.

[00:26:46] Well, they're replaceable. Hopefully this talent, hopefully this talent crisis has taught you people are not as easily replaceable as they seem to be. Right. And so, and the other thing is that disgruntled employees talk [00:27:00] and they don't just talk to, look, gone are the days. If, if you started working at your institution in 1991, it is no longer 1991 is not people getting on a phone with one another is people.

[00:27:12] Getting on social media is people getting in Facebook groups is people trashing you on glass door is people going to all of these different places. So, you know, you have got to really embrace what that data tell you about employee satisfaction. So that's one element of. Second element, professional development opportunities, train your faculty and staff to be recruitable.

[00:27:37] So Sean Payton, who's now the coach of the Denver Broncos and took my beloved new Orleans saints to the super bowl, had a really interesting comment that he made in a talk he did once. And he talked about the fact that every time a team wins a championship, all these other teams come and raid the coaching staff, you know, they, they raid the rosters [00:28:00] and he said.

[00:28:02] If you have people that nobody else wants, you got a problem. And I think people need to think about that. If some, if you have somebody on your team who people want, don't a lot of, a lot of colleges and universities turn that into, Oh goodness. Oh goodness. No. No, you have a winner. So if you have a winner, figure out how to keep that person winning.

[00:28:31] And even if it comes to the point where that person says, Hey, listen, you know, I got another offer and I really want to blah, blah, blah, send them away, wishing they never left that. I think that is a huge thing I had, you know, Jamie, on my last team, I have four millennials. And I had three of those millennials who were on the younger end of the, of that generation.

[00:28:55] And I had a very frank discussion with all three of them saying, Hey, listen, you are [00:29:00] early in your career. I don't expect you to stick around here for the next 10, 20 years. I know I'm on borrowed time with you. I know it. So what can I do to number one, make this situation work for you? And number two, by the time you walk away, what can I do to get you ready for your next opportunity?

[00:29:17] Because you're going to leave. I know it. And so that really bought me a lot of loyalty. But then also, you know, now that it's all said and done and I've walked away from that situation. You know, I've actually had conversations with a couple of them who have also left. And they said, and they've said, Eddie, thank you.

[00:29:39] Thank you for putting me in the mindset of looking at my next opportunity. Cause I wasn't going to be there for a very long time. And so part of that was developing them as much as I possibly could, even if I couldn't pay for professional development, just being, being whatever kind of teacher I could be to them.

[00:29:58] And I really do think [00:30:00] that a third element. That is really important is having trained leaders, and that can be a huge asset to your employer brand. Now you'll hear people say, and I've seen a lot of recruiters post this, you know, people don't quit jobs. They quit bad leadership. And yeah. And people who understand leadership as, as a people management function, you know, they also can manage change a lot of times, you know, I did this informal.

[00:30:30] I looked at over 30 articles cause I got really curious one day about what some of the biggest leadership change challenges are. So I looked at over 30 articles. I did a little informal survey, put it up on social media. So what do you think of some of the big challenges, Jamie, the number one challenge that people find in leadership.

[00:30:47] And that's what a lot of these articles said is managing change. The other challenge that they mentioned, it was, there was actually a tie based on how I collected my data. There was a [00:31:00] tie between inspiring people and recruitment as big leadership challenges. And then another leadership challenge, another big one was communication skills.

[00:31:09] And so. I think another way to really boost a great, to boost a great employer brand is to train people to be great leaders. I don't see enough of it at colleges and universities. And I think that colleges and universities should be honestly leadership training machines. And so, yeah, so I think those are some of the elements.

[00:31:30] Yeah. Yeah. I 

[00:31:31] Jaime Hunt: mean, we have faculty, we have programs, leadership development programs. That we don't give to our own employees. We don't tap into that expertise, but then at the same time, I think there's a lot of leaders who just aren't interested in growing. I was at a previous institution where we were all given the opportunity to take an executive leadership coursework and we were.

[00:31:57] told it was required, but apparently wasn't because I [00:32:00] was the only member of that cabinet that actually did that executive leadership training. And to me, it was like, I had to shift my mentality from a director level thinking to an executive level thinking, right? It's like lifting up from 5, 000 feet to 15, 000 feet.

[00:32:16] It's about. coaching, mentoring, inspiring, having a vision, how do you take people along on the journey and all of that, and then how do you deal with some of those big challenges, and I just feel like that should be required. You should have a training that's appropriate for being a supervisor, a training that's appropriately for making that step up to director.

[00:32:37] And then that executive level training and every president should get that 

[00:32:42] Eddie Francis: training. Absolutely for every pre and, you know, and there's, there's a part of leadership studies that is being explored even more now called followership and, and in followership, what you have the opportunity to do is you have the opportunity to figure out how people follow, what are the behaviors [00:33:00] that contribute to how they respond to leaders.

[00:33:03] And so I think that is a huge part and I actually used a lot of that When I was a director so I was able to pinpoint You know, why a certain person on a team would behave a certain way. And of course I would ask them, you know, I would talk to him, you know, which a lot of people, they don't even ask, you know, they just let somebody, they let somebody just do whatever they do.

[00:33:27] But I do think that their leadership studies is a really. Is becoming, is developing very quickly. And one of the things that has changed leadership studies that really, really feeds into figuring out how to increase employee satisfaction is recognizing that leadership has changed so much because we live in so much more diverse communities.

[00:33:52] Richly diverse communities. I mean, you were at an HBCU, I was at three HBCUs and one of the, and you know, this as well as I do that. [00:34:00] One of the fallacies about HBCUs is that they're not diverse environments. They are extremely diverse environments. And so a leader just can't walk in and say, I'm going to do it this way.

[00:34:10] They really have to get to know the people who were there so that they can lead effectively and they have to know that those people are going to respond to how. They lead, they're going to respond to behaviors. They're going to respond to decision making and you just can't write it off as, oh, this person just isn't with the program.

[00:34:28] No, they're responding to you. So you need to figure out what they're responding to. And so I do think that that's a crucial element of really establishing a great employer brand is really being able to train people to be effective leaders. 

[00:34:46] Jaime Hunt: 100%. And if you as a leader are not adapting your leadership style to the people who are following you, you're making a big mistake.

[00:34:55] You cannot expect your employees to all [00:35:00] just pivot to your preferred style of doing things. 

[00:35:04] Eddie Francis: It's not going to happen. It's not I mean, if anything, I mean, Jamie, listen, I've seen this at three institutions. If anything, you're going to get saboteurs, if anything. And listen, of the three institutions, two in New Orleans, New Orleanians are very creative about how they sabotage things.

[00:35:22] Okay. Very creative. I mean, when I tell you, it's like, they say in hip hop, the streets is talking. Like when the streets start talking to New Orleans, the streets talk very, very loud, and that even filters into the higher ed space because people will run you out of this city. Okay. They will run you flat out

[00:35:42] And so yeah, I think you do have to figure out how you're going to adjust. And one of the thi one, you know, one of the stories that I heard about one president was that people couldn't stand him when he got to his particular institution. By the time he left, people loved him. [00:36:00] And one of the reasons people loved him is that he started talking to people on campus and he started figuring out what people didn't like about him.

[00:36:09] And so he adjusted. And by the time he left, he was a hero, you know, but if you ask people who were there in his first, second year, they're like, Oh, he was horrible. I don't know why people like him so much. So, you know, so I mean, kudos to every leader at every level of an institution who sees that Leadership is a people thing, and they make the necessary adjustments, not to win people's loyalty, but to make sure everybody has a level of employee satisfaction.

[00:36:39] Jaime Hunt: A hundred percent. If you are so arrogant that you think that it's just okay that everybody thinks you're terrible and doing a terrible job. Like that's, I'm the leader and it doesn't matter if people think I'm doing a terrible job. It's going to come back to bite you in the end, like a hundred percent.

[00:36:56] So you mentioned a little bit leading millennials, and I [00:37:00] think we know that millennials and I think Gen Z perhaps even more really value that purpose driven work. Like they want to believe in what they're doing in their jobs. So how can an employer brand kind of sell? The social responsibility of an institution or sell that mission driven work.

[00:37:19] Eddie Francis: I think on a campus, again, leaders at every level, whether you're talking directors, managers, you're talking about vice presidents, associate vice president, assistant vice president, deans, department chairs, or whoever, the behaviors have to be consistent with the institutional core values and mission. It has to start right there because You know, again, yeah, you're right.

[00:37:43] I had that millennial in my office who said, I don't think this institution believes, I don't think it believes itself. And she called it out numerous times. And, you know, it was a conversation every time. And the, and the thing I was very careful not to do. [00:38:00] was, was make her feel as if she was somehow wrong or something.

[00:38:04] Instead, my question was, okay, so why, what, what are you seeing that's making you feel this way? And she will call out some really specific things and she wasn't wrong about it. Right. So I, so leaders have to understand that. They have to be consistent going back to your, your last comment. I mean, if you, if your ego is so big that you think people can just get over it, then you are living in another century, literally, right?

[00:38:32] You really are. Employees have to trust that their values and their work also are being protected. And not just protected, but they have to trust that their values and their work are being amplified somehow. And I think millennials and Gen Z really, really want to know that they are seen. I mean, I think it's a very big deal for them.

[00:38:56] So amplifying it, being able to trust their leader [00:39:00] is a big thing. Communicate honestly with constituent groups about institutional values. Um, I think this, you know, right now we're in a politically charged time and my hats off to every president and chancellor around the country who has said, listen, this is what, this is what the environment is, but this is not what our institution is about and doggone it.

[00:39:19] I'm not going to stand for it. And this is how we are going to press on as an institution. There's a good chance that some of these presidents and chancellors who are speaking out are going to lose their jobs. And so. You know, I, I really appreciate that there are, uh, you know, institutional leaders around the country who are saying, these are our institutional values.

[00:39:40] This is why we do what we do. This is how we produce great people. And I am sticking to that. And then I think the other thing to go along with that is leaders have to be courageous about protecting their teams, giving a voice to the voiceless. That means a lot to Gen Z and the Millennials. I think Gen Xers, you know, we just kind of, we just kind of move on.

[00:39:59] We're [00:40:00] 

[00:40:00] Jaime Hunt: just like... We're middle 

[00:40:01] Eddie Francis: children. Yeah, yeah, you know, we're just like, jerk. And then that's it. We just move, we move on to the next thing. Millennials and Gen Z, being protected is really, really important. And they really have to know that you have their backs. Whenever they are either not wrong about something or if they are just flat out right.

[00:40:24] So I think, I think, you know, those are some of the, some of the things that, that I think can be done. And I think being able to express this in event, in, in a brand, being able to say, Hey, listen, we know we have this kind of person who works for our institution and this is what we do to protect the interests, the rights.

[00:40:45] The values, this is what we do to give them a voice, you know, whenever something is going wrong in society, this is how we make them whole whenever, when they come to work. I think being able to express all of those things [00:41:00] is obviously something they can do, but has to start internally. And it has to be an honest and authentic conversation because Gen Z and the millennials, they are not going to let you get away with an inauthentic, you know, conversation.

[00:41:12] That's not happening. If you stand in front of them and you don't mean it, they will sniff you out. And so you got to start honestly, internally, but then only after. You feel that that conversation is in an honest place. I think only after that can you go out and actually externally express it somehow.

[00:41:35] Jaime Hunt: That makes sense. That makes total sense. I mean, you have to have an authentic experience just like with regular branding or, you know, institutional branding. It has to align with the reality of what's happening. Are there any schools that are doing this well from your perspective? 

[00:41:50] Eddie Francis: I mean, you kind of stole my answer earlier because I was gonna, I was going to talk about the fact that your story from Winston Salem State is really a great story.

[00:41:59] [00:42:00] And I told you this during my podcast, you know, my wife was from Winston Salem and so, you know, she, she had this. Funny commentary when, when one day she goes, what's going on in Winston Salem State? Well, no, hold on. I have to say it the right way. What's going on with Salem State?

[00:42:19] You know, she goes, what's going on over there? I mean, people are like happy to work there. And then the fan base has grown and all that other stuff. And, and to me, that was a really big thing because I do remember about a decade ago, When they were having some real problems on that campus. And so, you know, my hats off to you for the work that you did, to Elwood Robinson for the work that he did and, and giving you the backing to do that.

[00:42:44] Another one, you know, I have to brag on episode four. That's an interview that I did with the Dean of Professional Advancement, Suri Deitch. And I think While they don't necessarily have a dedicated employer brand effort, I [00:43:00] think they did a really good job of leveraging a rebrand that they did. And Suri says something.

[00:43:07] During that interview that I absolutely love. I love this so much. I made it the title of the episode, but she said, you know, when we did our rebrand, we were able to get a team of ambitious builders. And I just thought that meant the world, you know, if you can get. people on your faculty and staff who want to build with you.

[00:43:30] And, you know, I'll say this Surrey didn't say this, but I'm a native New Orleanian. I remember when Tulane, when that unit was the university college, when it was the school of continuing studies, it didn't have a great reputation at the time. And so the work that. She came in and did, and her team did to rebrand and then to attract these ambitious builders, I think is very, very impressive.

[00:43:57] And they've been able to, you know, [00:44:00] get some really, really good people over there just by leveraging it. And by, and I think also by really. You know, practicing some inclusive behaviors that I know that they did internally is really a great story. And I would say that one thing I w I want people to take away from that though, is your story, SOPA, as it's called the Tulane SOPA story, there's this really big lesson.

[00:44:27] And helping faculty and staff see that they are part of the success story. Um, and then telling that story in a really intentional way. But if, if, if you can get faculty and staff to really be proud of what's happening because they see themselves in it, then I, I think you stand a chance to build a really, really cool employer brand.

[00:44:53] Jaime Hunt: I think that's so, so true. I was thinking about a time when I had an employee at a previous institution talk [00:45:00] about how he was not ashamed, but not proud of wearing his gear for the institution when he was home or around town on the weekends, because he was finding that people were asking him about.

[00:45:13] like the negative news stories that were happening on campus. And then we hired an absolutely phenomenal news and media relations person who really turned around the types of coverage that we were getting. And he was working in an environment where he was suddenly feeling like he was really heard and that he had it.

[00:45:29] opportunity to make an impact on what was happening on campus. And he said he was suddenly now sort of strutting with his stuff. He was going on walks and deliberately putting on his gear, you know, and hoping his friends would ask him about how it's going there. And What struck me about that is he said that was the first time that it happened in like 25 years that he'd been working there.

[00:45:50] And it was just little things, right, that made him puff his chest out and wear his gear and wear his cap and be proud of the institution he worked for. [00:46:00] And I just love that idea of being so connected to the mission and feeling, to your point earlier, that you have a voice and you have um, a purpose in What makes that institution work?

[00:46:13] I absolutely love that. I'm reticent to ask you this next question. You can tell me you don't want to answer it, but who's doing a bad job of employer branding? 

[00:46:24] Eddie Francis: You know what? So I don't, I mean, I wouldn't name an institution anyway, but I would say any instance, let me just say this, any institution that puts.

[00:46:34] Any institution that puts stock photos on the HR page is doing a bad job. Okay. I, and I'm so dead serious about that. And this really goes back to that last answer, because not only do people have to figuratively see themselves in a success, but they have to see themselves in a success, you know, one of the things that.

[00:46:56] I think really helped a morale when, [00:47:00] especially when I was at Dillard and when I was a Suno and I did this in both places is I would get these really cool pictures of employees doing stuff like dancing at some kind of function or, you know, just employees laughing with one another genuine moments, genuine moments.

[00:47:18] And. When that stuff went on the website, Jamie, it was always, Oh, Eddie, you got me. You got me, but that looks so cool. Thank you so much. And then it turned into a, when am I going to be on a homepage? So, you know, it, it really turned into that, but, but they really, really do have to see themselves. So when you put stock photos up there, it it

[00:47:42] defeats the purpose a little bit. And I think also. I think, I think, I think institutions that do a bad job, employee branding are institutions that will hire leaders. And you alluded to this who make themselves the story [00:48:00] because the employees get the message right away. It doesn't even take one speech.

[00:48:05] Like they will check out the body language. They will check out the behaviors. They will check out the way this leader talks to a certain person. And they will say, okay, this is not going to work for me. This, you know, and if they can leave, they will leave, they will start planning their exit. And so I think when, I think when people, you know, especially when boards hire presidents.

[00:48:29] Who are just, whose attitudes are, you know, I don't care about the people. I'm here to do the work. Well, the people are your work. 

[00:48:38] Jaime Hunt: And in higher ed so much, so yeah, we are, we are selling the work of people. 

[00:48:45] Eddie Francis: We are. And I mean, the thing is that you in higher ed. This is going to sound really corny, but in higher ed, you're making people's dreams come true.

[00:48:53] That's really your job, right? You are getting people who are investing not only a lot of money, but a lot of [00:49:00] time and a lot of energy and a whole lot of emotion into a very long journey. And that journey is supposed to pay off for the rest of their lives, right? And so you, you have this city. The small city, this college campus, you have all of these citizens, you have these neighborhoods in the academic units and the business units.

[00:49:26] And, and everybody has their agendas, but what everybody has in common is that they want this to work somehow for the rest of their lives, you have faculty who are, who are living by publish or perish, right? So they are investing so much. And making sure their research is seen, making sure it's heard. You have other faculty who are pure teachers.

[00:49:50] So they are investing all this emotion all this time into producing great students. So, you know, when, so I think the [00:50:00] institutions that do a bad job with employer branding, first of all, they do a bad job because they don't know they're doing a bad job, but I think a lot of them are doing a bad job when they hire these leaders.

 

[00:50:11] Who are focused on any and everything except the people. And Kevin McClure talks a lot about this on, on LinkedIn. Actually, he talks a lot about the fact that. You know, there's this, there's this thought in higher ed that is students first, and it's not a bad thought, but it's really hard to make sure that you have productive students if you have faculty and staff that don't even want to be there, or if you have faculty and staff who are treated like garbage.

[00:50:39] So, You really, so I think those, you know, without naming specific situations, I think those are the types of situations, at least two examples where employee branding is done, is done really, really badly. I think another example, it was really, so somebody told me this really funny story about one institution.

[00:50:58] Um, when I said, Hey, you [00:51:00] really need to brush up on your employer brand. And they said, well, yeah, we'll go to the HR page and you'll see all this great information. They went to the HR page and it was nothing but a laundry list of people of resources for people. It didn't necessarily tell a story. It wasn't anything that said.

[00:51:16] This is why this is a great place to work. It was just, it was just a resources of downloadable PDFs and stuff like that. Right. And 

[00:51:25] Jaime Hunt: here's all your 

[00:51:26] Eddie Francis: forms, right? You know, it was stuff like that. And, and they really thought that they were doing a good job at employer branding. And so, yeah, so I, I think those are some examples.

[00:51:36] Jaime Hunt: Those are great examples. And as long as we're talking about Kevin McClure, I'm just going to give a plug. If you haven't listened to the episode of my podcast or the episode of Eddie's with Kevin, you have to, it is, he's a fantastic interviewee and a great guy follow him on LinkedIn. He is having some really important conversations about higher ed and the Caring University.

[00:51:59] He's [00:52:00] amazing. 

[00:52:00] Eddie Francis: And listen, Jamie, on, on my podcast, I. about the work culture of higher ed. And I mean, it was his commentary. Some of his commentary was just damning. Right. And you're sitting here going, Oh, wow. He's really going to say this, but I mean, none of it was untrue. I mean, it was all based, first of all, it was all based on his research, first of all.

[00:52:22] But yeah, I mean, it, it, you really got the, you really got the feeling that. You know, there's an alarm that needs to be rung in higher ed. And I, and the, one of the most disappointing things about this whole employee branding conversation with a higher ed is that when you tell somebody higher ed about employee branding, they look at it as kind of a novelty and it's like, Oh, okay.

[00:52:43] That's the Eddie. That's the, what is that? And what are you talking about? All right, Eddie, fine. We'll do that. And it's like, yeah, but the private sector has been doing this for like a decade. So once again, higher ed, the sector that we think. Should be ahead of everybody is way ahead of it was way behind everybody and [00:53:00] doesn't see anything wrong with it.

[00:53:01] And you see, you're going, you know, like, you know, it's like, there, there's a reason that, that people want to work. And, well, I mean, all right, enjoy the plug Southwest airlines, but there's a reason that people want to work at Southwest airlines. There's a reason, even when they have bad days. They're still not as bad as a lot of other places, right?

[00:53:26] I applied for a job at Southwest. I was really disappointed. I didn't get that job. So, so I think, I think there's a lot to be said for higher ed really having to kind of open it, open its ears and to really pay attention and to understand that employee branding really, honestly. It's really kind of a low pressure way to boost the institutional brand.

[00:53:50] It's really not that much pressure. 

[00:53:53] Jaime Hunt: And it gets you better employees, which gets you better outcomes, [00:54:00] and it advances your institution faster, advances your students faster. It's just a no brainer to me. It's just a no brainer to me. 

[00:54:07] Eddie Francis: I think one of the most underestimated things, Jamie, is people not realizing that students want to go to institutions where it looks like the faculty and staff are having fun, too.

[00:54:19] A lot of people underestimate that, but students are going through your websites all the time. And while they're looking for information, they're also looking for clues that that institution is the place for them. So if you have these real authentic images of faculty. Working with students, not the, not the tried and true lab coat picture with the beaker and the doggone goggles.

[00:54:47] No, not that one. Okay. I'm talking about an authentic, there was this one picture of Dillard that I loved of, it was the first day of class and there was this. Um, staff member, uh, who [00:55:00] was over, uh, who was over a health program and she was giving this student a hug and it was the most genuine. I'm glad to see you have a great semester type of hug and I loved that picture.

[00:55:13] There was this other picture, um, that I caught where, um, where the, the president. Um, where Kimbrough was having a conversation with a student and he was into the conversation, like into it. And I'm thinking to myself, if a student sees. that the president is that much into what's going on. And if a student sees that this faculty member of the staff member is this happy to see a student, that's a great signal.

[00:55:42] And then, you know, there are some pictures I even caught. There were there were a couple of pictures where There were faculty members joking with one another. Like there was one picture. I remember a faculty member who was given another, another faculty member, really hard time at an event. And it was the coolest picture because you could tell that the one who was getting a [00:56:00] hard time was a little tired of it, but they were laughing.

[00:56:02] It was genuinely funny to them. And I'm sitting here going, this is a great moment. This is it. This is what I want to communicate. I want to communicate community and joy. This image needs to go on a website, you know? So, so I think, I think being, I think those authentic moments. Um, are, are, are things, you know, those authentic moments that involve faculty and staff are the moments that students are also looking for.

[00:56:26] They also want to see a great employer brand, even though they don't know that's what they're looking for. That is a part of what they're looking for. 

[00:56:33] Jaime Hunt: That is so true that I hope everybody who's listening to this plans to like run to their HR office tomorrow and set up a meeting with their VP of HR and see if there's something that you can do to work together.

[00:56:45] But you made me think about a moment that happened a couple of days ago. I was interviewing the candidate that I've selected for my AVP. And after the interview, It was just a deluge of rain. It was just pouring. And my [00:57:00] staff, the candidate gave a presentation and all my staff was there. And then they all had to go out into this big rainstorm and they were just teasing each other and laughing and trying to decide who was going to share umbrellas and who was going to do what and having just having a blast.

[00:57:14] And the candidate pulled me aside and said, this is what makes me want to work here. Seeing people having fun together, laughing together, having camaraderie, realizing that they have bonds that are beyond. you know, their work. And just today we had somebody who retired and one of the staff was serenading him.

[00:57:36] He's a musician. He was playing guitar and singing to him. And he prefaced it with like, I just want you to know, I'm really nervous because I get nervous performing for my friends more than I do for the general public. And it just touched my heart that he called All of us, co workers, his friends, that that's how he thought, and I know as a leader, like, you can't really necessarily be friends with [00:58:00] your staff, but I think it's a good thing for people to think of their colleagues as their friends, generally speaking, because it's when you, I, I, I'll use this metaphor, if you're dancing with somebody, And they step on your toe, you can laugh it off, right?

[00:58:17] If people step on each other's toes, right? If you're dancing, you're in a moment, you're both doing a thing together and you, you laugh it off, but if somebody just walks over to you and stomps on your toe, now you're pissed, right? Like why did that person step on the toe? If you are actually friends and have a relationship and care about and have camaraderie and somebody steps on your toe, you're not flipping out.

[00:58:40] You're just adjusting, right? Exactly. And that's, to me, that's what I see as like the kind of work environment I want to foster that I think institutions should want to foster. 

[00:58:52] Eddie Francis: Yeah, Jamie. Anybody who is anybody who is realistic and mature, they [00:59:00] know they're going to be bad days, right? They know that they're going to be days when the president is going to make a decision that's going to drive everybody batty.

[00:59:08] They know they're going to be this. days when, you know, they're going to get bad news, right? They know, especially being, you know, a state institution, they know they're going to be days that the legislature is going to do something and it's going to send the whole campus into a tailspin. They know those days are going to happen.

[00:59:24] I think what quality employee, I think what quality candidates look for is how. Uh, how a community of employees bounces back from that stuff, and they also look for how the leader takes people through that stuff, and if they can see that the, if they can see that elasticity, if they can see people just snapping right back and saying, okay.

[00:59:48] Let's get back to work. Let's get it done. You know, if they can see that if they can have that hot and heavy argument with somebody, and then the next day come in and bring somebody a donut and say, okay, I was wrong [01:00:00] and just bounce back and get back to work, then that makes it all worth it. You know, and, and people, and I think that's the kind of stuff that people also look for in a great employer brand.

[01:00:10] You know, they really look for an environment where there's this reality that we're not going to agree all the time. Right. But we do work together and we do believe in what we're doing. And by the time you leave here, you won't, you won't be 100 percent of satisfied, but you'll be thankful that you had the experience.

[01:00:29] And I think that's what a lot of institutions should go for when they're establishing an employer brand. 

[01:00:36] Jaime Hunt: I love that. I love that. So, Eddie, if people wanna get in touch with you, if they're like, I need to talk to Eddie, which they should, because A, your voice is amazing, . So just for that reason alone, you should talk to Eddie.

[01:00:48] But also Eddie's super smart and insightful. But where can people find you? 

[01:00:53] Eddie Francis: You know what? They can find me at my website. They can just go to eddie francis.com. All the information is there. All the places to connect with me [01:01:00] are right there. I would be happy to hear from folks. Absolutely. 

[01:01:04] Jaime Hunt: Awesome. I think it would be fantastic for anybody to have a conversation with Eddie and, you know, I know that you are doing a lot of work on a consulting basis and tell me a little bit about that, what you're doing with that in case there's folks that want to partner with 

[01:01:21] Eddie Francis: you.

[01:01:22] Employer branding is something that I am looking to consult. I mean, I'm just rolling out edify ventures, but I really want to be able to talk to colleges and universities about their employer branding practices. Just some simple things that can get done to get the ball rolling. And then another part of brand strategy that I have enjoyed doing is I've enjoyed doing personal brand strategy.

[01:01:45] So I've worked with folks on resumes. I have, I have worked also with folks on public speaking. I have a. Public speaking client right now that I'm working with. I got a few resumes on the desk that I'm working right now from, from various sectors. And yes, higher ed is one of those [01:02:00] sectors where I have resumes.

[01:02:01] So I'm helping a couple of folks with CVs right now, but yeah, that's, that's what I'm doing. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about that. But yeah, that's, that's what I'm doing right now. So it is very interesting me being on my own these days. And so I'm enjoying every single minute of it.

[01:02:17] How's your boss? My boss is fine. Are you talking about the dog? Are you talking about my wife? I mean, who are we talking about? No, you know what? No, I actually, so whenever I talk to students and they're just like, Oh, I don't want to, I don't want a boss. I'm going to own my own business. And I'm like, well, your boss is going to be the customer at that point.

[01:02:34] Right. So I will say this to all my clients right now, my clients are great bosses. They're treating me very, very well. Actually. I love all my clients right now. So I'm having a really good time dealing with them. 

[01:02:49] Jaime Hunt: I love it. I love it. I think, I know there's a lot of aspiring CMOs that listen to this podcast.

[01:02:55] And I think asking Eddie to give a, a look at your CV and make some [01:03:00] recommendations for your personal brand. I know there's so many people who are just hungry to take that next step and maybe they just need some tips or tricks or whatever. And Eddie's a great resource for that. So, you know, connect with him.

[01:03:11] I think he's awesome. You can always connect with me. I'm on LinkedIn as Jamie Hunt, J A I M E H U N T. And I'm on. Formerly known as Twitter, Jamie Hunt. 

[01:03:24] Eddie Francis: You can't even say it seriously. Can you? 

[01:03:28] Jaime Hunt: It sounds so wrong. And I don't know, I could have a whole podcast about why you give up when it has its own term for what you do.

[01:03:38] You've given up. I'm going to tweet, I'm going to tweet for post, which is what everybody has, but that's like, I digress, but

[01:03:51] you can still find me there if you want to. And please, if you do on either platform, use the hashtag higher ed CMO, I would love [01:04:00] to see some conversation around this. And this is Eddie, you're opening up season four of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO Strong. I'm 

[01:04:08] Eddie Francis: opening season 

[01:04:09] Jaime Hunt: four. You are, you are opening season four.

[01:04:12] Eddie Francis: Oh, thank you so much. I'm going to, you know what I'm going to, I'm going to give, since I'm, I'm going to do you the honor of, of acknowledging this in my, in my very own New Orleans way. Thank you, baby. Thank 

[01:04:26] Jaime Hunt: you. I love it. I need to get to New Orleans because my husband loves it. I have not been there, but I need to get down there.

[01:04:35] And I'll stop by and send it. Come 

[01:04:36] Eddie Francis: on down so you can get some gumbo, pull boy, jambalaya, all that good stuff. Beignets, I got you. Chicory coffee, I got you. 

[01:04:45] Jaime Hunt: I love it. And I feel like I'd get along with your wife being that she's from 

[01:04:49] Eddie Francis: Winston Salem. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. 

[01:04:52] Jaime Hunt: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Eddie.

[01:04:55] And thank you listeners. And as always, let's go bust some silos. [01:05:00] 

[01:05:01] Eddie Francis: Hey, y'all. Zach here from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO with Jamie Heim. If you liked this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leaving a rating and a review of this show on Apple podcasts.

[01:05:20] Our podcast network is growing by the month and we've got a plethora of marketing, admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional. But enrollify is far more than just a podcast network.

[01:05:37] Enrollify is where higher ed comes to learn new marketing skills, discover new products and services. and find their next job. We're a growing learning community of 4, 000 members, and we'd love to welcome you into the fold. You can access our free blog articles, newsletters, e courses, and more, or purchase our master course on how to market a university with Terry Flannery at enrollify.

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