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Podcasts Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO Episode 24
The Importance of Authenticity in Your Brand Story
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Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Jaime Hunt: Hi. I'm a higher ed CMO and I have a confession to make. Sometimes when I get into meetings or dealing with HR or hiring or any number of other issues that take me out of the day to day in marketing, it can be really easy to forget that as a marketer I can have some influence over the student. We're gonna be talking with Victoria O'Malley about why it's important for the things that we say students are going to experience to align with what their experience actually is on our campuses, and we're gonna talk a little bit about how we as marketers can actually influence some of that student experience.
[00:00:56] Welcome to Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo, the podcast [00:01:00] design for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jamie Hunt, and I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration with Confessions of a Higher Ed cmo. I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education marketing.
[00:01:22] After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by using the hashtag higher ed cmo. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at at Jamie Hunt i m c, that's J A i m E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to connect.
[00:01:48] I am so excited to be here with Victoria O'Malley, who's the C M O at Colorado School of Mines, which is not School of Mimes, which my husband, when I said , who I was interviewing today, he was like, [00:02:00] mimes, what is that? So I, I'm gonna have to ask you right out of the Gate, Victoria, what, what's the deal with School of
[00:02:07] Victoria O'Malley: Minds?
[00:02:08] School of Minds? We are one of the best engineering schools in the. That's, that's what's up with School of Minds . Uh, we're, we're a public R one institution here, uh, right outside of Denver, Colorado, and Golden Colorado, so it's a special place, that's for sure. How many students do y'all have? We're at about 7,000, mostly undergrad, but also graduate programs and online programs as well.
[00:02:31] Jaime Hunt: Is it primarily engineering or do you just have a really strong engineering program?
[00:02:36] Victoria O'Malley: Really strong engineering and focus on STEM education and research. So I mean, we have a business analytics program, data science, computer science, all the fun STEM things you can do.
[00:02:49] Jaime Hunt: That's awesome. And your brand new in your role there.
[00:02:51] Tell me a little bit about your higher ed journey. Yeah,
[00:02:54] Victoria O'Malley: so I started in a b2. Creative department, uh, for a jewelry company of [00:03:00] all things. And, um, I wasn't really feeling fulfilled in that. So I was doing a lot of fun activities like social media and writing emails and writing copy, but I just, I wasn't digging it.
[00:03:12] And so I remember specifically being at a conference, it was like an e retailer marketing conference, and somebody asked my colleague what we did and they're like, oh, we're in the jewelry business. And I thought, We're in the jewelry business. I don't wanna be in the jewelry business. So, uh, I tried to find something that was more mission driven and luckily my brother was already in higher education working for a community college in Colorado, and he saw a job posting at the University of Denver that he said was describing me.
[00:03:39] So I had to apply and. . I spent 12 years there in their online and continuing education college, uh, working my way up to senior director of marketing and communications, promoting master's degrees, bachelor's completion, professional development there, and I fell in love with it. I fell in love with working with students, teaching on the side, and getting to interact with [00:04:00] students, um, online and in person, mostly adult learners.
[00:04:04] Then decided to get my e d d. It was a bit of a pandemic project. And so I finished my dissertation in 2020. I defended and I, uh, loved my experience. I went to Northeastern, completed that online with a couple residencies in Boston, and loved that program. Really focused on social justice. Got to meet colleagues from across the country doing really interesting things.
[00:04:26] I loved the opportunity to really broaden my experience and knowledge of higher education outside of my lens or my lane that is market. Even though all my classwork and research focused on marketing and branding, and I tried to always bring it back to that, getting that depth, uh, was really important to me and, and certainly useful in my career.
[00:04:45] Now, uh, I, I spent some time at CU Denver as their assistant Vice Chancellor of marketing and brand, and now I'm happy to be the C M O at Colorado School of Minds.
[00:04:55] Jaime Hunt: So we started our conversation on Twitter after I shared a quote from an interview. [00:05:00] Me , um, in Ed Gauge Magazine where I said, if your students are not having a positive experience or if your brand promise doesn't align with what is delivered, that disconnect will come back and bite you.
[00:05:12] Word of mouth is an important driver of enrollment and you, I think, retweeted that and added some commentary and I would love to know what. Resonated with you and why. Sure.
[00:05:24] Victoria O'Malley: Yeah. The, the language you were using really resonated with me and it aligned so closely with my doctoral research. I just had to reach out to you, and I've mentioned before, and I'm happy to say it.
[00:05:33] I'm a fan girl of you in this podcast. So, uh, I was happy to see something that connected so deeply with what I'm passionate about in terms of aligning brand promises with the reality of the student experience, and it sounds really simple. , and you would hope everyone would strive for that and does it.
[00:05:51] Yet they don't. I feel like marketers, we hold a lot of power, right? In the words we choose, the claims we put out there, the visuals and [00:06:00] everything that we're using and that we choose. We have a responsibility to ensure that the expectations that we're setting, the promises we're making, that all aligns with reality and it's as authentic as it can be.
[00:06:12] um, the word of mouth piece of, of your statement too, really important. Obviously word of mouth and a positive sentiment leads to higher satisfaction, loyalty, retention, all the things that we want. Uh, so that really resonated with me, uh, when, when you were talking about that.
[00:06:30] Jaime Hunt: So tell me a little bit about your dissertation
[00:06:32] Victoria O'Malley: research.
[00:06:34] It was, um, a really fascinating project. I got to talk to about 17 participants who were all adult learners pursuing online master's degrees, and I talked to them about their interpretation of the brand and it aligned with their experience as students. So part of my research, I was using a theoretical framework called Expectation Confirmation Theory.
[00:06:56] And in some circles it's referenced. [00:07:00] Expectation, disconfirm theory. And it's basically post-purchase satisfaction based on expectations. So you're asking people, you know, did your experience exceed, meet or fall short of expectations? And I asked all of these participants about their experiences and and, and the expectations that were set through marketing and communication prior to enrollment.
[00:07:23] And then once they enrolled in the program, what that experience was like. And. I view our job as marketers to set realistic and authentic expectations. And after talking to these students, uh, who are pursuing their master's degrees entirely online, super important, uh, recognizing they're looking at so many different sources of information before they make a decision, whether it's the website, emails, talking to a recruiter, advertising, social media, whatever it may be, that's all informing their perception and shaping their expectations going into the experience and.
[00:07:56] Once they're in that experience, does it align? Uh, and sometimes I [00:08:00] think we think about exceeding expectations as a positive thing. That's not even great because as marketers we should be setting the right expectations. So I talked to a couple participants and I remember one said, I had no idea there were so many extracurricular activities or co-curricular opportunities coming into my online program.
[00:08:19] I feel like that is almost a failure on the marketer side because, , we didn't set that right expectation for them that that would be an opportunity for them. So even exceeding expectations while often thought of as positive may not be in this case
[00:08:34] Jaime Hunt: that that is really interesting. That's a really interesting thing to think about.
[00:08:38] And why do you think it's important for expectations to align with the
[00:08:42] Victoria O'Malley: reality? So a well-aligned brand that increases satisfaction, it increases trust, loyalty. . And I think the risks of failing to deliver on those promises, you know, I like to say that it ranges from disappointment at best [00:09:00] to litigation at worst.
[00:09:02] Mm-hmm. . So yeah, if, if we're talking about damaged institutional reputation, of course, loss of federal financial aid and accreditation on the really extreme side of things. Um, but then just disappointing someone is also part of that. Right. And that dissatisfaction. I know just from a marketing perspective, I, I don't wanna hear from people that they were misled or there were false claims.
[00:09:26] One of my participants said that they felt it was fraudulent the way they were marketed to, and then the reality of their experience. And so, um, at the individual human level that's just so gut-wrenching to hear, uh, from a student having that experience. on the positive side, you know, satisfaction that leads to loyalty.
[00:09:46] That can lead to deeper alumni engagement, philanthropic donations, uh, pursuit of lifelong learning, continuing education. If we think about, um, students coming back maybe for a graduate certificate in a few years, or a class, [00:10:00] if they didn't have a positive experience in their undergrad or their master's program, whatever credential they were earning at the time, they're not gonna come back for.
[00:10:07] down the line. So, um, it's really a long-term play as well as making sure they're having a positive experience in the moment.
[00:10:15] Jaime Hunt: Yeah, absolutely. When you were talking, I was thinking about how when we all pivoted in 2020 to go online, um, a previous institution I worked for is in the midst of a lawsuit about that pivot to going online.
[00:10:31] what they're saying in their lawsuit is that they were sold this on-campus experience and that this on-campus experience with connectivity to faculty, with the extracurriculars, with the student life, all of that, that we did such a good job of selling that, and that was their experience for other semesters.
[00:10:48] But then when they went online, they felt like they were sold a bill of goods. Now we all know that we didn't have a choice in 2020. Like we all, everybody pivoted. I think that. , [00:11:00] not very many schools that didn't. But I, I do think about that sort of, to me that is almost like a unintentional exceeding of expectations that led to.
[00:11:11] To litigation, but we don't wanna sell them. I mean, we, we don't wanna sell on, not sell what the experience is gonna be on the off chance that we have to pivot during a hundred year global pandemic, but still. Right. I think that's a really good, um, sort of example of what can happen if, if your brand, uh, experience as an online with the expectation.
[00:11:33] Victoria O'Malley: Right. And I remember doing some research when we were coming up with an ad campaign and we were fully online. Students wanted to see pictures of campus. They wanted to see the people in a classroom, and I think it added to their sense of credibility that it was a real school even. You know, even though they wouldn't be participating in kind of the brick and mortar experience or the in-person experience, they wanted to have that sense that this was real.
[00:11:57] And so, , I had to have a lot of pushback [00:12:00] with some internal people. Like, Hey, we're pushing an online program, but you keep showing photos of campus. But the research showed us that our prospective students, our current students, that's what they wanted to see. They wanted to see people in the environment, and you could almost look at that as misleading because you're showing these people interacting in a classroom when they're technically gonna be behind a computer screen.
[00:12:23] But, uh, that, that one, in that case, it.
[00:12:28] Jaime Hunt: When I was at, um, UW Oshkosh, they were playing around with using Second Life to like create a totally virtual campus for students to online students to navigate. And that's something that it's not through Second Life, but I think they're, it's a digital twin situation where, um, our ODU global of which I, I'm not part of, of marketing those programs necessarily.
[00:12:53] Marketing, the brand is obviously in my portfolio. Um, they're doing something like that too because they are [00:13:00] hearing from students that they wanna feel connected to the institution a little bit better.
[00:13:04] Victoria O'Malley: Right. Yeah. I think those virtual college campus tours, I think people wanna see that. They wanna know what the experience will be like.
[00:13:11] It informs their perception of the brand overall, even though they themselves won't be participating. . I remember one of the participants in my study said that he liked seeing the people with the sweatshirts, you know, walking across campus with their book bag, even though he knew that would never be him, but he liked to see it, and I think there was comfort in knowing that existed and just it gave him a feel of, of that campus experience and, and it contributed to the perception of the brand.
[00:13:41] Jaime Hunt: Hey all. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed C M O. I wanna take a moment to thank my friends at mindpower who are making season two of this volfi podcast. Possible. Mindpower is a full service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly 30 years of needle moving, thought-provoking, [00:14:00] research, fueled creative and strategy.
[00:14:02] Mind power is woman founded and owned, W B E N C, certified nationally. Re. And serves the social sector, higher education, healthcare, nonprofits, and more. The mind power team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experienced creators from market research to brand campaigns, to recruitment to fundraising.
[00:14:21] The agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. You can learn more about their work in the world by heading on over to mind power. That's M I N D P O W E R I N c.com. And be sure to tell the crew that Jamie sent you their way. I got my master's through an online program at West Virginia University and I bought all the gear and I have the, oh, sure.
[00:14:48] You know, the bumper sticker. I have the whole thing cuz, and I'm, I'm proud to be a mountaineer and I give back to the institution. But I think part of that is that they did such a good job of making us feel like [00:15:00] we were part of a community even though we. on campus except for, you know, the end of the program.
[00:15:06] Absolutely.
[00:15:06] Victoria O'Malley: I have my Northeastern gear somewhere, so I need my key chain. But yeah, it's the same thing. And uh, I think keeping that as my in mind as a marketer for an online program or anything, making that available to your online student, so important, making sure you have that online bookstore where they can buy it from a distance.
[00:15:22] I think I had to buy a few things through Amazon, which I'm sure was not licensed or . Uh, Now, now working in the branding and licensing and trademarking world, I'm unimpressed with myself that I, I went the Amazon route. But, um, that's an important piece for, for marketers to know. Sending some swag with, with the name to your online students.
[00:15:41] That can go a long way to building affinity.
[00:15:44] Jaime Hunt: Yeah, absolutely. Like I feel almost, um, I feel as much connected, if not more so to my graduate alma mater than my undergraduate alma mater. In part because the faculty. I forged much deeper relationships with faculty. Mm-hmm. , I [00:16:00] felt like mm-hmm. , because this, the program was smaller than my undergraduate program was, but, you know, I, I did feel connected as a mountaineer.
[00:16:08] Yeah. Yeah. So, um, from your perspective, what makes a good brand story?
[00:16:15] Victoria O'Malley: I think a realistic one. Something that feels real. Maybe using plain language. You know, I see a lot of loft. Brand stories, particularly when, you know, engaging with some outside agencies, they like to write, you know, really lofty narratives for us, uh, about what we do as an institution.
[00:16:35] Changing the lives of students, you know, one degree at a time. And I, and I, I think there is that real ripple effect and that's worth highlighting and taking a step back and really making sure, you know what. that makes us special and unique. And what is the real experience, uh, that you'll have in the classroom, whether that classroom's online or on campus?
[00:16:55] What is your experience as part of that community and how can you distill [00:17:00] that into the brand, you know, essence, if you will, and infuse that into your messaging? I think that's also important, um, to make sure that we're having a cohesive message across the board, but a realistic one, uh, and having an understanding of how students interpret your.
[00:17:17] and, and what a brand means to them, and being realistic and practical about that. And I know as a marketer I should feel more impassioned probably about, Hey, we need a really, you know, strong brand. We need a hundred page brand book for people to look through. But how are people really gonna consume that information and how will students interpret what the brand is?
[00:17:37] When I asked participants in my study to describe the brand of their institution, the words that popped up were online, flexible rank. They didn't even care where it was ranked or how it was ranked. They just said, oh, it's ranked. That's, you know, that's what they wanted. Large, large in the sense of enrollment and large in the sense of physical space.
[00:17:58] That came up a couple times, which was [00:18:00] interesting, and that was all contributing to their positive perception of the brand of the institution. Um, and I view those more as attributes or features. Right? Yeah. I wouldn't lead in, you know, lead a brand story with those. Right. And yet that's how they interpreted the brand.
[00:18:17] That's what they used in their decision making about where to go. And so, uh, as marketers and brand, brand folks, we, we spend a lot of time crafting positioning statements and boiling down the brand essence and getting a messaging map all important and we need it. And let's keep in mind what students are actually interpreting as, as the.
[00:18:39] Jaime Hunt: I am amused cuz I'm thinking about if we made those lofty, you know, 30, 62nd commercials, just around those things. Like we're big . Yeah, we're busy. We have, we're all
[00:18:50] Victoria O'Malley: ranking . Yep. Don't worry about what the ranking is, we're just know that we're ranked. It's fine. Right.
[00:18:57] Jaime Hunt: Yeah. We have students like, it just seems [00:19:00] so, like the very fundamentals.
[00:19:02] And I wonder if, if as marketers. We tend to forget some of those fundamentals when we work on branding and branding exercises. Right. And I think,
[00:19:11] Victoria O'Malley: I think the brand narrative is maybe more important at the undergraduate level. Keeping in mind my research was focused on the graduate level master students, and they are very focused on the facts, right?
[00:19:21] How much, how long can I do it? They wanna know that first and foremost, and. knowing that it really informed our messaging strategy where we had a product first, brand second kind of strategy, which mm-hmm. . I guess that's a confession here. I can, I, I feel like this is a safe space. I can admit that that's what we did.
[00:19:40] You know, brand really came second and we had to layer that in later on. Once people understood that the program was credible, that it was achievable, like feasible for them, you know, in terms of price point. time to completion or, or what time they would have to dedicate throughout the week to it. Then we could [00:20:00] start talking brand messaging and maybe the more, the fluffy stuff.
[00:20:04] But they really just needed the nitty gritty details first about if they could do it and how long it would take.
[00:20:10] Jaime Hunt: I wonder if, you know, in, in corporate America, let's say, you know, you're working at, um, a company that's gonna roll out a new breakfast. , I'm just riffing here. Yeah, you probably are starting with the product, like how do you make a product that is appealing and what are, you know, what are the attributes of the product?
[00:20:31] And then from there you start to build a brand around it. Right. I wonder if like that's actually the right order to do things. And a lot of times marketers aren't at the table in defining the product in HigherEd. Right. And I think the savvy universities have us as part of that convers. ,
[00:20:49] Victoria O'Malley: absolutely. Get the marketers in at the table early on in that, you know, curriculum development, new program development.
[00:20:55] Too often we're just handed something here, go sell it. [00:21:00] But even down to like the naming of it, right? Yeah. Like the course titles, program names. That all matters. And if we can have a say in it, not dictate it, but a say in it and, and bring in our best practices and our research, I feel like we can create a stronger product to sell even.
[00:21:18] I know we don't like to think about selling products, but, but we
[00:21:22] Jaime Hunt: are, I mean, that's what we're doing. Yeah, in a lot of ways, you know, we are in conversations about net tuition revenue and, you know, yield rates and summer melt and, you know, all of those side of things. You make a really good point about the naming of things.
[00:21:37] Uh, I'm, I really hesitate to, like, pick on a previous institution, but, um, you know, they changed the name of a program from something like Interactive Media Studies to mm-hmm , emerging Technology and Business and Design. , the program dropped by like 40%. Wow. In, in like a year because who's Googling?
[00:21:57] Emerging technology. Right. Business [00:22:00] design. Um, and so we started doing for them, like Google search Yes. Analysis. Like this is, if you name your program this, this is the kind of search volume there is for that. If there's, right. If you name it this, there's almost no search volume. Um, right. And Google Trends
[00:22:18] Victoria O'Malley: is your friend just Yes.
[00:22:20] Commit to it. It doesn't have to dictate everything, but it should certainly be a factor in the decision making. And too often it's just, it's already a done deal. It's in the catalog, just, you know, make a website and sell it
[00:22:33] Jaime Hunt: and, you know, changing any, the name of anything in higher ed is, oh, no, . It's like an act of God to, to get that done.
[00:22:39] We're not
[00:22:40] Victoria O'Malley: doing that easily. No.
[00:22:41] Jaime Hunt: So it can be really easy for us as marketers to kind of not think about the student experience, like we're not in the classrooms, we're. In the dining halls, you know, we're not at the student activities the way some of our colleagues are across campus, but why is it [00:23:00] important for us to be thinking about that?
[00:23:01] Why is the customer experience and putting that in air quotes important?
[00:23:07] Victoria O'Malley: customer experience is everything, right? It's what we're selling. Uh, if we're going back to this idea of selling a product, sure we're selling a credential, a degree or a certificate, but we're also selling that experience, right? And we're hoping alumni will look.
[00:23:19] And view it with a sense of pride and satisfaction. And so, um, when we think about, just going back to just the definition of branding, right? It's a unique identity. Sure. But it's also the experience people are having with it. So I, I encourage, you know, anybody who's touching marketing or communications to go onto campus, immerse yourself in that experience.
[00:23:40] Walk around when the students are passing between classes and have a feel for what the campus is cuz how. write to them or about them without being around them and knowing what that experience is like. And, um, you know, in my research I found a high level of dissonance between marketing and program [00:24:00] experience, right?
[00:24:00] A lot of schools failed to shape expectations, um, before somebody enrolled about workload technology, faculty involvement. You know, you better believe that they were highlighting all the faculty on the, the website or in the emails before they got there. But then when they got. , they didn't have the mentorship or the one-on-one interaction that they were promised.
[00:24:19] And so that, that's not good from the student perspective, it's not good from a marketing perspective if we're selling it and it's not the reality. So, um, we, we won't be able to shape that experience as much as we would want to as marketers, but we have to be aware of what that experience is and make sure that we're being, being real.
[00:24:42] Jaime Hunt: how do you make sure that you're being real about it? How do you suss out that, okay, we're talking about this hands-on experience with faculty, but they're not having that hands-on experience. How do you find that out and how do you address that? Right.
[00:24:57] Victoria O'Malley: I think you have to talk to the students directly [00:25:00] and um, I was just a guest speaker in a business class at Mines and it was really interesting cuz they had done a SWAT analysis on the Colorado school.
[00:25:07] and I wanted to get my hands on that and see what they viewed as the strengths of the weaknesses. Right. And opportunities and threats. I think that's all so important to, to ask the students what they think about that and uh, asking them about their expectations. Right. And if they, if they fell short, met or exceeded those expectations.
[00:25:26] Just asking that simple question. Not saying necessarily in a survey, but if you can get into the classroom, ask them on campus. Before I started at Mines, I walked around the campus and I. , the students who were passing by, Hey, what's your experience like here? What do you like about it? And they were very willing to talk about it.
[00:25:45] It was great. Uh, I wasn't even offering them free pizza. I just asked them out on the street , and, and they were very willing to, you know, give me a lot of feedback. And so that helped inform my decision to go there. Uh, and I think just getting, [00:26:00] getting that one-on-one, maybe not even in a formal way, right?
[00:26:03] Like, not the survey or a focus group necessarily, but. Being willing to be part of that community and ask the questions. Um, and the faculty too, right? Talking to them, uh, and making those connections can be really important. And just listening and not being defensive about things either, I think is an important piece there.
[00:26:21] And, and when you hear that feedback, really take it in and, and see what ways you can influence, uh, that, but also what are ways you can tweak your messaging so it's more aligned with the reality. ,
[00:26:35] Jaime Hunt: uh, what are the things that we can influence? We, we can't make faculty interact with students more. We can't, right?
[00:26:42] Necessarily, you know, control what's taught in the curriculum or that kind of thing, but what can we influence from the student per experience perspective?
[00:26:50] Victoria O'Malley: Sure. So we might not have a say in the curriculum, but we can definitely shape how we talk about the curriculum. And I think any [00:27:00] communication tool that we have at our disposal, whether it's the website, social media, Our ads that we're putting out there, that's what we touch, right?
[00:27:08] And so, um, in my research I used, uh, the brand touchpoint wheel. So it was actually originally created for corporate purposes, right? So it's, um, all the touchpoints you have with a consumer pre-purchase, purchase, post-purchase, and all the influencing touchpoints, well, that was adapted for higher educat. Um, and that the stages there are pre-admission during the course post passings and influencing.
[00:27:35] So we're really in that pre-admission stage. Uh, that's where marketers really get to talk about all the experiences, whether it's through the website or email recruiters, you know, that those one-on-one conversations we really influenced. and then, uh, those influencing touchpoints where it's just the emails they get every week or the, the social media posts when they're following them, that [00:28:00] that can help shape a lot.
[00:28:01] So marketers, again, need that seat at the table early on. I think that just reiterates that point that we should be involved earlier in curriculum development and programming. Again, not to dictate anything, but at least to hear it and to understand. , uh, what people are trying to go for, what faculty are trying to get out of something, and then, um, you know, those are the factors that we can influence.
[00:28:27] Jaime Hunt: When you talked about touchpoints, it that, Made me think about that we do control or can control some of those touchpoints, um, that we might not be thinking about. Mm-hmm. , when I think about my time at Winston-Salem State, one of the things we did was rewrite all of the, um, communications that were going out about your housing assignment and moving in.
[00:28:48] And, um, if you. , uh, housing issue where you needed, you were late with your bill or your delinquent, you know, rewriting all of those, that they were a little [00:29:00] kinder and a little, um, more gentle understanding that these are 18 to 22 year olds who Right. Maybe don't have, you know, don't, don't have all of the life experience to know that you can't.
[00:29:15] do this, you know, gross thing in your, in your presidents hall or whatever, right? You know, they don't, you know, instead of writing it with a, a deficit mindset, writing it with more of a, Hey, you know, you, you missed this step and we're here to help you. Do you need any help? Uh, accomplishing this step, rewriting the tuition bill letter, you know, the language that went with the bills.
[00:29:37] Um, we rewrote so much stuff and part of that was. , as you're talking, I'm thinking about that's part of the student experience that we might not think about because it's just, it seems, oh, that's just information that's not marketing or it's just, um mm-hmm. , it's just a letter about housing. That's not, that's informational, but it is part of their student experience opening up [00:30:00] your tuition bill.
[00:30:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. As part of
[00:30:02] Victoria O'Malley: your student experience. And I love like leading with empathy in that. I love that approach. And also recognizing they may not have the vocabulary. For some of these things and trying to break it down in more layman's terms can be so helpful for them. And that takes a skilled communicator to do that.
[00:30:17] Right? A marketer to be able to translate some of those things. So engaging with the marketing team in areas like that where it may not traditionally happen, right? Housing, financial aid, wherever. Making sure there's partnership there at every touchpoint throughout the student experience. The digital signs on campus, the, the flyers that they get, the emails they're getting.
[00:30:40] it all influences their perception of their experience and can influence their satisfaction.
[00:30:46] Jaime Hunt: Absolutely. I, I love that thought. I love that idea of the, the touchpoint wheel that's, that is, um, kind of puts language to something that, you know, I've put into practice before, but I, I'm definitely gonna look more into [00:31:00] that.
[00:31:01] So I watched one of your presentations, um, that you gave recently where you talked a little bit about predatory recruitment and marketing practices, and what do you mean by that?
[00:31:11] Victoria O'Malley: Sure. I think there are kind of two levels to it. So there's the malicious kind, right? The false promises, maybe about financial aid or career outcomes, and then you have more inadvertent, um, re predatory recruitment practices, right?
[00:31:27] Maybe just more misleading. , maybe you didn't get the class size ratio right, or, um, you said that there was gonna be a lot of rigor and then in the reality of it, it's a lot of busy work. And as one participant in my study mentioned death by PowerPoint, uh mm-hmm. . And so, uh, I think we hear it mostly, you know, from in the news, at least in about for-profits or OPMs.
[00:31:51] And I do think that's problematic, but all schools need to look out for that. There's this pressure to boost enrollment and that can lead to making [00:32:00] false claims or inaccurate claims. And if you're not connected to your campus or understand, you know, what's being made available, then you can make those mistakes.
[00:32:11] Uh, I think for the most part they're mistakes, but, um, you do get into that area that's a little more malicious and intentional. Predatory practices, making promises, you know, aren't real. I mean, I think we saw, um, a few years ago, university of Phoenix had that huge settlement, um, based on deceptive advertising where they were making false promises about future employment.
[00:32:36] And it was a really simple ad. If you go back and look at the ad, it was like a 32nd spot on all these companies that they would connect graduates. and it seemed innocent enough, but it turned out, you know, it was 191 million settlement. So obviously , something went wrong there. And, and yeah, just being really clear about what the outcomes are as well.
[00:32:59] So it [00:33:00] it, the student experience, yes, but also career outcomes, salary projections. I think we have to be really careful about what we're promising to students, uh, and what data. Using as a source for that. Um, and if you can get even more specific when you are giving those salary outcomes, um, you know, not just the general on average, but if you can break it down by the program, get as specific as you can and use real alumni data rather than, you know, engineers make x well, our engineers, our graduates who turn into engineers, this is what they make.
[00:33:35] And if you can get more specific, I think you can avoid some of those pit. I
[00:33:40] Jaime Hunt: remember when that, um, case first sort of came out into the news and I remember like telling my team and I, I think I was, um, in a web role at that time. Like, we need to look at every website and make sure that we're not saying you will get a job.
[00:33:56] Right. You will, you know nothing about [00:34:00] guaranteed. And even, right, like I get a little bit of, um, palpitations about things like experience guaranteed. Ooh, that's, Ooh, that scares me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do you, it's, it's sort of like, you know, how do you define dis experience, right? Like, mm-hmm. , you could say the whole student experience is an experience.
[00:34:21] So experience is guaranteed. That's true. I, it just, I don't like the word guaranteed in marketing because No, there's just, there's no guarantees and just crossing off the
[00:34:30] Victoria O'Malley: list. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And you could really go down the rabbit hole. I mean, you could, I, I remember having to write web copy at one of my former institutions and we couldn't say, students will learn X in this class because you couldn't guarantee they were gonna learn it.
[00:34:46] So you could say they have the opportunity to. Learn or will be exposed to X, but you, you really couldn't even make that guarantee that they would learn a certain topic or concept [00:35:00] because what if they didn't do the reading that week? Right.
[00:35:04] Jaime Hunt: That's a really good point. I, I find it, um, . You know, when I'm working with people who are new to marketing or maybe new to higher ed marketing, I find I have to do a lot of educating around that cuz it's sort of they mm-hmm.
[00:35:20] they want to sell the product. Right? Right. They, they want to ta talk in terms that will get people excited about it, but sometimes it can be hyperbolic. And then we're in a situation where potentially somebody down the road could. You said X I did not experience X. Right. And none of my classmates experience X.
[00:35:40] And so here's a class action lawsuit, Yik, you know, that's, that's not great. Right?
[00:35:45] Victoria O'Malley: Let's try to avoid that at all. . Yes. And yeah, it, it takes a lot of work up front. And I think there are so many pressures, especially right now, enrollment Cliff coming, like, you wanna sell, you wanna be unique. Um, you know, there are more than 5,000 [00:36:00] schools in colleges out there.
[00:36:01] How do you be unique amongst all of that? , maybe it means, you know, falsifying claim here or there or using outdated rankings. I see that a lot, right? Like, uh, I just was looking at a list that we were using and something was from like 2017 and it was the last time they did this ranking for whatever it was.
[00:36:21] And I felt like, okay, well we could use it cuz it was the last time they did it, but feels a little disingenuous to give something from five or six years ago when that's not relevant. So even things like that, that there may be claims that have been out there on your website or your brochures that have been there year after year, but we haven't checked to see if it's still accurate or is that really genuine to have something on there that's so outdated.
[00:36:51] Jaime Hunt: I hope that if anybody is listening to this episode and they don't work in marketing, that they're getting a fresh appreciation for the, the kind of things [00:37:00] that we have to be thinking about in marketing, right? Cause I think sometimes people think we just make things pretty, or we just, you know, write this fluffy ad copy.
[00:37:08] But we have to be thinking about things that could impact the long-term financial viability of our institutions and absolutely. And there's so much to be aware of in terms of regulations and, and just ethics,
[00:37:22] Victoria O'Malley: right? In marketing, it's daunting. And then bringing it down back to that individual level of just, you know, this is probably the most expensive thing someone's gonna buy in their lifetime.
[00:37:32] Yeah. Uh, and so they deserve to know what they're getting and they should have all the. upfront, right? I think there's a movement in healthcare to make it more transparent about pricing and what they get. And same with us. Like what are they really getting out of this experience? Um, you know, the more we can give them that's accurate upfront to help shape realistic expectations about it, uh, the better we'll all be.[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Jaime Hunt: There is, um, somebody I follow on Twitter and I hope she's listening. I think she's a listener, um, who posted a screenshot and she didn't share what institution it was, but it was talking about, um, like it described the Parent plus loan as like, oh, I saw that. Yes. . Yeah. It was like a parent
[00:38:17] Victoria O'Malley: gra I must follow the same person.
[00:38:20] Or you retweeted it cuz I saw that and
[00:38:22] Jaime Hunt: it was, yeah. Yeah. It was like, it described it. The the parent grant or something, and it was like, student help help or parent help. Yeah. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, that's not, that's really misleading because it would be easy to read that as you're gonna get this $17,000 help.
[00:38:41] Right? No, it's the parent is the
[00:38:44] Victoria O'Malley: help. Right. And it goes back to the vocabulary thing and thinking about all these first generation students trying to come through and they're not gonna know. Their parents aren't gonna know, and they're gonna fall into these traps. . Yeah. I don't know how much influence the marketing and communication team can [00:39:00] have on those types of communications, but if we can get in there and, and help make sure that doesn't happen, we'll all be better for it.
[00:39:09] I
[00:39:09] Jaime Hunt: think at at smaller schools it's a little bit easier for us to get. into those spaces. I know that was the case when I was at a smaller institution. I could get in there and say, no, I need to look at all the financial aid letters. Mm-hmm. , I need to see. Mm-hmm. have some me or somebody on my team review all of those things.
[00:39:25] And at bigger schools I think it's a little bit tougher, but we can educate, we can talk about why it's important. We can raise awareness of, you know, some of the, the legal challenges that have been out there and Right. Just some of the ethical. issues that, I mean, that's just horrible calling it student help and
[00:39:45] Victoria O'Malley: parent help.
[00:39:46] That's right. I mean, yeah, you might end up on Twitter or in a Facebook parent group, , right. You know, or a legal battle. So I mean, there are multiple levels of damage that you could face for something like that. And it all damages [00:40:00] our reputation as an institution. So it's important for everyone to be.
[00:40:04] Jaime Hunt: when, when you mentioned Facebook groups, I think about parent Facebook groups and how, as we're talking, I'm realizing so much of the parent complaint, um, or so many of the parent complaints in, uh, parent Facebook groups seem to be around that.
[00:40:23] Not measuring up to expectations, Pete, right? Like they're talking about like, you know, my kid has, you know, this food station has been closed all semester and we were told that they would have access to blah, blah, blah, right? And we don't, and. You know, we read those and we kind of like, I roll my eyes cuz it's like, can you let your kid advocate for themselves a little bit.
[00:40:43] But, but it is that we've, we've talked about in the brochures that you have, you know, this great dining experience. Then we close part of a dining hall for a whole year.
[00:40:54] Victoria O'Malley: Yeah. Doesn't add up. So take that part outta the brochure if you know it's gonna be closed that year. Right. [00:41:00] And they'll talk, I mean, get on Yik Yak or get on Facebook and you see the real experience in, in a.
[00:41:06] Window into the psyche of the students and their parents. When you get onto social media and it's all out there, you know, there are Google reviews and Yelp reviews about every institution. And so there's more power in the hands of the consumer, right? And they are consumers at the end of the day. And so recognizing it'll be out there.
[00:41:24] So are you proud of what we're putting out? And you're not gonna catch everything, but just keeping those things in mind, um, as part of your checklist really. , how
[00:41:35] Jaime Hunt: would you go about educating your campus about some of these things? About expectations? Because in most cases, we're not the only people talking about the student
[00:41:45] Victoria O'Malley: experience, right?
[00:41:48] Right. It starts with us. It's that self-regulation, right? You're communicators your marketing team, anybody who's communicating on behalf of the institution, if there. , um, any kind of training you can give [00:42:00] or, uh, presentations just about how to examine your claims, how to understand that words matter and what you're promising and matters and what the, what the damage could be, right?
[00:42:15] And so establishing maybe ethical standards for your team and then going on a road show that might help. Uh, and just bringing it to the forefront of conversation. I think just making sure you're the one, you're the voice at the table when you're having. interdisciplinary meetings or, um, cross-campus meetings with folks outside of your area to make sure that you're bringing that up.
[00:42:34] And if you're developing a new program and you're gonna put the marketing out there, they make a, a faculty member makes a claim, double check it, push them on it, make sure that it's real, uh, and, and get the data to support it because it's better you catch it than the parent in the Facebook group or the person on Twitter, or the prospective student.
[00:42:55] You know, thought they were getting one thing and then they got there and it was a totally different [00:43:00] experience.
[00:43:01] Jaime Hunt: Really early in this conversation we talked a little bit about word of mouth and how important word of mouth is, and those, those not living up to expectation pieces, I think are big moments where word of mouth.
[00:43:16] Can go bad. Mm-hmm. , I'm thinking about a, um, I'm not gonna name which institution it was, but at a previous institution, um, the program was really great, but the, um, the experience that students were having, with all of the backend stuff, the registering for classes, like their tuition bills were sometimes getting messed up, blah, blah, blah.
[00:43:40] They were having all of these issues and so it was, um, a nursing program. Mm-hmm. , so it was a lot of nurses telling other nurses, don't go into this program. I had nothing but problems. The faculty were great, but Right. I had to spend all these hours on the phone dealing with. These mess up on things and, um, the enrollment [00:44:00] in the program tanked over.
[00:44:01] Oh sure. You know, like a five year period because people, there were an abundance of these types of programs. They were all online at schools all over the state and across the country, and they were having this negative experience and telling each other about it. And that is the only thing that really changed and that made the enrollment drop a lot.
[00:44:22] So you really can't underestimate. Word of mouth,
[00:44:25] Victoria O'Malley: and that's a long term issue, right? It's gonna take a lot to rebuild trust and to have people go back through that process and feel confident to share it with their colleagues because it's a reflection on them too. Like if they're recommending somebody to go into a program and then they have this poor service quality experience on the back end, I mean, that's a reflection on a person giving the recommendation.
[00:44:48] So that'll be a long time to fix. .
[00:44:52] Jaime Hunt: Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, it's kind of when you think about if you give, um, a reference for somebody and then they like embezzle from the company, [00:45:00] right? You're mortified, right? Because Right. You put your name out
[00:45:02] Victoria O'Malley: there. Exactly. You have to be so careful with that. And then recognizing service quality is how students perceive the brand and perceive their experience.
[00:45:11] It's not just the classroom, it's all of those other things that contribute to it. I had a participant say, , uh, had several learning management systems throughout their master's program. Oh gosh. Can you imagine? Jumping from canvas to blackboard to fill in the blank learning management system. And that just totally derailed their experience.
[00:45:31] And, and it, it made it so they didn't wanna recommend it to anybody. That wasn't the faculty's fault, that wasn't, you know, the marketing department's fault. Mm-hmm. , that was just, and, and there might have been a reason for it, but it, it really influenced in a negative. , that person's experience, and it's a backend issue that ends up having a major ripple effect.
[00:45:51] And, and
[00:45:52] Jaime Hunt: then you hear people say things like, you know, well, it's just a, it's just a, it's just a, you know, and it's like those just [00:46:00] are, can be really big to somebody. Right. And they can have a really big impact on the overall percept. what they're experiencing.
[00:46:09] Victoria O'Malley: Sure. I mean, think about an online program.
[00:46:11] You're miles and miles away and your only way to interact with your classmates or your faculty is through the learning management system. So if that's not working or if you're unfamiliar with it, that was something that was interesting when I was talking to participants. There were unrealistic expectations set about the technology, uh, going into the programs and how a couple of them mentioned that like they wish they got some kind of crash course on just how to use that.
[00:46:35] There was, these were adult learners. Keep in mind. , some of them were coming back to school after years and years, and they didn't know how to use these systems, and that totally detracted from their experience, even if the content of the course was good and, and that was delivering on expectations. They just, they were floundering with the technology piece.
[00:46:55] So that's where marketers could come in potentially, right? And, and help shape those [00:47:00] expectations. Give a free demo. to a class, uh, prior to enrollment so they can get a feel for the learning management system that can help set the expectations, get them, you know, familiar with the tool. And, uh, that could be a marketing task, you know, that helps out.
[00:47:18] Jaime Hunt: Yeah, I mean, you could create introductory videos for, you know, something that people could do on demand to learn how to do things. There's help with walkthroughs. How to do stuff, right. I mean, there's just so much that we can contribute to make that a better experience. Right? Yeah. I, uh, uh, it's just I love this conversation around student experience and I just think, um, there's just so much we as marketers can influence that we're maybe not always thinking about.
[00:47:47] Victoria O'Malley: Right. Right. I mean, even thinking through one other, you know, outcomes of my research that I made sure that we implemented when I was at the University of Denver was having a syllabus library. and making sure people could see the syllabi before [00:48:00] they enrolled in the program so they would understand what the expectations would be related to assignments and the type of content they'd be learning what their week to week would look like.
[00:48:09] And it didn't have all the details in the syllabus, but it was pretty close. And that was something we learned through the research was people wanted to know what they were getting into at the, at the class level. And so being more transparent with things like. , that was a marketing task, right? We put that on the website.
[00:48:26] We created the syllabus library and, and had to do that lift. And, um, that really helped, helps people understand what they're getting into and shape the expectations. That
[00:48:36] Jaime Hunt: is a fantastic idea. I love that idea. I think about the number of classes in my undergrad that I registered for, went to the first class, read the syllabus, and then dropped and signed up for a different class.
[00:48:47] That could Neat. That would've saved me all of that if I could. Just so much
[00:48:50] Victoria O'Malley: it. Yeah. And then from, you know, the backend side of enrollment, just, you know, you're, you wanna save the melt from happening, right? Yeah. So that's [00:49:00] gonna help and have a huge ripple effect if you. Set those expectations and not just make it so they have to talk to somebody or talk to an advisor to do it.
[00:49:07] Make it readily available and at their fingertips, because they might not even be talking to you. You get all these stealth applicants, right? They're not always gonna pick up the phone, so put as much as you can on the website and, and let them run free with it.
[00:49:21] Jaime Hunt: Totally gonna bring that to the office tomorrow.
[00:49:23] Excellent. Uh, , are there any resources that you recommend for people interested in exp the customer experience?
[00:49:30] Victoria O'Malley: Sure. Yeah. I mean, the Journal of Marketing for Higher Education is always having articles related to student experience and the marketing side of it. I think, you know, some of their recent articles even just have a focus.
[00:49:45] Satisfaction student experience and, and how as marketers or communicators, we can shape that inside higher ed. The Century Foundation does a lot of, uh, I dare say it, like exposes about , uh, how not to do it. So we can learn a lot [00:50:00] from that. Uh, and then I, I get a lot of value just out of, you know, the associations that I'm involved with and trying to talk to people across the country doing similar work to, to see how.
[00:50:12] Finding out from students what the experience is like and, and getting different tactics for how to make sure we're being authentic in, in what we're promising to people.
[00:50:23] Jaime Hunt: I don't know if this is, um, genius or crackpot, but I, I think maybe searching for schools that have put their syllabuses online and find the readings that they're, um, putting out there, you know?
[00:50:34] Yes. You know, customer experience. Courses, you know? Yes. Probably readings recommended in the
[00:50:42] Victoria O'Malley: syllabi. Oh yeah. I mean, there's a whole book I used for my dissertation. Where is it? I saw my bookshelf right behind me. It's just called Satisfaction. It's by Oliver. It's an oldie but a goodie. And it's just, it's actually a library book.
[00:50:54] I better return this, but, um, don't tell [00:51:00] anybody. But yeah, I mean, a behavioral perspective on the consumer. It's called satisfaction. Just give that a read. That's where you're gonna learn a little bit. , you know, expectation, confirmation theory, and that post-purchase perception of, of whether or not expectations were met.
[00:51:16] Jaime Hunt: That's, that's awesome. That's fantastic. So if people have questions for you or just wanna follow you, where can they find you? Sure.
[00:51:22] Victoria O'Malley: I'm on Twitter Vic O'Malley or on LinkedIn as Victoria O'Malley. And, uh, feel free to email me at vo O'Malley minds dot
[00:51:32] Jaime Hunt: ed. Awesome. Well, as always listeners, you can find me on Twitter at Jamie Hunt i m c, that's j A I m E H U N T I M C on LinkedIn at Jamie Hunt, um, on my website at the higher ed cmo.com.
[00:51:47] Um, and all over the place. In the Unify network, and please join in the conversation about this. I would love to hear about your perceptions of the student experience on your campus, things that you've done to help shape that [00:52:00] perception to make sure it's aligned with reality. I would love to hear that conversation.
[00:52:04] You can use the hashtag higher ed CMO on Twitter and LinkedIn to joining the conversation. And, um, thank you so much Victoria for coming on the show. It's been such a pleasure to talk with. Thank you so much, Jamie. I appreciate it. Awesome. Well, everybody, let's go out and bust some silos.
[00:52:28] Zach Busekrus: Hey y'all, Zach Here from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO with Jaime Hunt. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leading a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.
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About the Episode
The what's what...
In this episode, Jaime Hunt and Victoria O'Malley discuss the importance of aligning brand promises with the reality of the student experience. The conversation explores the risks of failing to deliver on promises, including loss of reputation and – in a worst-case scenario – litigation. This episode provides insights for marketers and educators alike about the importance of setting realistic and authentic expectations and aligning brand promises with the reality of the student experience. Takeaways include:
- Tips for creating an authentic brand story
- An understanding of the importance of word-of-mouth in brand building
- Ideas for how marketers can impact the student experience
- Ways to avoid predatory and unethical marketing practices
- Insights into the ways online students view the student experience
This episode is brought to you by our friends at Mindpower:
Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO is sponsored by our friends at Mindpower - a full-service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly thirty years of needle-moving, thought-provoking, research-fueled creative and strategy. Mindpower is women-founded and owned, WBENC certified, nationally recognized, and serves the social sector – higher education, healthcare, non-profits, and more. The Mindpower team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experience creators. From market research to brand campaigns to recruitment to fundraising, the agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. Learn more about Mindpower here!
About the Enrollify podcast Network:
Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you’ll like other Enrollify shows too!
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About the Podcast
Transformation has been a hallmark of Jaime's career. In nearly 20 years working in higher education, she been part of four university rebrandings and five website overhauls. She's been hands-on in the development of an integrated marketing communications model at three institutions. As a result, she has gained extensive expertise in brand strategy, recruitment marketing, internal communications, crisis communications, issues management, online innovation, and media relations. She also has in her portfolio government relations and, for two years, she oversaw a public radio station. She is currently the vice president for university communications and chief marketing officer for Old Dominion University, a 23,000-student public R1 research institution in Coastal Virginia. Prior to her current role, she was the vice president and chief communications and marketing officer for Miami University (the one in not-as-sunny Oxford, Ohio). She also served in marketing and media relations leadership roles at Winston-Salem State University (North Carolina), Radford University (Virginia), the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh, and Northwestern Health Sciences University (Minnesota). Her background also includes more than four years as a print journalist and three years working for nonprofits and in nonprofit consulting. She earned my bachelor's degree in journalism from the University of Minnesota and her master's degree in integrated marketing communications from West Virginia University.
Dr. Victoria O’Malley has marketing experience in non-profit, B2B, and B2C environments, with particular focus on higher education marketing. Victoria serves as the Chief Marketing Officer at Colorado School of Mines and previously led marketing and branding efforts at the University of Colorado Denver as the Assistant Vice Chancellor of Marketing and Brand Strategy and prior to that, as the Senior Director of Marketing and Communications at the University of Denver's University College. She is a freelance marketing consultant and offers strategic insights, creative tactics, and analytics knowledge to students, stakeholders, and clients.
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Mindpower is a full-service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly thirty years of needle-moving, thought-provoking, research-fueled creative and strategy. Mindpower is women-founded and owned, WBENC certified, nationally recognized, and serves the social sector – higher education, healthcare, non-profits, and more. The Mindpower team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experience creators. From market research to brand campaigns to recruitment to fundraising, the agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. Learn more about the amazing work Mindpower is doing here!
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Host Jaime Hunt engages in candid and insightful conversations with leading minds in the field, exploring not just the nuts and bolts of marketing, but also the diverse and often unexpected challenges and stories that define higher education marketing.
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