The CRM Is Implemented - Now What? Considering the Value of 3rd Party Components… (Part 1 of 2)

Full Transcript

Mickey Baines: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of CRMimprov. Jamie, good to see you again. Good to hear you again. 

Jaime: Thank you. It's nice to be heard, Mickey, nice to see you and hear 

Mickey Baines: you as well. Well, we've got a great episode. This is part one of a two-parter. We don't do many two parters, but I wanted to get some perspective from different practitioners [00:01:00] with different viewpoints, different perspectives.

Different campuses, all of that. I've had some conversations with folks. I've been even debating with my own, uh, in my own head, which anybody who knows me knows that probably happens a lot. . Um, how's that going? Yeah, , it's a losing battle. That's what I can tell you. Um, so, uh, thinking of, of clients who continue to grow on their crm, you know, We're getting questions of what about a, a third party product that we could potentially add in?

Should we do that? You know, that's just a common question We get maybe more common now than it used to be. Probably. Cause almost everyone at this point has a C R M and our, you know, model is. Really focused on helping clients trying to get through, uh, implementation and then continuing to grow on the platform.

So, it's a good question. It's a question I want them to have. There's not always a clear answer. Um, I hate giving the, the biggest. Most common used, uh, consulting answer out there, [00:02:00] which is, it depends. It depends. , oh, I hate, I hate having to say it. Um, it's, I feel like, you know, you know, there are certain things I don't like saying when we're working on a prospective client that, that I always feel like is a salesy thing to say.

Mm-hmm. , it depends. It's such a consultant thing to say and I hate it, but yeah, it really does depend and. Rather than me giving an answer, I want to have some other perspectives on it. And so I have one of my longtime friends, gosh, from way back in the day when, when I was, uh, working directly in higher ed, you know, this year is my 24th year as a working professional, and it's right at half, 12 years direct in higher ed, 12 years consulting at this point, the dark side, as I.

We have with us a, a dear friend of mine who, uh, we were just talking before we hit record. We met, it probably was 2004, probably the fall of 2004. But, uh, way back in my time as a practitioner. He was on the dark side at the time and now he's gone back to [00:03:00] the. Light side. Is that the, the fun side? The real side?

Yeah, the hardworking side. You know, ? Um, 

Jaime: I don't like the implications 

Mickey Baines: of that statement. I don't either. I regretted it when I said it, but, um, it's out there. But, uh, Lynn Lipkin is joined us. Lynn Lipkin is the Associate Vice President. Information technology at the University of the Arts, uh, Lynn is I, is it lifelong or a long time resident of 

Len: Philadelphia?

Pretty much lifelong. I took a few years away. Um, 

Mickey Baines: yep. Uh, came right back. Lynn has, and Lynn's had time working with student information assistant products. He actually even worked at Canadian company, so there's. Throw that out there. He did spend time with us for a period of time before he was at the university arts.

Um, he left institution joined us, was our first, what I would call true technical expert. Technical strategist at the firm that we hired and had a great opportunity to come at the university arts, uh, for so years ago and is still there. Our conversation with Lynn today, I really. Lynn, I'm [00:04:00] go, I'm gonna hammer you and pound you some good questions here.

I want your perspective from an IT standpoint about CRM platforms. Do we, should we have institutions really focused on a single platform that does it all or piece milling together? Uh, what may be perceived or actually be better functionality with multiple products, uh, coming together and, and just understand your perspective on it.

So Lynn, welcome to the. 

Len: Thanks. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. It's good to 

Mickey Baines: see you. So good to see you as well. Uh, we, we've not seen each other since before the pandemic, I don't think. Right. Not even on video or anything. We've not bumped into one another or 

Len: I don't know if we had a conversation or two.

Uh, professional one. Um, yeah. With some of our folks at the University of the Arts, but 

Mickey Baines: were we on video for that? Maybe. If it was, it was early on. Yeah. Uh, the pandemic. Yeah. It's been a long time. I think this is the 

Jaime: equivalent of a podcast hug that we're ha that's happening right now. I think that's what's, that's in front of us.

I, [00:05:00] I actually wanted to say just one thing and then I'll probably be quiet for most of the time, but I think it's great that you guys met before. Most people who are working in admissions were even alive. . 

Len: Thanks. Thanks so much, man. 

Mickey Baines: makes me feel real young. Thank you so much, Jim. Uh, uh, uh, so, so Lynn, let's just dive.

One platform, multiple tools. Plug you together. What your immediate reaction, what 

Len: is it? Well, Mickey, I have to, um, take, take your lead from the beginning of this, uh, introduction. Just say it depends. . 

Mickey Baines: So we're not alone, Jamie. We're not alone. 

Len: Yeah, I mean you. Well, thanks for joining us today on crm . You know, there's, um, You know, it depends what, what an institution's resources are and what its needs are.

And, uh, you know, specifically, you know, how sophisticated they are as an operation. Uh, there's so many CRMs out [00:06:00] there. Um, and it could be hard when, you know, each department will want their own. because, because the bells and whistles of any specific product will, you know, will, will speak to their, to their office an advancement.

C r m will speak to advancement, admission. C r M will speak to admissions, et cetera, et cetera. You know, the, it's always an uphill battle from an IT perspective to get people. Bought into a consolidated c r m because everybody feels like they're making a little bit of a compromise or, or a big compromise, um, depending on, on what platform is the leading candidate.

And of course, the, the, the challenge from an IT perspective, from my perspective, typically has been to communicate to those constituencies about the challenges of what it means to have multiple CRMs and to get those. Data connections and that data flow working, it's not an equal. Argument for different [00:07:00] offices.

So the, the, at the top of the funnel, you got the admissions office, they don't suffer when, when the down the upstream data doesn't come to them cuz there is no upstream data from the institution's perspective. But at an advancement office, for example, can, can really suffer if, uh, if, if the data isn't managed well across that student development life cycle.

So 

Mickey Baines: I've. Ever really thought about it in those exact terms in terms of how the data flows and how that doesn't impact admissions the same way as it does advancement and, and even student success at that point, um, as well. And while I understand and, and talk a lot with clients about the importance of data, but haven't really put it into that perspective, It's not the same issue for admissions because they're generating a lot of that data from the beginning, whether it's through a list or some legion or an application.

Um, they're creating it. They don't have to worry about getting it in there and getting it out [00:08:00] isn't their problem because they don't necessarily need it as much as everyone else needs it. 

Len: Um, well, and they have their own issues with data because they've gotta. Data from whatever sources they have, but, but typically the CRMs that cater to them will already have pre-built connectors and import tools and things along those lines.

And I'd say even further is that it's worse the further you are down the funnel. because there's a degradation of data as you move from, uh, ad admissions to enrollment. And then there's an another degradation of data as you move from enrollment to, to advancement. And so, so when you're that far down the, the path you've, your, your data has already gone through the dryer a few times and has faded a little bit, I guess is, is the metaphor.

Mickey Baines: Great analogy. Laundry, uh, data. and the flow of data. One consideration. Going back to the other factors, you talked about resources, let's, let's talk about [00:09:00] resources. Um, you've been on the purchasing end, uh, of products before. Could it be, I don't wanna say typically, it's not like you've been through it 20 times, but do you find that it might potentially be more economical for single platform versus mul piecing multiple things together?

I'm sure there's a lot of variance in that, but. from a purchasing perspective, do you see a difference? 

Len: Well, one of the challenges on the purchasing perspective is that. Um, departments will often look at the price, the license cost of a piece of software, and not necessarily at the maintenance cost. And to the extent that they need support from it, or to hire someone internally to, you know, an admissions office or an enrollment office or an advancement office, you know, that there's, they're not always thinking about about the, the human costs.

And I can't tell you the number of times where I've seen, you know, Implement a system [00:10:00] and then a year later post a job for, you know, a systems admin or a systems analyst or something to be embedded in that department. Um, and it's out of, you know, not really understanding that because if you knew it in advance, you, that person would've been hired.

To help implement the system, cuz they'll, they know it much better than if you'd hire them sort of after it was built. And they don't really have a say in, in how it was, uh, how it was implemented. Um, the, the other cost then becomes, you know, certainly from an IT perspective, it's cheaper to have one person that understands your C R M platform than it is to.

One or many people, depending on the complexity of your operation, understanding the platforms themselves, uh, and multiple platforms and, and how, how they differ from one another and keeping them straight in your head about how, how things work and, you know, how addresses are handled or email addresses are handled in one system versus the [00:11:00] other can be very, very different.

Um, I think actually the, the biggest, the bigger resource concern. From my perspective, if you really want that, and I, and I hate this phrase just as much as you hate the, it depends phrase, but the, the 360 view of the, the, of the student , um, every, every vendor will say, we give you a 360 view. The real challenge is that, you know, when you're, when you're sending that data through the laundry cycle, you have to make choices at each.

As far as what data moves from one system to the next and what's the system of record and how often that gets updated and, and creating mechanisms by which those systems are connected and kept accurate is a, is a huge lift. And to the extent that you have. CRMs in place. That's a really big job. [00:12:00] 

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Len: and you already have integration challenges between CRMs. ERPs and other systems that you have to worry [00:13:00] about, and you're talking about having multiple CRMs, certainly at a large, larger institutions, I, I tend to be, you know, my, my employment has been more at smaller institutions, but, but I know from some of my colleagues at larger institutions that, uh, and I won't name this particular university, but they are undergoing a.

You know, a consolidation project to bring their 12 CRMs down to three. Um, and, you know, I just can't even imagine what, you know, what that looks like now, you know, when you have a school of nursing and you have a, you know, a, a school of engineering or something along the side, like maybe those CRMs don't need to be in the same place, but when, when the end, other end of the funnel is advancement, like imagine the, the challenge of, of like distilling.

you know, half a dozen or more different CRMs worth of enrollment information into one, into one advancement database. And it's, and that takes a ton of resources and, and, [00:14:00] and creates a ton of problems and, and creates a challenge where you have to chase down the, the, the data, uh, uh, integrity. And that that's always an uphill 

Mickey Baines: battle.

And we haven't even thrown up terms like l m. Right in. Right. Pulling that, which a lot of people want. And, and when you talk about degradation of data, you know, who knows what you're gonna get when you start pulling data out of an l m s. Uh, and when you look at how various faculty members use it, different ways and report or input data for some courses, not all, some faculty don't touch it, some do.

Um, and what that does, 360 view, um, that you might have a 360 view, but it's kind like looking up at the sky on a cloudy night, . Um, there's, you're not gonna see anything. Um, and I agree and I'll agree with you, Elaine. That's one of my buzzwords I wish would go away. Um, and it's so hard to achieve a [00:15:00] real.

360 degree view of that, of a student's experience. It is. So 

Jaime: we haven't asked a buzzword question in a while, Mickey and I think Len actually just did it without being asked. . . I think that's his, that's so we used to ask this question, what's your least favorite buzzword that's used in the industry? And I think that the way that you reference that,

I mean, that's perfect. Yeah. Because that is one of those things, you know, it's like, uh, I, I get so frustrated sometimes, you know, thinking of, of calm flows and things like that, because every school has the same points they're talking about. Right. The, like, there's very little variation. And if, and from your perspective there, it sounds like, Every vendor that's telling you about, you know, data perspectives and things like that, is using that as their, that's their lens, or, you know, offering you that vantage point.

It's like, well that doesn't make you unique anymore. So put it on the books, Mickey, 

Len: we got another one and, and maybe the engineer in me objects to that as well, because 360. Is implies a circle. Mm-hmm. , which is a two-dimensional [00:16:00] object, but, but you know, you got three, like what's the spherical view is really, maybe the better way to say it.

Ooh. You see an all 360, but in 360 ti whatever. I don't know what the right formula is for that, 

Jaime: but it's not even, it's not even Right. It's a metaverse view. 

Mickey Baines: That's , right? Metaverse air first 

Len: folks meta. Universal view of you. . 

Mickey Baines: I like spherical better, Lynn, go ahead. And as soon as we are done with this, you go 

Len: register your trademark.

Yeah. There's a reason I'm not in marketing , so I don't think that would've a lot of traction. There's a reason 360 gain popularity, but it's just not right. Anyway, you know, and the other challenge, I alluded to it before is that there's the people have different stakes in that data flow. Um, so I, I mean, I'm dealing with an issue right now where, you know, the admissions office set up, uh, some data.

I [00:17:00] can't remember if it was like country or, you know, something very basic, and the codes that they chose didn't match the codes in our e R P, so it just became this huge lift. just for something basic like, you know, the, the students country of, you know, citizenship or something like that. And imagine you're trying to capture things like, you know what someone's extracurriculars, right?

A country of citizenship is gonna be a standardized list. But, you know, you, you do things like extracurriculars or grade point averages or things along those lines that are, that are much more, um, fluid, um, as you know, in terms of their data types. And it becomes, IM. You, you 

Mickey Baines: brought up a, a bad memory for me when you, you know, a standardized list.

So are seed code. , but not everybody has an institution is using standard seat codes in their ssis s because they, before they had a standardized list, they created their own, how many duplicate institutions are in there with different record [00:18:00] numbers? And, and we've, we've gone with an institution who took six weeks to make a decision on do we go with the standard seat code list now or do we continue to use our custom list that we have and which is realistically.

Least painful and most beneficial. I mean, in trying to find the blend of those two issues. Yeah. Six weeks just yeah. To make that determination. 

Jaime: Um, that's, that's, I mean, I think I, I think you and I have talked about that one before already, Mickey, but that to me still. Like when you have a standardized list that just kind of is a universal list.

I just don't understand other than like the ease of use part. Like why would you adopt your own, you know, your internal list. I just don't get that. But I also know when I first was a director of admissions, the first one of the things I had to deal with was like source coding first. Source coding. And that's like another one of those ones that go, oh, my word is like all over the place.

And then you get a new. Admin or whoever's keying in the information, oh, I'm, there's no source code for this event that we went to. I'll make up a new one. Then you have like [00:19:00] 90,000 source codes at the end of, you know, when you start switching over to your next c r m. It's 

Mickey Baines: hysterical and, and that makes sense to the person who created it.

If you're lucky, it makes sense. Beyond to the team. But when you start, we're talking about degradation of data and you start passing that information along, that sure as heck isn't gonna make sense to the next group who sees it. Um, and then you add another group to it, um, it gets chaotic. And then you add someone like me to the mix because I will say there's the first origin of source, but I care about what was the source that made 'em take an action that.

like that's what you, I I kinda wanna know the trigger sources, not just the 14 of the touchpoints because they're 14. I, I dunno the timing. I wanna know what made them do at, at that moment, and which is not always what everyone else wants. So you, you insert an idea like that and now is that field even still used as the origin source and Right.

It was for some it wasn't For others, you didn't create another lead field or you've, now you've got three different lead fields like. We could go down a, we [00:20:00] could go down a really deep rabbit hole right here. . Um, yeah, 

Len: no, I mean, it, it speaks to a couple of points. Um, the one is, you know, when I mentioned it depends on what kind of resources you have.

I mean, the immediate thought that comes to everyone's mind, I'm sure as they're listening to that, um, was, was money. But you know, the. The presence and sophistication of a data governance, um, operation within your institution. Is, is really paramount and that that is a resource you have at your disposal that that can help you implement multiple CRMs and be better off with multiple CRMs if you really have a strong data governance operation, um, in your organization because then you don't fly off in, in million different directions.

We had a running joke. Um, my, my first job in higher ed was, was, uh, consulting and implementing e r p systems at universities. And we had a running joke that, you know, every institution we ever [00:21:00] visited was, was, you know, was so much different than every other one. Um, but in exactly the same way, right? They were all exactly the same and, and maybe it was one or two or three or 4%.

You know, diff difference, like some, you know, a, a institution might have a special, you know, something that was unique in terms of a, um, you know, adult ed program or, or study abroad or, or something along those lines. But, but 99% of what they were doing was exactly the same and everybody felt the need to, to try to.

Um, stretch the e r p to, to do something that, that sort of met someone's individual preferences. And you'd always end up with those, you know, 800 source codes and like, you know, there's one source code for a north facing billboard and then one source code for a south facing billboard . And, you know, and, and just, I mean, you wouldn't believe some of the crazy.

Configurations that, that people would come up [00:22:00] with in the name of sort of, you know, it's because our institution is unique, um, which people talk themselves into when they're really not. 

Mickey Baines: And, and I'm glad that you actually brought up the governance. I see people interested in it. They don't always comprehend how it's gonna work, the true need for it.

I think that's a great example of how far it can get. That thought, um, process. I've also. Where governance groups have gotten too far. Um, you know, you, you've, you've never had a billboard before, you'd like to have a code for a billboard. Ooh hmm. that we, we'll put that on the agenda for review and approval.

Um, our next open slide is for February. Um, and so we'll make a decision then, and if we approve it or go into the queue and by April we'll have that source code, add it. That doesn't help anyone at that. I could go on a soapbox. And [00:23:00] this, we were talking about keeping me under control lid, um, , keeping this calm demeanor.

But I've seen the, I've, I've literally seen someone say, Hey, we need to add a field to an integration, pull one extra data point and that, that takes 10 months to do. Um, and at that point, , you are more of a hindrance to the tactical team that has goals they need to achieve than you are a help. And what happens in those scenarios?

Most of the time that I see cuz I normally get called in, well after that's happened, is there's workarounds created and then they need something else that's gonna take months since they create another workaround. And next thing you know, you've got 15 workarounds. They're all band-aids, and instead you need gauze.

I'm the Galls dealer, um, , and you have to come in to try to fix this. And, and that's not an easy thing to do because then you've gotta really have some hard talk with folks at the governance, and you gotta have a hard talk with people who actually are in the system and making these bandaid things. Um, and it creates a lot of issues.

And that's sometimes with one or [00:24:00] two systems, and not even talking multiple CRMs or, or, uh, if you have a different platform provider for your student success than you do for your admission crm. That in itself is a, you know, just another challenge. To make it difficult. But that said, um, well, and 

Len: I'll, what I'll say to respond to that is that, you know, in my consulting life, you know, I've, I've only worked for three different institutions on the, the quote unquote light side.

But, um, in my consulting life, have probably worked with, you know, more than a hundred, um, and. Data governance tends to be on the more, on the lack of sophistication level than, than on the other end of the spectrum. Although I've, I have seen both. Um, yep. So the rarest is, is the doing it right way , yes. I can't claim to, to be better than anyone in this.

I don't, we don't do it the right way. At my current institution or at my last institution. It's a, it's something that I can't, [00:25:00] it can't just do. It has to, it has to really. You know, build trust and build, um, skillsets within the whole institution to get there. Uh, it takes a long 

Mickey Baines: time. The, the business owners have to understand, realize, and buy in.

And I, I, I have had this thought that, you know, maybe they need to be the ones driving governance, um, because they get impacted by the governance decision. Potentially the most, not necessarily when you, when you, if a governance group says, Hey, we wanna bring in 14 new tools, then obviously it's gonna be impacted there.

But a lot of times in these decisions, especially tactical ones that are inside the tools that already exist, they're the ones that are impacted. And if they help drive that, then it might lead to a healthier, more responsive and effecti. Group, process, committee, whatever you wanna call that campus. These, you know, Lynn, I, I, I, I, I feel like we could talk, probably talk another two [00:26:00] hours that we've, we've really just started scratching the service.

I think we might ask you back on it, uh, in the new future so we can continue this and dive in a little bit more. Um, but I think we've, we've just started hopefully opening. Other folks eyes and start to understand all of the backend work that needs to occur. I will tell you folks listening in part two, we're gonna, uh, be talking to someone, uh, from the enrollment management side, um, on the end user side, the business owner side, to get a little bit of their perspective.

To understand their wants, needs and desires. And, and from there, we'll, who knows? There may be part 10 by the time we're done with this show, , um, , this 

Jaime: could be a in itself. See that look in his eyes, that little glimmer sometimes . Yes. He starts talking about source coding and influence codes and all that stuff.

It's like 

Len: lookout world. Well, I can already think of a part three to be honest with you, and it's, you know, I don't want to really start this conversation because it's, it could take, it could take another 20 minutes, but, You know, the, the compromise [00:27:00] between the sort of one giant c r m, um, and the, you know, every department having its own is, are, are, you know, the platform-based solutions and things like Salesforce and the mm-hmm.

and the he I solution that they're, they're trying to push for and it's. I don't know if they've achieved it yet, but it's certainly is trying to offer the best of both worlds that every department gets its own c r m, but they're, they have a shared data model that, that enables some of that, that data flow from, from system to system.

Um, I think they, I think they're still probably a long way from, from making that. You know, bringing that to fruition. And there are other, you know, there are other vendors out there that are trying to do the same thing. So anyway, that's for part three. There, there, 

Mickey Baines: that's right. And there, there is a race.

Uh, I think for that, um, yeah, we, we see it in an experience that, Quite a bit. But if nothing else through, whether it's three parts or 10 parts, we will have a good spherical view , of, of, of [00:28:00] the choices you have when you think about your growth in, in your institution's lifecycle when it comes to c r m. So, uh, Lynn, thank you as always.

Um, For being someone that we can trust and lean on and give some honest feedback and and thoughts on these. And so good to see you again for everyone else, thanks for listening for another episode. Looking forward to part two of this conversation on CRM platforms. Jamie, you wanna take us out? I would love 

Jaime: to, Len, thanks for your time and, uh, listeners, we'll see you next time on CR Improv.

Mickey Baines: Hey, I, Zach, you're from Enrollify. I [00:29:00] hope you enjoyed this episode of CRMimprov. If you liked this episode, do us a huge favor and hit that follow and subscribe button below. Furthermore, if you've got just two minutes to spare, we would greatly appreciate you leaving a rating and a review of this show on Apple Podcasts.

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