The Art of Conflict Management

Full Transcript

Episode 35 - Carol Bowser 

[00:00:00] Jaime: Hi, I'm a higher Ed CMO, and I have a confession to make. Managing conflict is not the favorite part of my job, which I'm guessing is probably true for everybody listening right now. It is, however, a really necessary part of the job, and I think that sometimes, um, we can minimize the importance of managing conflict or we can do a surface level management of conflict.

[00:00:26] But in a lot of cases, that just causes some pretty significant challenges for us and for our teams. And honestly, at the end of the day, when we're not dealing with conflict appropriately, we're creating issues that could, uh, impact the work that we're doing and impact the work of our institution, um, and our interactions with students, our interactions with faculty, um, and with each other.

[00:00:50] And so I hope you enjoyed this episode where I have a conversation with Carol Bowser, who is the founder of Conflict Management Strategies, [00:01:00] as she talks to us about ways that leaders can manage conflict. In the workplace.

[00:01:23] Welcome to Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO, the podcast designed for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jaime Hunt, and I am so excited to have this opportunity to share insights and inspiration. With Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO, I'm designing a different kind of podcasting experience. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education marketing.

[00:01:49] After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter by using the hashtag higher ed cmo. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to [00:02:00] follow me on Twitter at at Jaime Hunt, i m c, that's j A I m E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to connect.

[00:02:16] So I'm so happy to be here with Carol Bowser, who is the founder of Conflict Management Strategies. We're gonna have a wonderful conversation I predict about managing conflict in the workplace. Hi Carol. How are you? 

[00:02:28] Carol: I am doing. 

[00:02:31] Jaime: I am so delighted about this conversation, but before we dive into talking about conflict management strategies, can you tell us a little bit about your career journey?

[00:02:41] Carol: Absolutely. And like all journeys there might, there is a plan and then there was what actually happened. And if we look kind of in retrospect, it kind of makes sense. So I started my career journey that kind of led me here. By going to law school and becoming interested [00:03:00] prior to law school about this idea about mediation where litigating or parties who are in dispute go ahead and try to resolve their issues, not through the legal system, but through a third party neutral.

[00:03:17] And I really was intrigued by that idea because I thought, well, that kind of empowers people to be part of the solution because it's, nobody really likes anything enforced on them. And so I thought, well, this, I really kind of like this. And I had some career experiences where I thought, I think it's important for me to understand rights and responsibilities within the employment relationship.

[00:03:41] So I took those things together and I went to law school thinking that I maybe if I wanted to, like I. Resolve disputes that, you know, maybe a judge, and then learning more about what judges do with their time. I'm like, yeah, that's, no, no, no, no, no, no. And so I ended up going to law [00:04:00] school and focused on what I.

[00:04:03] Originally got, took me there of like the rights and responsibilities within the employment relationship. And so I practiced employment law. I was also, um, marrying up my interest in mediation and mediating cases with, with the law. And I was part of a contract mediator program for the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

[00:04:26] And your listeners may know that that's a federal agency that, um, deals with the laws that govern the workplace specifically around anti-discrimination, anti-harassment, anti-retaliation. And so I got a chance to kind of marry those two things and I. Practiced law for a while and I'm like, Ugh, this is no fun at all.

[00:04:50] In fact, the things that I liked the most were sitting down with my potential clients and saying, tell me what your story is. Tell me what you wanna have happen. And sometimes their [00:05:00] story and what they wanted to have happen wasn't like a legal issue, but it was still really, really taxing to the person. I think it was damaging to the working relationship.

[00:05:09] I think it was damaging to the workplace. And in about 2002 I, I stopped the practice of law and slowly over time did this kind of entrepreneurial journey to form what has eventually become conflict management strategies where I help organizations either prevent or address. Workplace conflict, or as I affectionately referred to it, the sucking vortex that pissed off.

[00:05:37] Jaime: I love that. I think any leader, whether you're in higher ed or otherwise, is very familiar with conflict. I mean, it's just part of interacting with other human beings and in all kinds of environments. But in the workplace, when we spend 40 or more hours around each other, you know, conflict is probably somewhat inevitable, but there's a lot of different [00:06:00] kinds of conflict.

[00:06:00] You know, there's interpersonal disputes, team disagreements. How do you approach each type of conflict differently, and what strategies do you employ to address them most effectively? 

[00:06:12] Carol: I'm so glad you asked that question. And before I answer it, I wanna highlight specifically with higher ed, because I do think higher ed is a unique workforce in that you have.

[00:06:25] Folks who are tenured employees, really no other place is their tenure and the tension and some of the working relationships that happen during the tenure process and after the tenure process can cause organizational issues, can call, cause interpersonal issues for some who are public universities.

[00:06:46] Then you have all of the issues surrounding the fact that you are, you know, a public entity and some of the organizations now in particular in higher ed, you're seeing movements toward unionization, [00:07:00] unionization of teaching assistance. And then also we look at some of the staff that might be, you know, uh, facilities or different things that have union.

[00:07:10] Some are non-union, and then we have long-term staff, and then we also have a. You know, it's, it's higher ed in most cases, especially if you have residential programs, you're effectively managing a city. You're managing a, you're managing a C city and a special event center and public works and longtime employees, short-time employees, a very vocal, um, client base.

[00:07:36] And it can be particularly difficult. And Ralph, so I just wanna kind of, you know, give a shout out to higher ed that, you know, if you think your workplace is difficult and unique in a lot of ways, it's whether it's a four year private or a public technical college, very, very different. So to go to your question, like for those interpersonal disputes, I look at a couple of things like, [00:08:00] okay, how is the work getting done?

[00:08:02] Is this in some way, do people not feel successful at work or are there issues? And I will tell you, there are always issues in disputes about trust. There are always issues about not feeling respected. And I think that the issues about trust and respect and conflict, they're really interwoven and they're kind of hard to pick apart.

[00:08:29] However, if you feel about not being trusted or not being respected or, you know, feeling impeded in your ability to do your work, the, that's huge. And then a lot of times if there's team disagreements, I think it also goes to trust and respect. But I also think it goes to this idea of, you know, well how do we do the work and who is supposed to be doing the work?

[00:08:57] And I see this in a variety of contexts, whether it's, [00:09:00] you know, at the executive team level or down to the departmental team level. Um, including, you know, who gets to make those decisions. How do they get to make those decisions? Because again, you know, looking on the faculty side, the entire institutions rely on the fact that faculty members can get along collaboratively and with consensus and make decisions, and that doesn't always happen.

[00:09:25] And then also on kind of more on the staff side, it's, you know, I think right now, and maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but people are really, really concerned about budget and about the viability of higher ed and about, uh, budget cuts. And then we had covid and people are really super, super stressed out.

[00:09:46] And so sometimes I'm looking about like, well, how much is that stress adding to the mix of conflict? Or how much is the stress causing the conflict? Or how much is the stress impacting people's [00:10:00] ability to be able to even have the conversations? So that was kind of a long answer, but I, I look at a lot about how, and I look about a lot, about who, who, you know, the role, the roles that people have with within the teams or within the organizations.

[00:10:15] And is there clarity? Is there agreement on who's supposed to be doing something and how they're supposed to be doing it? And I'll tell you in conflict, no, no, there is not agreement on who is supposed to be doing it and how they are supposed to be doing it. And thus we have the conflict. 

[00:10:33] Jaime: Well, in some con conflicts, it feels like are around those issues of, I thought you were gonna do this, you didn't do this, you were supposed to do it.

[00:10:40] That kind of thing. And then sometimes I feel like you have personality conflicts where there's people that just don't like each other or don't respect each other or don't trust each other. And are you able to kind of suss out which conflict you're dealing with as you know, someone who's in conflict resolution?

[00:10:58] Yes 

[00:10:58] Carol: and no. [00:11:00] I'm sorry that was like such a lawyer answer. It was kind of the, and, and the lawyer, consultant, mediator, answer, it's always, well, it depends, right? So I think, but let me give you a couple of, of highlight things and one is kind of based on my personal bias. One, if we say, well it's just a personality, then we're kind of abdicated that they have any control or any influence in what they do.

[00:11:21] And I think you absolutely do have control and influence over what you do. And the other thing is that, well, if it's just their personality or this is just my personality, then you're kind of giving them all of the power and it doesn't really become collaborative and it kind of is a little, and feeling disempowered.

[00:11:40] I don't wanna label somebody and say they're playing the victim. What I will say is, you know, it can, it can feel kind of dis disempowering. So where can we find sources of leverage and what kind of tools can we do to have it so that people feel successful at work? There we go. The related [00:12:00] point is that there is other influencing factors.

[00:12:04] So for example, let's not, I don't wanna pretend that there is not mental illness, that people have mental illness and you know, people who have mental illness. You know, they work and whether it is something suffering with depression or anxiety or the things that may be kind of more, for lack of a better term, shorter term ish.

[00:12:28] But then there's also, there are addiction issues within with that people have. And so a lot of the times when I talk about conflict resolution skills, I'm, I am not there to diagnose anyone. I am not there to prescribe treatment. I am trying to say, can we try to find out what's going on and can we try to develop a path forward and maybe some frameworks and some tools that people can either use independently or in concert or maybe like [00:13:00] toddlers in parallel play, just so not to be able to aggravate each other.

[00:13:06] And it's, I think sometimes people have well-meaning attempts that they'll say, well, let's do communication training, or let's do team building. I think when people are looking at communication and team building, it's a very safe way to say, things aren't going well here and we need a fix. So maybe look past that.

[00:13:26] It's just communication training or just team building to say, is there some type of deeper conflict or impasse going on that maybe we need some a, a different tool to bring. Similarly speaking, if people don't feel appreciated having, you know, appreciation or recognition programs are great, but appreciation and recognition programs will not solve underlying conflict.

[00:13:50] So, um, again, I think that was a little bit of a long answer to, you know, I try to look. And find out where people are and provide tools. [00:14:00] But being very clear of, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not there to diagnose. And you know, quite frankly, I'm not sure people in the workplace should be diagnosed and other people at all.

[00:14:12] That's what other types of professionals 

[00:14:13] Jaime: are there for. When you were talking about that instinct to do team building or, you know, those types of things, I, I'm raising my hand and saying I'm guilty of that. You know, I've worked in environments where there's been, where I've been the leader and it, there have been people where they sort of have broken into two factions and it's us against them and it's, you know, I've tried to do team building exercises, I've tried to mediate conversations, but how do you get to that underlying conflict, the underlying cause of the conflict to be able to actually resolve it?

[00:14:50] Carol: Great. Well first of all we're saying good and keem. I'm not saying team building isn't, isn't good. To be able to have a positive shared experience is a foundation to be able to build [00:15:00] on, and when things get sticky, there should be some tools and some guidelines to be able to rely on to get through the sticky stuff and sometimes the sticky stuff to kind of get to the root cause.

[00:15:11] I always. Go-to even when I was, you know, an attorney and when I was E E O C mediator. My go-to question is, tell me about what your expectations were of your boss. Tell me about what your expectations were or are of your teamwork, or tell me what your expectations are of the leadership team. Because I find out that some of the root cause is conflict, always has an unmet expectation.

[00:15:36] And if we can kind of find out what that was, then it kind of gets to the root cause. So I expected them to do this because they did this instead of this, I no longer have trust in them, or they did this and they did this, and therefore I don't feel or comfortable coming and talking to them because of how they reacted to it.

[00:15:55] So I always go to. Unmet expectations and [00:16:00] then start kind of pulling those apart and finding out if we even have the same expectations of each other. And then it goes back to the how. Well, how are you demonstrating those? How are you telling people this? What are you looking for that tells you that they are trustworthy?

[00:16:16] I think that those are good things, and I will say in any organization there are some things, systems or processes or people just not having the time to do stuff. Those can influence it as well. And being able to, you know, talk frankly and try to figure out where we have the ability to influence some things and where we can't change a policy or process, but we can certainly talk about ways to navigate the difficulty.

[00:16:44] Jaime: That's really helpful. That's really insightful. You alluded earlier to higher ed being sort of a, a potential pressure cooker where you're in a situation where there's high stress. And I'm thinking about, I had a conversation actually earlier today with a colleague whose [00:17:00] institution is cutting 20% of its staff and it mm-hmm.

[00:17:03] Announced it today. And it's not happening until later this fall. And I'm imagining that the next several months for every office at that institution, people are gonna be keyed up. 'cause they may not have it. 

[00:17:17] Carol: People are freaking out right now. I have seen, oh my gosh. Yeah. So, oh, I'm just having such a reaction to that.

[00:17:26] Yeah. Um, I have very many reactions to that. So, and I have seen this particularly in higher ed. It's just because, And it, the, the specter of I am going to lose my job is terrifying. And then it's also where am I gonna go? Who's gonna stay? Who's gonna go? Is the work and the workplace going to be the same that I even want to stay?

[00:17:53] I think that, I think that that is an underlying fear that in many people, many organizations, they [00:18:00] will say they will lead with the, we're doing a 20% cut. I worked with one organization where it was a state organization and they actually a state organ, a state higher ed and a private higher ed, where they needed to do budget cuts and there was.

[00:18:15] Consternation among, well what budget cut? Is it 20% across the board? Is it some, um, staff more than others? And there can be consternation about how the decision is made because the people who are impacted have no influence on the decision. So that feels hugely disempowering. Then they don't know what the work is gonna look like.

[00:18:35] And, um, if there's no changes to the expectation of what work needs to get done, then it feels overwhelming and we don't know how to surmount this. Um, and then I also was thinking about this today when, um, uh, I was preparing for our conversation in that, um, when I do some work in higher ed, [00:19:00] a lot of the staff I think went there thinking this was a potentially forever job and.

[00:19:09] I think that's one of the quirks of higher ed in that a lot of people go there to do a forever, forever job. And so the prospect that they may be cut or they may be let go, it's kind of a shake to the system. And generally they don't, you know, cut tenured staff. They may cut programs, but if you're, you know, not tenured staff, tenured faculty, but if you're tenured faculty, once you hit tenure, you there re there are no lateral transfers at all, so they don't really leave.

[00:19:43] Um, and so there may be a feeling of this isn't fair. You, you know, going through this isn't fair, this isn't right. And so there, there are feelings of maybe injustice about the system that they work in, but that's also kind of the nature of the system [00:20:00] that they work in. So the level of stress, um, has gotta be going through the roof.

[00:20:06] Now, I'm not sure if people are going out drinking or just going home and laying on the floor and figuring out, you know, the what, what if scenarios, which are bad to go through at all, but it's just, it's not, doesn't feel good where you're compelled to and maybe even coerced to do it versus feeling as though you voluntarily choose to do it.

[00:20:29] Jaime: Yeah, yeah. What advice would you give to leaders of teams in that situation? 

[00:20:35] Carol: Well, I mean, I think one of the, okay, so the first one is do not make any promises that somebody's job is not gonna get cut because you don't know, you maybe don't know the, the situations or the decisions, or quite frankly, it may not be, that may be HR and the CFOs, and it may not be your, it may not be your decision to be able to do it.

[00:20:56] So I think please don't give any false assurances of it's not gonna be you, [00:21:00] or, I wish it's not you because you know, it's just that, that I think can create some drama. I think one piece of advice is just to acknowledge that it is hugely stressful just to acknowledge that if, well, when it does happen and we start seeing what the lay of the land is, we're gonna talk about this and we're gonna figure out that who and that what, who's gonna be doing what, how we're gonna be doing it, and be able to say, we're gonna take a methodical approach to be able to figure out what work needs to get done and how we're gonna, and how we're gonna go about doing it.

[00:21:37] I think in those situations, leaders can be empathetic and they're looking to you to provide some direction. I think one of the major challenges is that at maybe at this point in time, the leaders just don't know and they can't give answers. And this swimming in a sea of ambiguity freaks people out. And I've seen it working with my higher ed clients when [00:22:00] they're faced with the prospect, they're looking at the enrollment, they're looking at the tuition dollars, they're looking at, they're looking very seriously at programs.

[00:22:07] And it's scary and people are really kind of freaked out. And just being able to know, just being able to deal with the stress and whether that is providing wellness breaks, talking about, you know, providers to be able to deal with the stress, you know, allowing people to turn their screen off and take a walk or what, bringing kind of wellness to the fore.

[00:22:32] I think that's it, because if you don't have answers and the ambiguity is freaking people out because a lot of people like to know and they like to plan. So I mean, maybe even just giving explicit permission of. You know, we don't have to be a forever employer. So we can look about, if you want to look at what the future might look like someplace else or what a different role within the university say, you are perfectly free to be able to do that.

[00:22:58] You know, and we have [00:23:00] resources here to be able to do that. And if that is gonna make you more comfortable that you have a plan B or you have a plan C, great. And let's also make a plan that you know, that how, for those who are staying, how we're gonna go about doing it. I think that gives a little bit of a, a little bit more of assurance that it's not just a complete C of ambiguity.

[00:23:21] Jaime: That's fantastic advice. I, I've had to lay people off before and as a leader, I think being in those conversations is so challenging and it's so, um, difficult to maintain your composure and it's something I've had to learn over the course of my career. But do you have any tips for leaders on how to maintain composure in some of those difficult conversations?

[00:23:44] Carol: Absolutely. So first and foremost, own it that any type of conversation with whether it's conflict or layoff, that there is an emotional component to it. I think, you know, as human beings, we're thinking and feeling, you know, at a molecular level. So it's, you [00:24:00] know, not just the facts and only the facts, but this also goes to conflict conversations where you think that there's gonna be some pushback or that they're not gonna like the news or they're gonna challenge you.

[00:24:10] Take a few minutes and figure out, like, honestly, how do you feel about this? Did you grow up in a household where there was high levels of emotion and it was, you were completely comfortable with it? Or did you grow up in a place where it was scary? So I, when I'm gonna steal this from one of my dear, dear friends, the amazing Michael Ann Valterra, the Seattle money coach, where I learned about, about this concept of a money story like you have, we have, when we get certain messaging about money, and I'm like, you know what?

[00:24:41] I bet everybody has a conflict story. I bet everybody has a story about this is how I feel about conflict. This is how I felt about conflict at work, at this is how I feel about conflict at home. And we bring those feelings and those values and the behaviors to all of those conversations. [00:25:00] So first and foremost, think about like, how do you feel about conflict?

[00:25:03] How do you feel about having this conversation? Do you feel like this is the worst part of my job ever and I hate the fact that I'm doing it? I hate the fact that somebody didn't get their act together, could get the funding to be able to keep our positions. Especially, you know, Judy, because Judy is a rockstar and Judy was my heir apparent and she pulls things together.

[00:25:24] And Judy's thing is, I was like, ah. So I mean, I think first kind of get clear on how you're feeling about it because your emotions are gonna find a way to come through. And then the second thing is like, what are the points that you want that you wanna make to be able to say, You know, I am sorry this is happening to you.

[00:25:41] I do think that we can do this and let's give, let's give that news cleanly, but then also be ready that people may have, you know, emotions and let them feel the emotions. If they feel it's crap and they don't feel it's fair, you know what you can say. I get it. I [00:26:00] understand. And you can feed back to them both their facts that they're saying and the emotions.

[00:26:05] And you can say, I understand. I understand that you don't feel this is fair. I understand that you are so mad and so upset and so hurt by this. I get it. And that allows people to kind of feel heard, but then also allows you to be able to, you know, to process it. So we're not hiding from the emotion. We're actually identifying what the emotion is and reflecting it back as well as the facts that they're saying.

[00:26:32] I think that's huge. And it also allows people, it might not be like an instant off switch of that, but at least kind of dialing it down. And I wanna be clear. It's not like, yeah, I'd be pissed off too. Yeah, I'd be sad too, you know? But it's just to acknowledge it. And here's another tip that I give to people when they're uncomfortable dealing with high levels of emotion, or especially people start to cry.

[00:26:55] It's a mediator trick that I learned from one of my dear mentors. And I use it and [00:27:00] I share it, and I'm gonna share it with you. Have a box of tissue. If it's like, I mean these, hopefully these conversations are happening in person, but being able to have a box of tissue and just don't say anything. Just slide it across.

[00:27:12] You're giving permission of emotions are, okay. I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it. I'm going to give this to you if you need it. And you just say, let me know when you're ready to continue. If it is virtual or something, you could say, do you want a minute to grab a tissue? Do you wanna grab a, you know, a glass of water and I'm gonna wait here and I'm gonna wait until you're ready.

[00:27:37] And you just, you just sit there. You just sit there calmly. Wait. If you need to sing the ABCs in your head, if you need to do whatever it is to be able to stay present and be patient until they are ready, I think. That is particularly helpful for two reasons. Again, it acknowledges the emotion. You're not, you know, feeling [00:28:00] disabled by it.

[00:28:01] But the other thing too, as one of my tennis coaches told me, and I was an awful tennis player, the person that controls the pace controls the game. So when you're saying whenever you are ready, you're giving back someone some sense of, of control or power in the conversation where it's feeling pretty powerless because they didn't make the decision, they didn't make the choice.

[00:28:23] And at least, you know, treating people that they have a little bit of at least control of when the conversation continues and how long that conversation's going to be. I, I 

[00:28:34] Jaime: love that idea of giving that power back a little bit, especially in those really difficult conversations. That's just, it makes a lot of sense and I think it, it sounds like something that would help people feel slightly more empowered in the conversation and 'cause something bad is happening to them, right?

[00:28:52] From their perspective, something really bad is happening to them. And to have that a little bit of control in that moment. That makes total [00:29:00] sense. Um, pivoting just a little bit, some, I think conflict management requires being an effective communicator. Are there any communication techniques that you use to deescalate conflict or encourage constructive dialogue?

[00:29:16] Carol: Yeah, I do. In fact, I think that's all what I really liked about the mediation and mediation training, because it was all about managing emotion, having kind of a structure to the conversation and trying to figure out what's important to people. There's a couple things, particularly around conflict. I have a, a couple of questions that I always go to, and one of them is, you know, can you help me understand, you know, can you help, can you help me understand what, what's going on here?

[00:29:43] Another one is, if you're feeling there's a high level of emotion, can you say, can you help me understand where, where is all this high level of emotional coming from? Because it could say, well, it's just a business decision, or it's just a change in process. But being able to just kind of try to [00:30:00] understand where they're coming from is really key.

[00:30:03] And I think also I. Trying not to persuade someone of your point of view, because then all then what you're doing is you're creating an opportunity for impasse because there's something about the American culture, and not to say that this is solely within academia, but you've got a lot of smart people and they will, they have a reason why they're very smart and they, and what they value, they, they are very much behind.

[00:30:32] And so we end up kind of getting into this debate and impasse where it's like, who gets the last word? You know, who gets to be heard? And being able to just really kind of like, so help me understand, you know, what's, what's important here? Help me understand this. I think that that starts coming from like a place of curiosity because I find that a lot of people, um, jump, jump to conclusions or they attribute [00:31:00] motive.

[00:31:00] You know, you may be right. And there's power in, you know, in being able to say, you know, kind of help me understand where this is coming from. You know, I'm making, I'm kind of making an assumption here, but I wanna test my assumption with you. So just kind of, you know, keep that curiosity cap on. And also that curiosity cap is really using your executive function, you know, your ability to collaborate and empathize and reason, and be an, an analytical as well as empathetic.

[00:31:29] I think that those are really good. So in, as difficult as the conversations could be, try to kind of keep that curiosity cap on of, you know, what is this person trying to achieve? And the other thing is, let's get beyond. They just wanna be, right? I mean, yeah, everybody. And then what else? And then what else?

[00:31:48] And then what else? And kind of keep, keep asking those questions and being able to answer those questions for yourself as well. 

[00:31:54] Jaime: I'm thinking about a time I had a staff member storm into my office and I remember [00:32:00] she put her hands flat on the desk and she was leaning over and she was saying, so and so did this, and you need to deal with this.

[00:32:07] And, you know, it, it felt as though she were yelling at me. Right. And yeah. Well she was, 

[00:32:12] Carol: she was yelling 

[00:32:13] Jaime: at you. Yeah. And so I, I paused for a second and I said, basically what you're saying, help me understand why you are yelling at me about this situation that you had. And we kind of sussed out that she felt safe with me, but not with the person she was having the problem with.

[00:32:33] So she knew that she could kind of be emotional with me, that she wouldn't be punished or I wouldn't hold it against her, but she didn't feel like she could be honest with the other person. And so it was really interesting to kind of suss that out and start to work through. Like, okay, why is that? What are things that you can do to help with the relationship that you have with this other person?

[00:32:56] What can I do to help your relationship? Which can she do [00:33:00] and get to the root of the issue, which is ties back to what you were saying in the beginning of the conversation. It was about that trust. She didn't. Feel like she could trust that other person. There's so much, like everything that you're saying is like, oh, that's, yeah, that makes total sense 

[00:33:14] Carol: to me.

[00:33:14] Yeah. Um, that's great. And so, I mean, I had two reactions to that. One, I'm so sorry that happened to you because it's like you don't feel safe and you're like, well sister, you are freaking me out right now. Um, and then the other piece is cl clearly things had had escalated that it was one thing on top of another thing on top of another thing on top of another thing, on top of another thing where she just kind of reached a breaking point.

[00:33:37] And when I look at that, I also say there was probably lots of different opportunities to have earlier conversations that were avoided, or, oh, I'm not gonna worry about it now, or I'm not gonna, you know, or it's not that big of a deal, or, I don't wanna waste my time and energy to have that conversation.

[00:33:57] And it could have been that they, she tried [00:34:00] to but didn't feel heard that she had a Yeah. But. Response to it. Yeah. But which is mean is just minimizing, which is just saying, I've tried to have that conversation. It's had no impact. And I think that that can, that can happen as well. And I do wanna highlight it.

[00:34:17] One of the, so you asked me earlier, what are like some tools, um, when I start talking to people, I say, it sounds like you're seeing a pattern of behavior because of it. Usually there are very few one-offs that are so explosive that really create bad things. They do happen. However, it's mostly that kind of building of something where it's a pattern that hasn't been addressed and has been allowed to continue.

[00:34:48] And so even if we're framing it as a pattern, because I may see a pattern, you or somebody else may just see a unrelated cluster of [00:35:00] different events that have no relation to one another, and then it's like, well, we fixed this one problem. It's done. We're good, but then there's this other problem. We fixed it, it's done.

[00:35:08] We're good. And somebody else is like, oh, no, no, no, no. As my sister would say, it's a constellation of stuff that we're putting stuff together and I feel like a constellation of that. We're making connections and we're showing a pattern. And why, aside from being safe with that other person, I would be willing to conjecture that in somehow.

[00:35:29] She thought because of your position, because of your positional power, because of your role, it was your responsibility to address it when she had tried to address it before but didn't have success. So it might have been she was looking to vent. It might been that she was looking for coaching. It might been She was.

[00:35:47] Telling you like this is how bad it is. And then I think that you did a nice job of having that curiosity of helping me understand. So we kind of unwound the emotional piece. We were able to [00:36:00] engage executive function and look at it from kind of a different perspective. That is, may not be 100% accurate, but it is least plausible.

[00:36:10] And then now to your point earlier, then we're kind of getting to a root cause. I find that there's generally multiple different root causes. There's are different ones where like, oh, okay, I, we can work on this one and try to have some strategies for it. So the takeaway is, look for a pattern and is it possible that particularly if you are in a supervisory or leadership role, that they're expecting you, one, to notice the pattern, and two, to be able to do something about it and hold that other person accountable for behavior that impedes somebody else in feeling fully successful at work.

[00:36:47] Jaime: Hey all. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO. I wanna take a moment to thank my friends at mindpower who are making season two of this inify podcast. Possible. Mindpower is a full [00:37:00] service marketing and branding firm celebrating nearly 30 years of needle moving, thought provoking, research, fueled creative, and strategy.

[00:37:08] Mindpower is woman founded and owned, W B E N C, certified nationally, recognized and serves the social sector, higher education, healthcare, non-profits, and more. The Mindpower team is made up of strategists, storytellers, and experienced creators from market research to brand campaigns, to recruitment to fundraising.

[00:37:27] The agency exists to empower clients, amplify brands, and help institutions find a strategic way forward. You can learn more about their work in the world by heading on over to Mindpower, Inc. That's M I N D P O W E R I N c.com. And be sure to tell the crew that Jamie sent you their way.

[00:37:48] That makes total sense. That makes total sense. And I hope that we were able to resolve at least some of the issues that she was having. And you know, there's always two sides too because you know, the other person [00:38:00] also had perspectives on their relationship and there's a lot to work through there. But pivoting again a little bit, one of the things that I like to do is build teams that are really diverse and including when I have the opportunity and they're the, the best candidate for the job.

[00:38:15] Bringing in people who have, who come from countries outside of the US bring bringing in people just from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds into a team. Because I just think that just. Um, makes teams so much stronger, but how do you manage conflict that comes from cultural differences? You know, it's not necessarily that somebody's doing something wrong or you know, has an approach that's negative, it's just like misunderstanding cultural nuances.

[00:38:44] Are there ways to manage through that? There 

[00:38:46] Carol: are, and I will also say that all of those relationships take place within the culture of the organization. So the organizational culture and the policies and the practices of the organization. That kind [00:39:00] of creates the sandbox and I think this happens. In all workplaces to a certain degree that I have my preferred way of doing things the way that I am most comfortable doing it.

[00:39:10] However, it's not the Carol show. Well, actually I work for myself, so it is the Carol Show. Um, however, I also have to work with my clients and I have to be cognizant of some of the more nuances of, of the power structures and of the cultures within the organizations. So I think first is that the organization kind of sets the parameters.

[00:39:31] You know, we, I I, I've heard people say it's like, you know what the sandbox looks like, or they say These are the guardrails, or this is the culture. Or this is also the shadow culture that goes on. So kind of being aware of that. And you as a leader, what kind of leadership do you wanna provide? Like how much autonomy do you wanna do?

[00:39:51] But the it part of it goes down, you know, to understanding your people and you know, maybe talk about what kind of workplaces, um, and what [00:40:00] kind of managers did you feel most successful in? You know, what kind of working situations did you feel a little bit too constraining, uh, about? So it's maybe like a getting to know you type of piece.

[00:40:13] And I think maybe teams can get to know a little bit about that. And so maybe some of it indirect team building is, you know, tell us about a situation where you felt really, really successful at work. What kind of leadership do you admire? What do you admire in coworkers? What do you want coworkers to admire in you?

[00:40:31] And you can kind of unearth that. And if there are cultural differences, like, you know, in the US culture where we tend to be direct versus other cultures, other cultures are much more indirect, much more collective based. And as the US uh, culture and the working and the workforce and the students and the people we serve becomes more diverse, we need to say like, well, [00:41:00] are we, you know, how, how are we recognizing that?

[00:41:03] Like, what's, what's, what is the dominant culture? And I think in the last three years there has been much more of a highlight of what is the dominant culture and who gets to set the dominant culture, but then also then how much freedom do the employees have to be able to change or adopt new cultural norms.

[00:41:22] Um, so for example, I was working with a client today where this client said, I am super structured. I'm super structured. I know my path. I go to the path. I'm very direct, and that's what I do. And so I reflected back and I said, okay, well, so environments that are really ambiguous, you don't really like, or people don't feel that they're prepared or they don't have a known structure that they follow, drives you crazy.

[00:41:48] He's like, oh yeah. So even things like that about how much autonomy, how much structure do we want to talk very directly or am I bringing up concerns really kind [00:42:00] of indirectly. I think that those are things, but even just like, you know, tell, tell me about, um, you know, how, you know, conflict or, you know, direct discussions or the amount of freedom that you had bring forward, you know, Or other lives.

[00:42:17] I will say that there is a diversity also, not, not only in like where, where we're pulling employees and students from, but also there are generational differences. And I will share with you that one of the things I'm seeing more of in my work, Is people who are coming up younger but also new to the workforce.

[00:42:40] And so they, uh, they need some training and development on how to be an employee and not just an independent contributor. I think that's a little bit different, and I've said that I think that we have been very good at creating folks who wanna call out people and who wanna demand change, but not very [00:43:00] good about facilitating change.

[00:43:01] And, and I think there's a role, I think empathy has a huge role in that of like, what is it that I need to understand and appreciate about this other person's experience, work experience or life experience, so that way they can feel really successful at work. Um, and um, you didn't ask this question directly, but I think a lot of people have asked me this question of like, when do we want cultural differences?

[00:43:26] How do we have people bring their true selves to work and. I've spoken with a lot of people who do the slight type of work, and even those who do investigations in the workplace, and we sit around and have lunch together and said, do we really want people to bring their true selves to work? Meaning, you know, to joke about that great movie Nine to Nine to Five, where the DNE Coleman character was the worst stereotypical boss, a maniacal, sexist, egotistical bigot, you know?

[00:43:51] And so there are people with lots of different opinions, which may or may not align with the values. So do we really want people to bring their [00:44:00] true selves to work all the time? And the answer is no. We don't. There are cultural parameters within the organization and there's some things that legally you cannot do at work.

[00:44:11] So it's a lot. I think it's along the lines of are we creating structures and opening things up that where people can bring their brain power to work to be able to do the work better? And I think that's, I, I think the conversation has, we've adopted language that makes it seem a lot more expansive, but it's, what are we doing that we honor different thinking styles, different cultural priorities, different speaking styles, different ways of solving problems, um, that allow people to bring their thoughts and approaches to solving problems and maybe awareness that we may be culturally blind to, should, I think we need to be considering this one of your [00:45:00] great podcasts.

[00:45:00] Earlier when you were talking kind of about. Storytelling that might might have been storytelling It one of the podcasts you talked about, well, let's reach out to the Spanish speaking audience because that's a completely unre un unrepresented group. And then we had billboards in Spanish and we had brochures in Spanish.

[00:45:18] And then when people called up, we had no one that spoke Spanish. It's kinda like, oh yeah, that. You know, how is it that we can, that we are creating opportunities and awareness that there are different places and I think that a lot of different cultures, even the culture of, you know, disability or the culture of neurodiversity or the culture of returning to work, you know, or bringing our students back who have not completed their education.

[00:45:49] You know, what does that look like? How are we making space for and hearing those voices. I think that's the kind of cultural diversity we want because you can't be everything to everybody. And the [00:46:00] culture of the organization is the one that trumps, not the Carol show. That's a 

[00:46:06] Jaime: really good way to think about it and the, the culture of the organization versus like everybody's individual cul cultures being brought to the table.

[00:46:14] And when you talked about the generational differences, it made me think about a conversation that I had with somebody who's, you know, maybe 20 years younger than me, and we were talking about how when I was growing up, I'm Gen X. It was no means no. Right? That was the, the message about consent, no means no.

[00:46:32] If you said no, that meant no. And then what she had grown up with was yes means yes, which meant if you didn't say yes, it meant no. And so when you have people with those two different approaches, I think you can get into some real trouble around what is, what is actually happening. And I think about Aziz Ansari who had that sort of story where he's, he's Gen X [00:47:00] and.

[00:47:01] He was kind of doing things with this girl and she was thinking, I didn't say yes, so, so that meant no. And he's thinking, she didn't say no. So that meant yes, and it was just this huge area of conflict just based on that sort of ingrained thing that we were taught. 

[00:47:16] Carol: Yeah, that was different. It is. And whoa, we could probably spend, we could have like a round table on that.

[00:47:24] Uh, a whole different, that one topic, what I am gonna take away from it is I also talk about communication styles. And a lot of times I, I don't think it's just cultural or gen generational. I think it's also just approach. It's like, Hey, unless you give me a hard no, I'm gonna assume that I have permission.

[00:47:43] And I think that happens in the workplace a lot. And it might, and there might be people and like the power dynamics in the workplace don't say like, well, it's not my position to give you a hard no, but it could be like, well, you know, I'm not really sure that people are gonna love that idea, or maybe we should make that a [00:48:00] priority.

[00:48:00] Or have you talked to legal about that? Where it's particularly, let's recognize that the workplace inherently has power dynamics in it. There is hierarchical power, there is also influential power going through. And because of those power dynamics, it is rare that someone. Who doesn't have the same level, or they feel like you're gonna be a pain in their tookus, that they're gonna give you a direct no, it's, it's not worth it.

[00:48:26] Versus other people who, if they are like, yeah, you, I kind of did say, I kind of, you know, brought up, did you check it out? Did you really think about this? It is particularly difficult. And I remember listening, I think it was Aziz, I heard his perspective of it and I'm listening to him retell it and I'm like, oh dude.

[00:48:43] She was kind of te she was kind of telling you, you know, that, but she, but there wasn't a, there wasn't a firm, no, there wasn't a firm stop. There wasn't, I don't wanna do this. It was constantly presenting. Alternatives wouldn't be better if, you know, why don't we just. [00:49:00] Hopefully those con, those exact conversations in that context don't happen at work because you know you gotta problem.

[00:49:06] One of my rules of the nerves is, please do not sleep with the people that you work with to my friends who are married to the people they work with. You get an exception. You can't sleep with those people because you work with them, but please don't be in a reporting relationship with them. But it, it gets, and it.

[00:49:23] But I can, you can definitely see if we take that same lens at the workplace of what was someone expecting to hear and that someone was kind of communicating in their own language. And I think it goes, maybe it's a great conversation, oh, I'm gonna, Jamie, I'm gonna steal this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal.

[00:49:40] Like, how do you say no to people? Can we have that conversation of like, you know, how might you say no to someone? Maybe it's a meme. How do you say no to somebody without saying no to somebody, you know? And those different types of things that we see on social, social media. How do you have, tell me you're a Gen Xer without telling me you're Gen X, or tell me you're a [00:50:00] millennial without telling you, or me.

[00:50:01] I mean, actually I'm joking about it, but I do think it would be fascinating. Like, tell me how you say no without saying no. Tell me how you say yes without saying yes. So 

[00:50:11] Jaime: for any, how do you hear No versus how, how do you hear? No. Do you have to hear the two letter word? No. Or do you recognize those alternatives that are being presented, that hedging as a no as well?

[00:50:24] Carol: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I think we could have an, I think I'm developing an entire training, you know, workshop description over that. I'm not joking. One of my favorite ones that I did at one point in time was called, I called it the Rules of the Sandbox because I had an HR professional say, Carol, I wanna have a presentation that says, these are the rules of the sandbox.

[00:50:47] Don't throw sand at people. Don't poop in the sand. This is how you use it. And I want people to have cocktails at it and food. And I'm like, I could do that. And I ended up, and I ended up doing an entire thing about the rules [00:51:00] of the sandbox that talked about I, this kind of goes to our conversation of is it a rule that has to be followed?

[00:51:06] It is non-negotiable, or is it more of a guideline? Meaning it's negotiable. And also one of the points of that is sometimes it's a rule in one setting and sometimes it's not a rule in another setting. The example I gave, you know, in classrooms of like, we don't yell in classrooms, we use inside voices.

[00:51:22] You go out on the playground, you can yell and scream as much as you want. You can move your body as much as you want. So that rule didn't apply in that setting. And anyway, you're giving me some great ideas about the event. Like how do we say no without saying no and how do, how should I hear? No, that would be great.

[00:51:39] Well, 

[00:51:39] Jaime: I look forward to, to seeing that if when you develop it, as we're kind of looking to wrap up, what advice would you give to leaders that want to develop stronger conflict management skills? 

[00:51:51] Carol: I had a me, I do do a fair amount, a fair amount of coaching with leaders around that, but I do think I wrote down a couple of [00:52:00] things.

[00:52:00] One is, let's not make it. Like not saying we need to take like a 40 hour mediation course or things like that because, but recognize that those conflict resolution skills, they are leadership skills, they are followship skills, they are life skills. And the more you can develop those skills or even just tools to deploy it is good.

[00:52:24] And I will share an insight for you. When I was, and I still do mediate the, every time I feel like I'm confident I got this, I totally get bit in the, there is no one way to do it. And there's a. Humility. But if you have like some tools and a process that you can, that you can lean on to be able to guide people through, I think that's huge.

[00:52:43] Um, but I will say, you know, eyes up, ears up, head on a swivel, you need to be looking for conflict and levels of emotion. And people are disengaged or they're getting burnt out or they're getting angry and frustrated and there's no end in sight that they're just getting worn down by it. [00:53:00] You know? Um, think about know your team, like what should you, what clues are your, is your team giving you that things aren't right?

[00:53:08] What are you hearing or not hearing that that may indicate things aren't going right? I often say, when's the last time you heard anybody laugh? You know, when's the last, yeah. When's the last time in meetings that you felt that people were really engaged and that even the quiet and that the quiet people were engaged?

[00:53:28] Or are people creating emotional silos? You know, I'm, I'm working with a client now where they're describing feeling not safe, feeling that they're retreating emotionally, and I'm like, oh, there, there's emotional siloing going on. So what is your team telegraphing to you that there may be emotional silos going on?

[00:53:49] So I say eyes up, ears up, up head on a swivel. Do you know your team well enough to be able to first identify it? Because if you, you can't identify that stuff's going on. I don't care what skills you have, because [00:54:00] you're gonna be doing them, you know, to yourself in a mirror, in a closet, unless you can recognize an opportunity to do it.

[00:54:05] And I would say there's, you know, great resources out there. There are podcasts about conflict. There are YouTube videos out there. But maybe the first thing is start with yourself. What scares you or frustrates you the most about conflict? And because everybody is in a relationship with conflict in some way, shape, or another.

[00:54:28] So, What's your relationship with conflict? Do you kind of squash it down and get rid of it or dump it or solve the problem? Move on really fast? Are you expecting your team to do the same? You know, so how do you, how do you really feel about conflict and is up, ears up, head on a swivel? What do you know about your team and what could your team be telling you about how they're experiencing things?

[00:54:51] And please, for the love of God, do not avoid the conversations. My biggest complaint I hear from teams is [00:55:00] my leader is conflict averse. They avoid conflict. And I'm playing with this right now because I have some leaders saying, look, I'm at a director level. It's not my job to solve everybody's conflict.

[00:55:12] They need to be able to do it on their own. And I'm wondering how much of it, that's not my job. It's their job is perceived as avoiding it. And I don't have a clear answer to that, but I think it's an interesting question. So for leaders, are you perceived as avoiding conflict because you don't like it?

[00:55:30] Um, or are you expecting them to figure it out on their own? And I'm like, well, if they could figure it out on their own, don't you think they would? And are they looking, are they looking for you for some direction of what direction you want? And going back to roles, particularly on senior leadership team of if you're a leader, they're looking for you to have the ultimate decision making authority.

[00:55:49] And if they have a disagreement about even about who has decision making authority within the team, they need some guidance. From you. And so please don't avoid it. And even if you're [00:56:00] not a hundred percent comfortable with it, don't compel your other people to live in points of pain and uncertainty just because of your level of discomfort.

[00:56:08] You got the job title, it comes with the title, and you know, it comes, it's a, it's a respons responsibility. So again, listen to the emotions, listen to the facts, and if you're not an emotion person, develop, you know, a more emotional vocabulary. If you're overseeing folks who are more process oriented and data oriented, start developing a vocabulary that says, I get the process, I get the data.

[00:56:32] So that way people feel as though you're, you get them and you are speaking their language. Hmm. 

[00:56:38] Jaime: I love this conversation. I wish I could just like have you. Come in and fix all the problems in any office that I work like, it's just, it's not that I, I wouldn't describe myself as conflict avoidant, but I would say that my conflict story, when you were talking about what's your conflict story is you just get over it.

[00:56:57] That was like kind of the, if you're [00:57:00] upset with somebody at home, it's just on you to get over it. And so that, for me, I guess is probably my weakness. 'cause it's like, okay, well we've talked this soon, we've hash this out, and now it's time for you to just get over it. It's not, not everybody has the same conflict story.

[00:57:15] No emotional 

[00:57:16] Carol: hangovers allowed. Right, right. 

[00:57:19] Jaime: You're done. Right. And I have, you know, 46 years of practice just getting over conflict. But yeah, it's 

[00:57:25] Carol: like rub some dirt in it, take a lap. I don't wanna hear it. You're done. Yeah, 

[00:57:30] Jaime: yeah. But you have to, as a leader, you know, an executive leader, which I've been for eight years now, it's, you have to get past your way of looking at things, your way of looking at the world, your way of looking at conflict, your way of looking at processes is not the only way.

[00:57:45] It's not the best way necessarily. And that's something I think I've had to grow and develop over the last eight years as an executive is realizing that just because I see the world through this lens, that's not the only way the world is seen. [00:58:00] And that's something I'm actually really grateful for being an executive because I think that's a good life way of looking at things.

[00:58:06] It gives you a lot more, I think, ability to. Change your mind about things. It makes you more flexible and adaptable, but it's not always easy. There's times, especially in stress, where you fall back into who you were, how you were raised or whatever. 

[00:58:23] Carol: Yeah, exactly. And I will say that those moments that confront us as someone once rum is a growth opportunity.

[00:58:31] And I thought, and they usually come like, I don't want one of those other, I don't want another bleeping growth opportunity right now. Like seriously, I don't, no, no, let's put that back in the Amazon box and ship it back. I don't want it. So it, it, it is hard and it is difficult, but it's also, you know, hopefully you're not dealing with the same type of, you know, conflicts that you were when you were 15 or 16.

[00:58:54] As you get older it, there tends to be more at stake and they tend to be a little bit more [00:59:00] difficult. Yeah. 

[00:59:01] Jaime: Certainly not my sister standing too close to me while I'm doing dishes. That's certainly not the level touching me. Right. Not touching me. Right. Oh, well this has been such a fantastic conversation.

[00:59:12] If people wanna get in touch with you, where can they find 

[00:59:14] Carol: you? They can find me on most social media. You just type in Carol Bowser and I should be there, including YouTube, where I'm starting to put out little snippets, little, little, little things to help increase people's conflict resolution muscles.

[00:59:27] You can also follow me on LinkedIn where someone a little while ago said I was one of the top 30 people to follow on LinkedIn for conflict resolution. And there's also, thank you. You can, the website conflict.com, where there's a little bit more about me and there's an access there to be able to, you know, email me directly.

[00:59:45] And again, there's also videos and blogs out there, and I hope that they're accessible enough that people wanna share. Someone to change their conflict behaviors. Don't hand them a blog or one of my things and say, Hey, I think you should read [01:00:00] this. Or if you download it and highlight stuff that doesn't work, they'll read it and go, they're a mess.

[01:00:06] Look at all this stuff they highlighted. 

[01:00:08] Jaime: That's definitely not a good tactic. Here's where you have problems. Here's where you have problems. Awesome. Well thank you and listeners, as always, you can find me on, I guess we're calling it X now, but Twitter at Jaime Hunt, I M C J A I M E H U N T I M C. You can find me on LinkedIn.

[01:00:28] Please feel free to reach out. I'm always happy to chat. And if you listen to this episode, you wanna engage in conversation, please use the hashtag higher ed cmo. And um, until then, let's go bust some emotional silos this time. Have a great day. 

[01:00:47] Carol: Hey y'all. Zach here from Enrollify. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Confessions of a Higher Ed CMO with Jaime Hunt.

[01:00:52] If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to [01:01:00] spare, we would greatly appreciate you leading a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts. Our podcast network is growing by the month, and we've got a plethora of marketing admissions and higher ed technology shows that are jam packed with stories, ideas, and frameworks that are all designed to empower you to become a better higher ed professional.

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