A Seat at the Table: The Evolution of the CMO in Higher Ed

Full Transcript

Enrollify - Confessions of a CMO - Ep 1 Terry Flannery V2

[00:00:00] Terry Flannery: I believe that CMOs would make great institutional presidents. And when I look at the prospectus for many positions and you look at what the president needs to do and have experienced. They are many of the things that we are already known how to do.[00:00:15] [00:00:30] 

[00:00:34] Jaime Hunt: Welcome to confessions of a higher ed CMO, the podcast designed for higher education marketers. I'm your host, Jaime Hunt. And I am so excited to have this opportunity to share [00:00:45] insights and inspiration with confessions of a higher as CMO I'm defining a different kinds of podcasts needs. With each episode, I'll be bringing in a guest for a deep dive, into the challenges and joys we all face in higher education marketing. [00:01:00] After each episode, you can join the conversation on Twitter or using the hashtag higher ed CMO. I would love to see this become like a book club, but for a podcast. And be sure to follow me on Twitter at Jaime hunt IMC. [00:01:15] That's J A I M E H U N T I M C for more opportunities to connect.

[00:01:28] Jaime Hunt: I'm a higher ed CMO and I have [00:01:30] a confession to make, even after 18 years in higher education, I still don't know everything. I am so excited that there are still things to learn and grow from. And I really hope you enjoy this week's episode with our guests, Terry [00:01:45] Flannery. Terry is a higher education leader with 35 years of experience working at large, medium and small institutions, both public and private.

[00:01:54] Jaime Hunt: One of the leading university marketing and communications professionals in the world. Terry has led some of the most [00:02:00] successful marketing campaigns in all of higher education. She's also a consultant, speaker and author of how to market a university building value in a competitive environment. Welcome to the show, Terry, thank you, 

[00:02:12] Terry Flannery: Jaime.

[00:02:12] Terry Flannery: I'm so pleased to be here with you for your first podcast. [00:02:15] 

[00:02:15] Jaime Hunt: I'm so excited to have you, and so thrilled that you're my first guest. So Terry, I'm going to just jump right in. Can you tell me a little bit about your higher education marketing journey? 

[00:02:27] Terry Flannery: Yes, it goes way, way back.  I've [00:02:30] worked in higher education, my entire career, Jamie.

[00:02:32] Terry Flannery: So I started. Really, even as a student as far I discovered I, I love higher education and could have a career in it. I was an orientation advisor. And that's the place that I learned the beginnings of student development [00:02:45] theory and kind of the professional practice. So I started out in student affairs or in my master's degree, did my time in resident life.

[00:02:53] Terry Flannery: And then. Was enticed to move to admissions where my professional mentor or who had been the [00:03:00] orientation director moved to admissions. And she said, why don't you just come try it, see if you like it. I think you might. But if you don't have to, you can always go back to student affairs and sure enough, I loved it.

[00:03:09] Terry Flannery: It gave me a foot in academic affairs and student affairs. And [00:03:15] there, I realized pretty quickly that there was this growing area of opportunity. In marketing, where people who were taking marketing approaches, we're bringing them into admissions work, which is the only place that I'm aware of. Maybe continuing education a little bit [00:03:30] too, that marketing was being adopted in terms of practice.

[00:03:33] Terry Flannery: And so, I spent my 11 years in admissions and then was offered. The first marketing director position at my Alma mater university of Maryland, the same institution. [00:03:45] And so I moved over to that role and started establishing the structure and the practice there and have been in marketing ever since.

[00:03:51] Terry Flannery: And I've been a CMO at three institutions at university of Maryland at American university. And most recently for [00:04:00] year as interim at Stony Brook university in. 

[00:04:03] Jaime Hunt: So, what did you like about marketing when you made the switch from admission into marketing? What drove that desire for you to actually stick then with marketing?

[00:04:13] Jaime Hunt: Yeah, 

[00:04:13] Terry Flannery: I'm not sure. I [00:04:15] had the foresight to see all that I see now, but I knew a couple of things, one that it provided great growth opportunities to have influence at a wider institutional level. And two, it combined three things that. And it combined [00:04:30] strategy, creativity and analytics, and those three things don't often go together in a professional opportunity, but all three to get me really jazzed and to have something that combined those for us.

[00:04:43] Jaime Hunt: I always say that [00:04:45] marketing is a blend of art and science and it sort of feeds both sides of the brain. And I find that, like what you're saying, I think really connects with that, that you're able to still be very research and data-driven while also getting to be creative [00:05:00] and have a lot of fun with the work that you do.

[00:05:02] Jaime Hunt: I agree. So you quite literally wrote the book on higher education marketing. What made you decide to tackle that? 

[00:05:11] Terry Flannery: Frankly, someone asked. So I got I've [00:05:15] called from the editor of the Johns Hopkins university press, the editorial director, Greg Britton. And he said that he had this series, which I knew about for higher education leaders, small practical books, and he saw a real need for there [00:05:30] to be a book about higher education marketing.

[00:05:32] Terry Flannery: He said that higher education leaders were hungry to know. More about how to organize resource and measure the work. And he said, he asked 10 people who should write the book and they all gave him my name. [00:05:45] That's a 

[00:05:46] Jaime Hunt: vote of confidence. 

[00:05:47] Terry Flannery: Well, I think he was trying to flatter me, but it worked, it was it made a big impression.

[00:05:52] Terry Flannery: And then I realized when I had the opportunity to do it, then it was really carrying responsibility for a whole profession [00:06:00] and, you know, tremendous. Who I think the world I've been so and wanted to do it justice. 

[00:06:08] Jaime Hunt: So your book dive does a deep dive into a lot of things that we face as higher at CMOs.

[00:06:14] Jaime Hunt: Everything [00:06:15] from dealing with boards, getting buy-in measurement data analytics. Were there any parts of the book that were particularly challenging to try to dive into, or was it all just a passion project for you? 

[00:06:27] Terry Flannery: I think it's fair to say it was a passion project. [00:06:30] There were a couple that were hard.

[00:06:32] Terry Flannery: The chapter that's on grand and branding is a beast it's just big. And trying to articulate that process was in a way that presidents and provosts and board [00:06:45] members would understand was a big challenge for me. And then the chapter on digital marketing, I struggled because it's In order for leaders to be successful CMOs and their leaders, they have to understand the language and the practice and the terms.

[00:06:59] Terry Flannery: [00:07:00] And even just how to read a report. There's lots of mystery there, I think for many. And so I wanted to be able to provide like a consumer's level of knowledge about its understanding so that people could [00:07:15] leaders could hold their CMOs accountable. Had the language they need to learn and understand in better practice if they weren't a facile in that area.

[00:07:23] Terry Flannery: So getting that balance right. You know, I tried to keep it up at a fairly high strategic level for leaders to hold [00:07:30] their attention and interest, but go into enough detail that they had the language that they needed to be adept at knowing what to ask for how to set expectations, how to gauge measurements, things.

[00:07:43] Terry Flannery: And then I guess just the other [00:07:45] thing that happened kind of on the backend is that when the book was being reviewed, I got some feedback, blind reviews, including from a CMO who later confessed, who he was don't know at the time. But I was very grateful for his feedback [00:08:00] because he said this really needs to be for CMOs, but you're talking to this other group of leaders.

[00:08:05] Terry Flannery: And how can you create. A way for the book to be accessed by book. And he actually made the suggestion to create some kind of conversation between [00:08:15] CMOs and their leaders. So that's why the end of every chapter has a set of discussion questions. And actually it's been really rewarding and fun to see and hear of leadership teams.

[00:08:26] Terry Flannery: The president, the chief advancement officer, the chief marketing [00:08:30] officer, sometimes the enrollment VP are reading it together and using the discussion questions to kind of talk. Where they are and what they might need to do next, which is awesome. 

[00:08:39] Jaime Hunt: I love that. So when you were tackling this book, you intended for it to be read by the different [00:08:45] audiences, not just CMOs 

[00:08:47] Terry Flannery: that's right.

[00:08:47] Terry Flannery: It really was intended at first for presidents, provost, and board members, because they really want to know how this stuff works and they have a hunger and in some cases, anxiety [00:09:00] about even how to set it up. What kind of resources, it will take how to reasonably measure and hold accountable. The people who are leading it, how to get the help they need.

[00:09:11] Terry Flannery: So it was equipping them first. That was the first [00:09:15] task. And then, you know, I realized through feedback that it was a tool for my immediate colleagues as well, and that I could create this company. 

[00:09:24] Jaime Hunt: I found well, beating it. I kept highlighting and underlining things almost on every page because the book is [00:09:30] all marked up.

[00:09:31] Jaime Hunt: And it's like, there's things that you know, that you've never articulated that are in the book. There's things that you've articulated that you kind of want to put a giant post-it note there's things you want to print out and blow up and hang up on your wall. What [00:09:45] do you hope is the thing that people most take away from it?

[00:09:48] Terry Flannery: I hope that it is very empowering for our colleagues who are CMOs and inspiring. And I think that's some of what you're echoing that you see reinforcements there, of things you knew [00:10:00] and needed to shout from the mountaintops or take tier leaders and say, read this. So that empowerment is one really important piece.

[00:10:09] Terry Flannery: I think I want leaders and colleagues in our committee. To understand [00:10:15] fundamentally that marketing strategy is institutional strategy. They're one and the same. They need to be very closely aligned your marketing plans with your institution, strategic goals, and that in fact, using this framework can [00:10:30] help you to build revenue and reputation, which are at the root of many of the institutional goals and most of our strategic plans.

[00:10:36] Terry Flannery: So having that be a takeaway. A misunderstanding of marketing that it's tactical, that it's mainly about promotion. You know, I try [00:10:45] to blow that out of the water and get people to really see what the whole practices and then the power that's in it. If people do it well, 

[00:10:53] Jaime Hunt: have you seen thoughts evolve around that in the time that you've been working as a CMO?

[00:10:59] Terry Flannery: Yes, [00:11:00] absolutely. So, I think in the book I mentioned several presidents who've developed. Market research at the same time that they're developing their strategic plan with the intent that it will inform both strategic [00:11:15] plan and marketing plan. That's a level of sophistication and respect for the practice that didn't exist when I first started out.

[00:11:24] Terry Flannery: In fact if you suggested that you would do market research, To [00:11:30] inform strategic plan. Many leaders would have told you, you know, back in the early days that's absurd, that's inappropriate that we shouldn't be listening to our customers and their needs as a means to drive what the institution should do.

[00:11:43] Terry Flannery: And that would kind of get looped in with [00:11:45] academic freedom. And this notion that what is to be taught, what is offered is a role of the faculty and not to be. Tainted for lack of a better word by market research and that's completely changed. So that's the biggest [00:12:00] shift I think, and then I'm coming along, but I'm still a lot of work to do.

[00:12:05] Terry Flannery: Leaders are starting to realize that this is more than just promotion. That really, this is a means to develop institutional [00:12:15] strategy so that your stakeholders experience with the institution, their brand experience is Wrapped up in everything, every interaction and every sense they have of your institution.

[00:12:27] Terry Flannery: So, getting leaders to recognize [00:12:30] the holistic practice of marketing is another piece that's coming along. Still has a ways to go. Yeah 

[00:12:36] Jaime Hunt: I'm surprised in my 17 years in higher education, I've seen an evolution and I've seen faculty be more. Move [00:12:45] away from thinking of us as sort of the mustache twirling enemy.

[00:12:48] Jaime Hunt: That's trying to like horn in on their area to strategic partners that can help them grow their programs, help them attract [00:13:00] students into their individual classes. So I, I just have definitely seen that shift in 17 years. And I'm sure you've seen that in your 35 years grow. Even beyond that, I think Well, what do you, why do you think that CMOs should have a seat at [00:13:15] the leadership table and should be in these types of higher level discussion?

[00:13:19] Jaime Hunt: Well, 

[00:13:19] Terry Flannery: so it goes back to this notion of marketing strategy being institutional strategy. If you are at the leadership table, then you are in conversations about important [00:13:30] institutional initiatives that are being considered that are part of the marketing mix. Really. Yeah, what's the product or service being offered.

[00:13:40] Terry Flannery: What is the price at which it's offered? What is the means by [00:13:45] which it's there? The programs and services are accessed are distributed. And then, you know, what messages can effectively convey that mix to target audiences? So anything that you're considering around the leadership table around round.[00:14:00] 

[00:14:00] Terry Flannery: Can benefit from the marketing expert at the table. And when leaders recognize that it's not just about asking us to take a decision that's been made and now figure out how to communicate it. But instead to think about the needs of our key [00:14:15] audiences or stakeholders, to think about them as targets and to design the decision in a way that's going to effectively create what Cutler calls an exchange of value, that's his definition of marketing or part of that.

[00:14:27] Terry Flannery: That you want to create a [00:14:30] voluntary and satisfying exchange of value with your stakeholder audiences. And if they enter that exchange voluntarily and they give something of value and they receive something of value and it's satisfying, that will be repeated over time [00:14:45] in a way that you develop a relationship over time.

[00:14:48] Terry Flannery: That's exactly what we want to do in higher education. It's a definition that's really concerned. With our values and higher ed. And so when you think about it, that way, it makes perfect sense that you would bring the [00:15:00] expert with the knowledge of this practice and the data about your stakeholders.

[00:15:03] Terry Flannery: Because we have one of the most enterprise wide views of our audiences into those conversations about strategy and more leaders. A lot of them are recognizing, I think the latest CMOs [00:15:15] study showed that something like 70% now report to the president or channel. And 60% have a seat at the table very often through a, you know, the title role CMO or vice president.

[00:15:28] Terry Flannery: So that is clearly [00:15:30] being recognized. 

[00:15:32] Jaime Hunt: Do you think that there's things that CMOs and leaders in higher education should be looking to core the corporate world for adopting and adapting? How we market our institutes? [00:15:45] 

[00:15:46] Terry Flannery: Yeah, it's a hard leap. I mean, we don't often first look to the corporate sector for adoption of practice boards do, but presidents and provosts often don't and faculty think that's blasphemy still.

[00:15:59] Terry Flannery: [00:16:00] So, you know, you have to do that carefully, but I do think there should take away. So one of the things is how little we invest relative to the corporate sector in marketing technology. It's a really tiny piece of our overall operating budget. [00:16:15] And it's hamstringing our ability to do the things we need to do well, particularly bring that data to the table.

[00:16:22] Terry Flannery: You know, if you think about the, really the ideal state, you would want to have technology stacks that allow you to [00:16:30] track someone from the point of first contact with the institution all the way through their lifelong relationship with the institution. So for example, as a prospective student, all the way through.

[00:16:40] Terry Flannery: Role as engaged and supportive alum. And so we don't [00:16:45] have enterprise wide technology at our institution in any of the stacks and the stacks aren't integrated in a way that allows us to have a CMS, a CA CRM, marketing, automation, software, all of those pieces that you would want to go together.

[00:16:59] Terry Flannery: [00:17:00] And they are expensive. I understand that they are an investment, but I think the parallel. Where institutions are now investing in ERP systems and they understand how important that is for being able to manage their human and financial resources and their student [00:17:15] information system that the smart tech investment is I think, going to be the priority right behind this in order to do what we need to do to keep that lifeline, particularly for enrollment, but also for advancement behaviors to be able to do [00:17:30] that well.

[00:17:30] Terry Flannery: So I think that's a big. Adaptation from the corporate sector that we need to model that's going to be pretty important. There are some others, that's a big one. I think 

[00:17:40] Jaime Hunt: that jumped out at me in the CMOs study and it made me pause for a [00:17:45] second and say, am I advocating enough for MarTech? Am I.

[00:17:50] Jaime Hunt: Standing up and stomping my feet enough that's something that we need to be making an investment in. And I think it could be really transformative. For institutions that adopted, [00:18:00] 

[00:18:00] Terry Flannery: I have had a chance to work with Salesforce in developing conversations in a round table. They have round table of CMOs and another round table of CEOs.

[00:18:10] Terry Flannery: And I've been working with them to bring them together for a couple of conversations and really trying [00:18:15] to recognize the power of that partnership. Going to come from, you know, an initiative that gets elevated to the top of the tech priority list is going to come from the endorsement of the CIO and CMO together.

[00:18:27] Terry Flannery: I think along with some deans [00:18:30] who care about their grad school enrollments or the undergraduate admissions, you know, the VP for enrollment that cares about that piece are going to figure out that this supports those outcomes. 

[00:18:42] Jaime Hunt: I think higher ed is so siloed and that's part of the [00:18:45] challenge is.

[00:18:47] Jaime Hunt: Everybody has their own instance of whatever CRM that they're using and things aren't connected to each other. And this is my territory and that's your territory. And I always talk about how we have to start breaking down these silos and [00:19:00] building relationships across the institution. And if you're not connected with your CIO how are you going to further that conversation around MarTech?

[00:19:08] Terry Flannery: I do think that people who leaders who have distributed resources. Whether they're technology or human resources that [00:19:15] relate to the marketing enterprise, they have to see what's in it for them to collaborate and work together because they're going to feel like they're giving some things up, right.

[00:19:25] Terry Flannery: That's always been the case with distributed and decentralized resources. And if [00:19:30] they can see one, the savings of doing something in a collective. And the redundancy and one of the things that's really hard about CRMs is keeping trained people to operate the systems. So at a former institution, we had [00:19:45] three different kinds of CRMs and the people who were operating them each were kind of their own experts.

[00:19:51] Terry Flannery: And when someone would leave or be on vacation, there was no redundancy that. When we built a more integrated system university-wide we could [00:20:00] create a staff of CRM experts who were power users in each of the units, but also had some floaters so that if you had openings where people would get stolen, because they're so valued right now, as employees you'd have the ability to kind of cover those [00:20:15] responsibilities right away.

[00:20:16] Terry Flannery: So seeing what's in it to collaborate and be part of a greater. It's a big part of the case for getting people to do more enterprise wide tech. 

[00:20:26] Jaime Hunt: I'm going to confess to being a poacher and stealing [00:20:30] somebody else's CRM expert. I mean, I, for me, it was recognizing that if we wanted to get that kind of talent on our campus, we needed to have the ability to offer it fully remote and be able to poach anybody from anywhere in the country.

[00:20:44] Jaime Hunt: [00:20:45] And I'll tell the listeners right now, although maybe I shouldn't, because it's going to spoil my advantage, but we had a lot of qualified app. And I think that being able to attract somebody to rural Southwest [00:21:00] Ohio we probably would not have had as many qualified applicants applying for that than if we offered it remote.

[00:21:06] Jaime Hunt: We have to really be thinking outside the box. Yeah. 

[00:21:09] Terry Flannery: I'm with you philosophically. Totally. I think there are some structural and cultural obstacles to that [00:21:15] institutions are struggling with and the structure will have to do with being able to. Arranged payroll and workers' comp and all that kind of HR business in other states, how many other states or other countries, [00:21:30] and having a resource to cover that in many institutions, particularly the publics are not equipped to move in that direction.

[00:21:37] Terry Flannery: And they're figuring that out right now. And then the cultural piece is just, you know, if you're a campus that's providing a premium in-person [00:21:45] experience for you. Who are more hungry than ever to be back and in person for many of the things they're looking for in a college experience, then how do you deliver that when your team are remote?

[00:21:55] Terry Flannery: And obviously some of what we do, I would argue the technology and [00:22:00] marketing can be done very easily remotely, but there are some things that our teams need to do that are more in-person to deliver that experience. And I think we've got to figure. 

[00:22:11] Jaime Hunt: A hundred percent. We have chosen to have our positions that are [00:22:15] technology adjacent, be the ones that we're offering fully remote.

[00:22:18] Jaime Hunt: And it took a lot of effort with HR to identify states that we could venture into. And there's some states that we just, we're not going to be able to recruit people from those states. But I think the big challenge that I have [00:22:30] as a leader is how do we get. Our remote hires, engaged and feeling part of the culture of our office.

[00:22:37] Jaime Hunt: As much as they would love to be virtual, fully virtual. That's a line that I'm holding steady to at the moment that they need to [00:22:45] be in the office at least some of the time. And that there needs to be days where everybody's in the office. Yeah. So shifting topics just a little bit. But I want to circle back to your book, so I know you're working on a masterclass around your book.

[00:22:59] Jaime Hunt: Can [00:23:00] you tell me a little bit more about that? Yes, this is 

[00:23:03] Terry Flannery: very exciting. So, I have partnered with enroller fi, which is a company that is very focused on the professional development of our enrollment mark. And through them, we have [00:23:15] together approached five other higher education marketing agencies who have sponsored, jointly sponsored this course.

[00:23:24] Terry Flannery: So it's designed to be an asynchronous experience that you can subscribe to. It's got [00:23:30] 10 sessions or modules that are each based on chapters of the book. And what it's designed to do is go more deeply into the substance of the book with some real application resources. There are exercises in there in the materials for the course to [00:23:45] help you take, you know, what we talk about in terms of development of a value proposition or a sense of the maturity of your marketing team and its role at the institution and applying that at your own institution in some more [00:24:00] deep, thoughtful, applied ways, and then tries to kind of queue up.

[00:24:05] Terry Flannery: And so what are you going to do about that? So I think it will make the substance of the book, which is already pretty practical, even more applied for practitioners. And I expect the [00:24:15] key audience will be people who are marketing professionals in higher education. What's I think fun about, you know, it's designed to be a master course, so I'm the expert leading the delivery of the substance and the engagement.

[00:24:28] Terry Flannery: But I've invited a bunch of my friends. [00:24:30] So colleagues in my network, some of my book whispers who helped me be, you know, think about the substance of the book and they are the guest experts in the course. And we also invited some of the founding fathers and they are fathers of higher education [00:24:45] marketing, and also kind of give a sense.

[00:24:46] Terry Flannery: And so it really gives us an opportunity to hear from a wide range of folks so that you're not just hearing from me. Between the offerings that I provide and the guest experts, I think you're going to [00:25:00] get this really rich applied experience. I can tell you that we've designed it so that you can access it as an individual, so you can scribe to subscribe to it for $59.

[00:25:08] Terry Flannery: Or you can subscribe as a team. So you can subscribe for around [00:25:15] $600. To for your institution to have access. And then everybody gets a code to access the work. There's a version of the subscription that you can get the book and the course together, if you don't have the book. And I'm glad to say that for your listeners, Jamie we've [00:25:30] arranged a discount code so that if you want to register on the site, which maybe we can include that in the show notes as well.

[00:25:36] Terry Flannery: You go to enroll a fi.org forward slash masters. To register and you can enter the code CMO pod and [00:25:45] that will allow you to get a 10% discount on the registration for the course. So it we announced by the time your podcast drops and the course will launch with the first sessions going live at the end of.

[00:25:59] Jaime Hunt: Had is [00:26:00] so exciting. I am so thrilled. The price point is exceptional. I think that leaves this an opportunity for the smaller schools that don't have a ton of resources, which is exciting. I'm going to be signing up 60 people. So that'll, I know [00:26:15] I have a big team but. Really excited. I kind of shared them with them, a teaser about this, and everybody's really excited.

[00:26:22] Jaime Hunt: I think it's going to be a good culture builder too, cause we'll be able to have some discussions and I'm really excited about [00:26:30] this and think this is fantastic and it gives people a different way to enter in with the content and like not everybody can absorb content reading it. So there's another opportunity to engage.

[00:26:41] Jaime Hunt: So I love this and thank you for the discount from my list. [00:26:45] You're welcome. I'm sure. They'll appreciate that. So, so jumping to a different topic what do you think I would love to get your thoughts on centralized versus decentralized models in higher ed, 

[00:26:59] Terry Flannery: where to 

[00:26:59] Jaime Hunt: [00:27:00] start? I mean, we've 

[00:27:02] Terry Flannery: been decentralized as long as we've been hired, right?

[00:27:05] Terry Flannery: This is how our Institute. We were founded and grew through the disciplines and academic departments. And I don't think that is going to change anytime soon, [00:27:15] but it's a big, but there are places where more coordination collaboration leading to centralization has happened and makes sense. And I think this is one of those places.

[00:27:28] Terry Flannery: So I'm aware of institutions that have [00:27:30] kind of pulled the whole ball of wax together. And I think it requires increasing. Leadership and incredible political capital on the part of the president in order to do it. And that may not be realistic. So I wouldn't say that's the end goal to aim [00:27:45] for certainly not right away, but you can start to think about structures and tools to be working in a more coordinating fashion.

[00:27:54] Terry Flannery: Eventually more collaborative, not just coordinating and then conceivably could begin to make the [00:28:00] case that it makes sense to them. You know, more integrated structure. And there are lots of kind of steps along the way in that process. And in the book we talk about, you know, things that are coordinating things that are more collaborative and then structures that start to integrate.

[00:28:14] Terry Flannery: Like you could [00:28:15] have a team like yours that maybe follows a bit of an agency model, where you have people who are marketing strategists, who are specialists. Dedicated to a part of the institution as their portfolio. And we use [00:28:30] that model at American university where I was vice president. You know, so you have people who deeply understand the goals and the priorities in the areas that marketing tools should be applied and you [00:28:45] embed them in those places.

[00:28:46] Terry Flannery: So that's not exactly a centralized structure, but it's starting to follow a model that maybe it's more. But you would see in fundraising where you have someone who moves between the two areas, the distributed in the central unit, [00:29:00] and starts to bring things together. And I think eventually it's possible, particularly the, with the marketing technology, facilitating that to become much more centralized.

[00:29:10] Terry Flannery: But I think we're in early days on that. 

[00:29:13] Jaime Hunt: Yeah. When I was [00:29:15] looking into that, because we're moving towards a centralized model here at Miami. And when I was looking into that, there were few colleagues to talk to. Who'd actually gone through that whole process. And there is sort of that centralized versus center led approach [00:29:30] to it too.

[00:29:30] Jaime Hunt: So even within campuses that I think can, would consider themselves to be more centralized, some of them. Probably more better described as being centered led where there is a lot of leadership and input and effort on alignment, but there's not [00:29:45] necessarily the reporting structure there. And I think that can still be very effective.

[00:29:49] Terry Flannery: Yeah. It's certainly a place to take a step in the direction of the outcomes you're looking for, that a central organization would give you. 

[00:29:58] Jaime Hunt: So, what are your thoughts [00:30:00] on the trends that are ahead for higher education? What should we have on our radar? What should we be thinking about? 

[00:30:06] Terry Flannery: Well, we've mentioned one already, which is the marketing technology piece.

[00:30:11] Terry Flannery: We spend far more on labor in our marketing [00:30:15] organizations in higher ed and very little in marketing technology. And those two things are related. And there are some things that we could do with technology that would not require as many staff or staff that could be allocated to other things. So I think that's something that has, is [00:30:30] bound to become more invested in and with greater integration, I just think it has to happen.

[00:30:35] Terry Flannery: And the, you know, the forces of change that are requiring something to be done. They're all in, in line with the enrollment challenges that we're facing, [00:30:45] the demographic cliff and the competition that's going to come with that being big ones. So I think that's one another is that I think we will start to see more mature measures of.

[00:30:57] Terry Flannery: And even a measure of brand equity in our higher [00:31:00] education practice. And that's not a huge leap. There are some institutions and some agencies that are starting to really embed measures of brand health in their brand work, which is terrific. So that you're taking that pulse more regularly and can track it [00:31:15] and identify progress in areas with certain audiences maybe to put more investment or to focus here.

[00:31:21] Terry Flannery: The brand equity piece would be really great to get to, because if we could create an estimate of the value of the institution's brand, [00:31:30] in a way that's respected, as there are other forms of equity on our balance sheet, that would convey a huge message about the importance of our work. So I think that's probably coming.

[00:31:40] Terry Flannery: But I think along with that, there'll be greater accountability. So, the more institutions [00:31:45] invest, the more leaders are going to expect us. Rigorously measure and report on our progress and the outcomes and to recommend refinements where things aren't working. So I think we need to be prepared for that.

[00:31:56] Terry Flannery: So there's three trunks. 

[00:31:58] Jaime Hunt: Do you think we'll move toward more [00:32:00] outsourcing of these sorts of things? Or do you think that we're going to be needing to focus on hiring the right people who have these skill sets? Yeah, I think you, 

[00:32:08] Terry Flannery: one of the things we're going to cover in the course is how to decide what to build capacity internally.[00:32:15] 

[00:32:15] Terry Flannery: I just dangled my proper preposition denied for what we should build internal capacity. And what should we outsource? And I think in making that decision, it would make sense to think about what are things that are aligned with the [00:32:30] institution's core capabilities and capacities. An example, if you need some kind of Salesforce or team working with the CRM to really maximize.

[00:32:40] Terry Flannery: The development of a relationship with prospects or donors or whatever. One of the [00:32:45] things you need is like a call center and the staff to follow up on leads and convert them all the way along the way. We already do that in advancement with annual fund quite effectively. And in some admissions offices, we do that related to [00:33:00] prospect development.

[00:33:00] Terry Flannery: So that might be something that's aligned with something we already know how to do in sustain. And if you've got that on your campus, maybe it makes sense. Build that capacity for a digital marketing program in house. On the other hand, there are things that aren't part of our [00:33:15] what we're comfortable doing in higher ed or what we're good at.

[00:33:18] Terry Flannery: And there are things that present such challenges for talent management, for retention of talent. That maybe for keeping up with certification or skills in the areas that maybe just [00:33:30] make sense for that headache to be measured by our agency friends, because they can, you know, and they have the capacity to do so.

[00:33:36] Terry Flannery: So things I think about things like SEO, SEM some aspects of digital marketing that it makes sense for [00:33:45] agencies to supply us with that resource. You could also make the argument for programs that have the capacity. Scale that it makes sense. You could outsource the whole kind of recruitment lead from lead gen all the way through that piece of the [00:34:00] Salesforce to an outside firm, but only if the program has the scale to pay for it because it's expensive and it doesn't make sense to do that for small programs.

[00:34:08] Terry Flannery: So that's kind of how I make judgments about what should we build. In-house even if it's a new, relatively evolving [00:34:15] piece and what outdoors, one thing I think we really. Built internally that we haven't had is business intelligence, having a data analyst at the disposal of the CMO to help with all of our questions in that regard.

[00:34:27] Terry Flannery: I think that would be huge. 

[00:34:29] Jaime Hunt: I [00:34:30] feel so lucky to have one on my team. He his office used to be right outside of my office, but now we've let him go fully remote, but it is a huge. Advantage to have that. I think that the trick is getting the team to think about [00:34:45] involving him from the very beginning on projects that we're determining how and what we're going to measure and not having that be sort of slapped on at the end.

[00:34:54] Jaime Hunt: Oh Todd, can you tell us, how did this do? Like, no, we need to know upfront what we're going to be wanting [00:35:00] to measure that investment in data and to create that position for him. And move that. So, what do you think that we should be thinking about and excited about and what do you think we need to be right about ahead?

[00:35:13] Jaime Hunt: I know the demographic [00:35:15] cliff is probably one thing, but what are some marketing specific things that we need to have in mind? 

[00:35:20] Terry Flannery: Yeah. You know, I know demographic cliff is scary and it's scarier in some parts of the country than others, and we'll see how it manifests, but I'm really excited about it [00:35:30] because that the thing that is the thing that's giving us this incredible opportunity to step into.

[00:35:34] Terry Flannery: Marketing as a strategic function that requires a level of investment and respect that we've never had before. So I don't think there's a better time to be a marketing professional in higher ed. There's [00:35:45] never been a better time. So I'm really excited about that. I do think I've seen in, again, the CMO study that you talked about, that SimpsonScarborough just did, and this is their fourth iteration of that survey they're seeing institutions start to cut their marketing.[00:36:00] 

[00:36:00] Terry Flannery: And lots of places as their enrollment has crunched. And they feel strongly in many cases that if other areas are being cut, they can't help, but cut in this area too. It would be unfair. The optics would be great. I think we have to really guard against this. This [00:36:15] goes back to framing investments in marketing as investments that will build value, both revenue and reputation that have measurable effects on your institution.

[00:36:26] Terry Flannery: And that are going to provide returns that you need [00:36:30] as an institution more than ever. So I think we need to guard against that instinct to cut and be prepared to make an argument. And I've seen several CMOs go into the arena to the chief of staff and to the provost. If they're responsible for the budget and say, let's look [00:36:45] at this way, this is the investment upfront.

[00:36:48] Terry Flannery: This is what it should return. Here's how we'll measure. And. Investments have been maintained in some cases increased. So I think that's something to be watching out for. And then I think the last piece is just the threats to our teams. [00:37:00] We've talked a little bit about remote work and the great resignation.

[00:37:03] Terry Flannery: This is not just limited to marketing. All of higher education is facing this huge shift where more than half of our employees are saying they might leave the sector entirely. And. [00:37:15] I think that is a combination of a couple of things. One we've always said, you know, come work in higher education.

[00:37:22] Terry Flannery: The pay is not great, but it's the work that matters. It's the mission that matters. You're transforming lives. You're advancing society. Those are all important things. [00:37:30] And that has worked for a long time, but no more. And people think their jobs are out of whack. They don't have enough work-life balance.

[00:37:36] Terry Flannery: They're not getting paid enough. They're not appreciated enough. They're not respected enough. And they don't have to come in. In-person [00:37:45] work every day in lots of other places with options now. So that is potentially a real crisis. And if we want to advance at this time, that's such an opportune time to demonstrate what we do.

[00:37:57] Terry Flannery: We're going to have to figure out how to build our teams in this time of [00:38:00] transition. 

[00:38:01] Jaime Hunt: Do you think that salaries have perhaps not kept pace? How positions have evolved. And I think about the old publications offices, where maybe you had somebody who just [00:38:15] wrote a couple of press releases a week and, you know, hung out at the water cooler with the faculty for a big chunk of the day, and maybe faxed a press release over to somebody.

[00:38:25] Jaime Hunt: Once a week or something to now having to have this great deal [00:38:30] of savvy and understanding of data and how to analyze results and all of that. Do you think that's part of the issue that we have with losing really talented people? Maybe? 

[00:38:40] Terry Flannery: I mean, For a long time. I believe that you don't come to higher education to [00:38:45] put your feet up and eat bond bonds.

[00:38:46] Terry Flannery: It's not an easy job. People who came from other sectors might think, oh, we only worked nine months of the year. Cause you know, we're off for the summer now. That's not true. We work our butts off. Right. And we have for a long time, including in areas like strategic [00:39:00] communications where it's just been one issue or crisis to manage after another, those are hard.

[00:39:07] Terry Flannery: I'm not sure. I mean, it's, I'm sure we could make the argument that the jobs have not have evolved in ways that the [00:39:15] compensation is not kept up and that there are both tools and savvy that are required to do the jobs more professionally than maybe they had been done decades ago. But I don't think higher ed has kept up by and large, much [00:39:30] of our labor force has been compensated at a level that is.

[00:39:34] Terry Flannery: Equivalent in other areas, except at the top level roles. If you get to a leadership position, they're really great jobs with great compensation, still work really hard, but those entry level and mid-level [00:39:45] roles are not keeping up. And we're going to have to figure that out. 

[00:39:50] Jaime Hunt: And I wonder if that's where the MarTech comes in, if that's where instead of hiring more people.

[00:39:55] Jaime Hunt: Who make less, we hire people who can really [00:40:00] maximize the MarTech and pay them a little bit more and have fewer people resources invested. Yep. 

[00:40:07] Terry Flannery: Well, you know, there's the applications for AI and marketing automation software are going to make some of what's done by people now [00:40:15] more effectively done with those tools.

[00:40:17] Terry Flannery: And so having experts who know how to manage those. Who get paid at a certain level probably will shift the resources in that direction. 

[00:40:27] Jaime Hunt: So when you think about being a [00:40:30] CMO and where you're going and career paths, and what can you do after you become a CMO, what do you think are the potential career paths for CMOs and is CMO the top rung or are there other opportunities within an [00:40:45] institution of higher education that a CMO can inspire?

[00:40:48] Terry Flannery: Yeah, well, I'm an optimist if you haven't figured that out already. So I think that even if your title CMO stays the same and you are effective, you ended up getting handed [00:41:00] other roles and responsibilities that give you a wide influence at the institution. And so I think about someone like Angela Pollock, who was the research assistant for my book, who's the vice president of the south.

[00:41:11] Terry Flannery: And her president and provost asked her to. [00:41:15] The co-chair of their pandemic planning and response team. And one of the reasons that they articulated was that they couldn't think of anybody who could deal with the level of complexity and had the kind of relationships across the campus that she had.

[00:41:28] Terry Flannery: You know, you could say, [00:41:30] wow, lucky Angela. Now what I mean is there are opportunities to lead. They'd go outside the scope of the marketing sphere. I had the opportunity to be one of the design leads along with one of our. At American university to [00:41:45] re-imagine the student experience and to design what that roadmap would look like.

[00:41:48] Terry Flannery: Those are very fulfilling opportunities that are outside the bounds of the CML role. I think you could make the case that it's possible that we'll see more CXO roles, chief experience [00:42:00] officers, and there's nobody better positioned to do that then CMOs. So it's another Sweezy C-suite position that provides another opportunity.

[00:42:08] Terry Flannery: I've seen CMOs that ascend to in an advancement model from being the [00:42:15] lead marketing person to the lead for all of advancements. So somebody like Binti Harvey at scripts now leads the entire advancement function, which includes marketing communications, alumni, and development or fundraising efforts.

[00:42:29] Terry Flannery: So that's another option. [00:42:30] The thing I really think needs to happen. And I know, you know, this in hearing from me in the past, I believe that CMOs would make great institutional presidents. And when I look at the prospectus for [00:42:45] many positions and you look at what the president needs to do and have experience in there, many of the things that we are already know how to do not all of them.

[00:42:54] Terry Flannery: And so I think in order to do. Seen as more than a non-traditional candidate, even if you like me, [00:43:00] you've worked in higher ed your whole life. You have to be able to develop some experience for financial management at a pretty large scale, develop some fundraising experience. So those are areas where you should ask for some more responsibility so that you build your portfolio and could [00:43:15] be seriously considered for those roles.

[00:43:16] Terry Flannery: And a couple of people have done it. But I'd like to see more and I think it was. Very helpful for the sector. I've seen more people send from that role to the presidency. 

[00:43:25] Jaime Hunt: I would really like to get one of those presidents on the podcast and talk about [00:43:30] how they've evolved their thinking.

[00:43:32] Jaime Hunt: I do know a lot of CMOs who are chiefs of staff to we're sort of, we have to be in all of those super secret meetings where you're finding out about things that could upturn your [00:43:45] institution and. You also have to be the kind of person that bridges relationships and brings people to the table.

[00:43:51] Jaime Hunt: And those I think are great skills for a chief of staff and institution. So I know you have some exciting news about your [00:44:00] career. Do you want to tell us a little bit about 

[00:44:02] Terry Flannery: that? Yes. I'm very excited that I've just accepted an appointment to be the executive vice president and chief operating officer for case, which is one of the largest global education associations in the.[00:44:15] 

[00:44:15] Terry Flannery: And really the lead for developing a professional home for advancement colleagues all over the world. And so in an integrated the advancement model, which case embodies they provide professional development opportunities for [00:44:30] people in marketing communications, alumni relations, and fundraising.

[00:44:34] Terry Flannery: And I'm going to. Working with the executive leadership team, supervising for the areas that represent kind of the key areas of revenue, development and growth. We've [00:44:45] just completely appended our business model and recalibrated it in some really interesting ways to redefine how we do our work in the field.

[00:44:54] Terry Flannery: And some components of that will allow us, we believe to double our [00:45:00] revenue in the next five years. So very. To really think about what we've learned from virtual experiences to develop professional opportunities, professional development opportunities that make sense to do so digitally delivered.

[00:45:13] Terry Flannery: There's a really [00:45:15] exciting career journey framework. That's part of the strategic plan where we've thought about the skills and the capacity. For people at every stage of their development. And now we are aligning the educational programs to go along with that. So you could be a [00:45:30] CMO, who's building your team and they want to think about how they can continue to grow professionally and develop opportunities.

[00:45:36] Terry Flannery: You'll be able to look at this career journey framework for marketing professionals and say, oh, you've got this and this, maybe you ought to think about this program as a next [00:45:45] step. And if you're a case member, they can register for the program or the conference. So it's going to be. I really exciting time.

[00:45:51] Terry Flannery: And it represents for me a through line in my interests of late to really help the field mature. And [00:46:00] to think about the development of my colleagues and their influence at institutions at a very broad level in an organization that's got 97,000 professionals all around the globe in 80 countries. At more than [00:46:15] 3,100 institutions.

[00:46:17] Terry Flannery: I'm looking forward to taking my leadership abilities to a new level of influence in an area that I care deeply about some very exciting, 

[00:46:26] Jaime Hunt: this is really exciting. I mean, you're going to be able to have such [00:46:30] an influence on the careers of so many people beyond, like you said, 97,000 people. That is tremendous.

[00:46:38] Jaime Hunt: And when I think about the, that through-line piece, where you talking about taking people through all levels of their career, to have an [00:46:45] opportunity through case to grow and learn and develop that's, that is just really exciting sounding work. I am congratulations, I think as a person who's been a member of case for 17 years, that.

[00:46:56] Jaime Hunt: Really exciting to see case evolve [00:47:00] and hopefully thrive over the next, you know, several years and continue to evolve. 

[00:47:05] Terry Flannery: So July 1st 

[00:47:07] Jaime Hunt: I'll be July 1st. Yes. So this is this your first role outside of higher ed? [00:47:15] I mean, I know it's higher ed adjacent, but well, I would still consider 

[00:47:18] Terry Flannery: it very much in the sector.

[00:47:19] Terry Flannery: So it does include. Advancement professionals at the secondary schools, independent secretary, secondary schools, but the, a very large part of the membership and [00:47:30] audience, two thirds of it are higher education institutions. So I don't see myself as lead, leaving higher ed. I see myself as going to a leadership role in the profession.

[00:47:40] Terry Flannery: That's going to give me greater influence to develop. 

[00:47:44] Jaime Hunt: That's [00:47:45] awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. So, thank you so much for your time today. Terry, do you want to tell us a little bit about where people can find your book and find you online? 

[00:47:54] Terry Flannery: Sure. So the book is easily available. If you search how to marketing university, they'll come right up.

[00:47:59] Terry Flannery: It's [00:48:00] available on Amazon. It's also available@thejohnshopkinsuniversitypressandjustctrlpress.edu and either placing the course. I think we've mentioned before, is that [00:48:15] a notified that cork board slash master report and find me on. And at Twitter is at, 

[00:48:26] Jaime Hunt: I love your hands. Thank you so much, Terry. [00:48:30] And thank you so much for listening.